Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours Discussion (C10 / ZG1000 / 1000GTR) => Accessories C10 => Topic started by: Slybones on August 12, 2011, 04:54:10 pm

Title: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 12, 2011, 04:54:10 pm
I have had the Tokico 6 pot calipers on the stock rotors for quite a long time. And given how well they worked I have not been in a huge hurry to blow money on 320mm rotors. Back when zrxmopar was building the brackets, he and I worked out a trade of parts, where I scored the brackets for the 320mm rotors. Had these sitting out in the garage for quite some time. I figured someday when the stock rotors wore out I would upgrade at that time.

I have been keeping an eye out for 320mm rotors and even started that Chinese knock-off thread a while back. One of the things I observed was used factory rotors going for $100 range each on ebay. Thats still $200 for factory rotors that are used, some even say warped in them. For a hundred bucks? The knock-offs look better. And just not ready to pay $350-$500 for killer 320mm wave rotors unless the stock ones are toast and MUST be replaced.

Then one day not too long ago while searching for ZZR1200 Rotors, I found a thread on the ZG Fanatics forum that listed a ZZR site that was selling brand new ZZR1200 parts. The claim was they purchased 5 ZZR1200 crate bikes for the motors, and were selling the remaining parts on ebay. -- They listed a pair of brand new ZZR1200 320mm factory rotors for $200 shipped. This is now competing with the knock-offs in terms of price. No they are not wave design, but at least a known product as they are factory momma K rotors.

I think these 6-pots were ideal for 310mm rotors. They are a little big for the 300mm rotors. With the pad aligned all the way at the front of the surface area, they are a bit larger than the rotor and have a funky wear pattern to be aware of. With these 320mm rotors and the extra surface area, the pads are located at the outer edge of the rotor with the outer edge of the pad. There is extra surface area left over the pads are not using. They could be even bigger yet.

All in all the Rotors are a bolt up swap. You need brackets to move your existing calipers out further to accommodate the larger rotor.

Some info from the calipers:

The 320mm rotors are thicker as well as larger diameter. New thickness on stock listed as 4.5mm, and 5.1mm for the ZZR. Mine measured right at 5.1mm. Min thickness for stock is 4.0mm, and 4.5mm ZZR.

There one was a post (debate) on the forum ages ago where some said the 320mm rotors had no more pad surface area, just the surface area is moved out farther from the center. I supposed overall some of this depends on the calipers and pads, but purely from a rotor point of view, the extra 20mm adds quite a bit of surface area. 1.20 inches for stock and 1.35 inches for ZZR.

The drill pattern is different. The stock drill pattern was somewhat directional, and the rotors have an arrow on them pointing the direction they are supposed to rotate. ( notice mine are backwards. Rode then that way for 78K mi ). The ZZR ones have no directional arrow that I could find.

Did a small test ride last night and to work this morning. They have a whole 25mi on them. So it is hard to compare at this time. Have to give a report later.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 12, 2011, 04:55:26 pm
The stock rotors
(http://home.comcast.net/~slybones/Concours/images/IMGP6480.JPG)


The ZZR1200 Rotors
(http://home.comcast.net/~slybones/Concours/images/IMGP6492.JPG)
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 12, 2011, 04:57:02 pm
Here are the rotors themselves

(http://home.comcast.net/~slybones/Concours/images/IMGP6481.JPG)

(http://home.comcast.net/~slybones/Concours/images/IMGP6482.JPG)
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 12, 2011, 04:59:34 pm
With the calipers I held them up to the stock rotors and measured the distance from the outer edge of the rotor to the inside edge of the pad surface are, then set that on the ZZR rotor for comparison.

(http://home.comcast.net/~slybones/Concours/images/IMGP6484.JPG)
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 12, 2011, 05:01:18 pm
Brackets. ohhhhh.......

(http://home.comcast.net/~slybones/Concours/images/IMGP6486.JPG)
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 12, 2011, 05:15:09 pm
stock rotors new 4.5mm or .177". Min thickness is 4.0mm or .157". Mine measured at .168". So right in about 50% wear. No warping, etc. I have a fellow COG member interested in them. I'll give him a smokin price on these. So the best part for me is the upgrade will cost even less.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: wild man on August 12, 2011, 05:34:34 pm
So the 320's yield more bracking surface, do the pads develop a lip as is the case for those of use using the OEM rotors with Nissin/Tokico calipers?  Where did you get the brackets for the 320's?? 
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Greg on August 12, 2011, 05:37:30 pm
Could you trace the new & old brackets to a piece of paper so i can make a set?  i'd owe ya a cold beverage (or two). 

let me know.  Thanks.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 12, 2011, 06:11:53 pm
So the 320's yield more bracking surface, do the pads develop a lip as is the case for those of use using the OEM rotors with Nissin/Tokico calipers?  Where did you get the brackets for the 320's??

Well I am not 100% positive that the pads will not develop a lip on them, like they do with the stock rotors, since I only have 25 miles on them. But from the alignment of the pads on these rotors I dont not believe it weill be a problem.

I got the brackets from zrxmopar, who is no longer making them.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 12, 2011, 06:20:03 pm
Could you trace the new & old brackets to a piece of paper so i can make a set?  i'd owe ya a cold beverage (or two). 

let me know.  Thanks.

One minor problem with this approach.

The initial dozen or so people who initially ordered these had to send the 6 pot calipers to zrxmopar for machining. I assume my brackets would only work with 6 pot calipers that are also properly machined to match.

Later when the 4 pot caliper brackets were made, the 4 pot brackets did not required any caliper machining.  After that zrxmopar went back and redesigned the 6 pot brackets so they did not require any machining either. This is for '94 up C10. For the 86-93 he only made 4 pot brackets ( that I recall ) and these did not require machining either. A set of these would be the ideal brackets to try and copy.

But for those of us who were the first early adpoters of this great mod, we sent our calipers off for machining as well as brackets. This would not be ideal, as you will have to figure out the caliper machine work too.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: GF-in-CA on August 12, 2011, 09:59:19 pm
Could you trace the new & old brackets to a piece of paper so i can make a set?  i'd owe ya a cold beverage (or two). 

let me know.  Thanks.

Greg,

Did you get my PM from a few days ago?
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Greg on August 12, 2011, 10:34:51 pm
Ah, yes i did.  just looked.  Thank you!  I'm in no hurry, so it's good.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Rev Ryder on August 13, 2011, 06:33:16 pm
I've been running these rotors from www.zzr1200parts.com in Canada for about three or four years now.  I've also bought a few other pieces from them.  Their stuff is "new take-offs" as they were dismantling zzr1200s to get the engines and electrics only.  IIRC they still have lots of plastic left too if anyone needs zzr1200 stuff.  I am running them on my ZZR1200 front rim and ZX14 forks on the turbo bike and squeezing them with the 14's radial calipers. Major stoppage!

(http://inlinethumb27.webshots.com/46234/2356883220080494746S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: GF-in-CA on August 13, 2011, 06:52:22 pm
I am also running 320 mm rotors, which are the stock size for the ZX9 front end I have.

(http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/46596/2186483110101812480S500x500Q85.jpg)

I am running 4 pot Tokico calipers from a GSXR 600, which are the same as for the ZZR1200.  This is about as good as it gets for brakes on the Connie, short of the ZX14 radial calipers that the Rev is running.  The GSXR calipers have a larger piston area than even the 6 pots.  If anyone wants to make their own caliper adapters, I recommend using the 320 mm rotors, because the pad fits, as Slybones stated, and you don't have to worry about weird pad wear.  If I were to make my own brackets, and had the later model front end, I would do what Centex did

http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,28288.0.html (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,28288.0.html)

Very neat, and doesn't require a machine shop.   :great:

BTW, I got my rotors used, and haven't had any problems with them.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 15, 2011, 05:09:01 pm
Few notes so far....

Lever is hard as a rock. Had to change the knob from 1 to 2 and might go to 3.  -- I recall this long time ago when I first installed the 6 pot calibers and had new pads, etc. Somewhere along the lines I ended up turning the know back to setting 1.  I have used the bungee cord stuff, and bleed them too.  Not sure if it was just pad wear, or what, but with it all new and fresh fuild, etc its now back to that rock hard lever.

Probably the biggest difference now is the amount of effort for light braking at a normal stop. You barely squeeze the lever. This will take some getting use to. Seemed like with the 6 pots on the stock rotors, it had much better braking than stock. Better brake feel and easy to modulate the brakes, but I dont recall them being overly touchy. -- These are borderline touchy. 

When I practiced my panic stop yesterday in the park 'n ride. These things stop.

Overall between the calipers and the rotors the calipers is where its at.  I think going from stock rotors / calipers to stock rotors and 4/6 pot calipers is a bigger improvement in braking, than the improvement adding 320mm rotors in terms of braking power. There might be an improvement in braking power going to the 320mm but is less dramatic. There is an improvement in control and effort. Also the 320mm rotors fit better with the pads, thicker which might help with warping, etc. Overall its worth the upgrade.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 15, 2011, 05:17:26 pm
Got a little bit of a clicking noise. Dont really notice under speed. But at parking lot speeds, if I lightly move the front brake lever on and off very lightly, I can hear what sounds like the pads clicking against the rotors.  Might have to do with that rock hard lever and the little effort is takes to engage this things. But I have not heard this before. This is a new sound to figure out.


Also these drag a little. when I installed the tire last week and had no calipers or pads on yet, the tire rotated quite easily and freely. Yesterday while doing the CC investigation I got messing with the speedo cable. Got the wife to sit on the bike and lean back so the front tire was off the ground. Thought I would just spin the tire and she would see the speedo move. Its has not really hard, but is just didnt spin nice and free like. These drag some. You can hear it pushing the bike in and out of the garage. Doesnt seem bad, but different compared to the old pads that I just removed.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: GF-in-CA on August 15, 2011, 06:33:50 pm
Slybones,

Just a couple thoughts on your clicking/ dragging.  The first thing that comes to mind when you mention clicking in the caliper is pad movement.  Is it possible that the retaining pins for the calipers pads are a little worn (OK, a lot worn), and the clicking is due to the slop in the pins?  Also, check to see that the pins are fully engaged, and not loose.  It won't take much for you to hear/ feel a click.  Edit:  Just looked at the pad design for the 6 pot calipers, and it looks like the pad floats on the pin in the rotor rotation direction (as do most caliper pads, now that I think about it  :(), so the pin would not be the culprit.  I would still try to find out if the pad is moving.

Did you inspect and/ or clean the caliper pistons?  If not, your dragging may be due to a stuck/binding piston.  I've read of this being an issue with the 6 pots (and some of the 4 pots), especially in wet conditions, due to corrosion.  It would only take one of them sticking to cause dragging.

HTH,
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 15, 2011, 07:26:36 pm
Will give both these ideas a look. I did inspect and clean as best I could, but no I didnt rebuild them.

Searching for rebuild kits for Tokico 6 pot calipers I have only seen a few kits available from the UK.  ??

I have also found a few threads on forums about rebuiding these. For reference only, mine looked nothing like these. Mine are nice and clean in comparison. Not that it could not be sticking, but wow.

http://www.tlzone.net/forums/performance-enhancement/112276-how-overhaul-tokico-six-pot-callipers.html
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: GF-in-CA on August 15, 2011, 08:37:52 pm
Slybones,

I don't think you would necessarily have to rebuild them (unless they looked like the ones in your link... pretty nasty  :o), just make sure they are free of corrosion and/ or gunk, which it sounds like you did.  The only other thing I can think of is maybe one of the pistons did not get pushed back all the way when you were fitting the pads, and whatever kept it from moving all the way in is keeping the piston in a position to make the brake drag slightly.  Maybe test for drag with each caliper separately to determine if one is worse than the other.  Just thinking out loud, HTH.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 16, 2011, 12:08:41 am
Well freeway traffic was light on the way home and I rode the last 2 mi off the freeway just using the rear brake. Touching the front brake rotors when I got home its the right side that is dragging. It was warm. Left side was cold. Probably gonna drive the truck tomorrow and them come home early so I can get into it. And have some time. This evening is full up.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on August 16, 2011, 01:49:02 am
I have tokiko 4 pots and 320's from a zx11 with shawns adapters. Had them for about 3-4 years. wow, real brakes - I'm reminded every time I ride a stocker... Steve
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: wild man on August 16, 2011, 11:02:04 am
Steve

Any thought on making some of those 320mm adaptors  ^-^
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on August 16, 2011, 11:13:34 am
  Not that i haven''t considered it (GREAT farkle; another is the lowering rocker) , but I'll tell you why I have chosen not to make the adapters. The fact is that I didn't develop them, and to copy them for profit is against my personal ethics. I have developed a number of products both for the concours and in other venues, and I really don't appreciate someone copying my work and then making money on it, so I don't do it. I know the adapters are a wanted item, and it's fine if someone else wants to jump on it, but for me, well, I have to look at myself in the mirror each morning. Copying someone else, or profitting from thier R&D efforts just wouldn't sit well with me. I don't need money bad enough to compromise my ethics on that.  ;) Steve
 
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: wild man on August 16, 2011, 12:11:24 pm
I can appreciate that

However I was thinking there really is a lack of interest on Shawns part to pursue this any further, at least thats what I could recall.  A pair of plates is really not that big of a concept and I'm sure he's a great guy, maybe he could be pursued for
permission or a blessing of sorts?

Whatever you decide is ok by me :beerchug: 
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 17, 2011, 01:36:30 am
Well removed the cover off the back and checked the pads. The outside pad was floating nicely. The inside pad appeared pretty tight. I removed the pads with the caliper in place. My thought was to squeeze the lever a few times so the pistons would extend out way more that they were. AS for the most part they were nearly pressed in all the way. 5 of the 6 moved out and one was stuck. I then removed the caliper and split in two. Took 3 of the pistons on the one side out and cleaned them up and got everything looking pretty good. Then other side I could only get 2 of the 3 out. The one was pressed in there and it wasnt cooperating. So squirted brake clean all over it and toothbrushed it as best I could. Put it back together and hope for best. -- I am hoping that when it all bleed and the remaining pistons have all moved into position that last one will have no choice but to move and what cleaning I did will be enough.

Test ride seems to show its NOT sticking. Woo hoo. Although I did not go very far. My goal will be to ride to work tomorrow, use as normal. Ride to the freeway in the evening use the front and then so the same as yesterdays test. Not use the front for the last bit of freeway and home. Check the rotor temps to make sure they are both cool. Get the wife to sit back up on the pass section with the front up and check tire spin.

Thanks
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: WillyP on August 17, 2011, 02:53:36 am
If you have one piston sticking in the future, to get it out use a clamp(s) on the moving pistons to hold them in while you pump out the stuck piston.

(http://gallery.rantthisspace.com/index.php?cmd=preview&sfpg=cHJvamVjdF8yMDAxL2h5ZHJhdWxpY3MvKjAxMi5qcGcqN2M2OTQzYTNhOWMwZjBkMDM2M2E4NWM0YzVmZjdlOWI)
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Rev Ryder on August 17, 2011, 04:40:19 pm
If you have one piston sticking in the future, to get it out use a clamp(s) on the moving pistons to hold them in while you pump out the stuck piston.

([url]http://gallery.rantthisspace.com/index.php?cmd=preview&sfpg=cHJvamVjdF8yMDAxL2h5ZHJhdWxpY3MvKjAxMi5qcGcqN2M2OTQzYTNhOWMwZjBkMDM2M2E4NWM0YzVmZjdlOWI[/url])

BINGO!  I just use cheapo C-clamps and wood, but same idea.  sometimes only a chunk of wood will suffice. 
Once i get the pistons out, I use a small hone or 400 grit sandpaper to smooth the bore.  I then mount the piston on an electric drill and polish it as well.  THis will make sure they don't try to hang up.  It makes a huge difference especially when they are rusty and pitted.  As long as the pits are localized outside the seal area it'll work great.
To polish I chuck up something to use as a mandrel and wrap electrical tape on it to get a snug fit to hold the piston.  SOmetimes a socket extension and socket works good.
Here's a large Torx socket chucked up backwards in my drill and wrapped with masking tape to fit.
(http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/47214/2316257490080494746S600x600Q85.jpg)


Here's a gnarly piston for ya.
(http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/47704/2470257500080494746S600x600Q85.jpg)

It wound up looking like this and still works great six years later.
(http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/46679/2857832070080494746S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: WillyP on August 17, 2011, 06:16:09 pm
Nice work, Rev, although a mirror polished finish isn't the best. I use a 3m hand pad, commonly called a scuffy or scratch pad in the autobody industry. It leaves a super fine scratch pattern.
Here is the inside of the rear brake cyl:

(http://gallery.rantthisspace.com/index.php?cmd=preview&sfpg=cHJvamVjdF8yMDAxL2h5ZHJhdWxpY3MvKjAwOC5qcGcqZWY5OTgzMzhmZjQ2YTRhY2VmNDMzZjI2ODQyNWMyMDI)

Here is what I use:
(http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UuZjcFSLXTtMxf_O8TXEV76EbHSHVs6EVs6E666666--)


Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Rev Ryder on August 17, 2011, 06:50:37 pm
Nice work, Rev, although a mirror polished finish isn't the best. I use a 3m hand pad, commonly called a scuffy or scratch pad in the autobody industry. It leaves a super fine scratch pattern.
Here is the inside of the rear brake cyl:

([url]http://gallery.rantthisspace.com/index.php?cmd=preview&sfpg=cHJvamVjdF8yMDAxL2h5ZHJhdWxpY3MvKjAwOC5qcGcqZWY5OTgzMzhmZjQ2YTRhY2VmNDMzZjI2ODQyNWMyMDI[/url])

Here is what I use:
([url]http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UuZjcFSLXTtMxf_O8TXEV76EbHSHVs6EVs6E666666--[/url])

Sorry, I disagree Mr. Willy, sir.  This ain't piston rings on pistons running high speed on steel bores we're talkin', it's rubber seals in aluminum bores sealing against low speed steel pistons.  A red Scotchbrite finish is finely abrasive to the seals, but not so much as to cause real issue, particularly with steel parts. 

I know my HIGH polish was serious overkill and that the 1000 grit sandpaper I used before the polish was too, but a 400-600 grit finish is probably about optimum (work/return).  It is my opinion that all brake pistons would be finely poiished from the factories except for expense and the fact that they want your stuff to wear out and not because the coarser finish is better.  THat's my.02 until you prove to me a rubber seal will work better on a coarse finish or until the logic of "smoother = less leakage" can be repudiated.  The inside of the bore was honed to 400 grit in a relatively crosshatch pattern to help retain lubricant alongside the piston, but then there's no need for sealing there... just appropriate clearance and guidance for the piston.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: WillyP on August 17, 2011, 07:10:20 pm
Quote
but a 400-600 grit finish is probably about optimum
I think the maroon pads are around 600~800 grit equivalent. I am not sure, but I think you just agreed with me.  (http://www.prepare4descent.net/slider_popcorn.gif)

The reason I was taught not to use a mirror polished finish on hydraulic sealing surfaces is that the seals won't break in, and will run dry and wear off, instead of wearing in. The fine scratch pattern retains a tiny amount of lubricant, to lubricate the seals, while preventing pressurized fluid from squirting out.



In fact, hydraulic parts do become polished from use under certain conditions. And then they need to be resealed and honed. Note I am talking about a circumferential scratch pattern, not one parallel to the travel.


Quote
Surface roughness values less than 5 micro-inches are not recommended for dynamic seals, however, as an extending rod will be wiped completely dry and will not be lubricated when it retracts. The surface must be rough enough to hold small amounts of oil.
---http://www.allsealsinc.com/parker/dynamic-oring-sealing.pdf (http://www.allsealsinc.com/parker/dynamic-oring-sealing.pdf)
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Rev Ryder on August 17, 2011, 08:34:35 pm
Quote
but a 400-600 grit finish is probably about optimum
I think the maroon pads are around 600~800 grit equivalent. I am not sure, but I think you just agreed with me. [\quote]

Nope, didn't happen.  Maybe optimum was not the ideal choice of words.  Perhaps adequate would have been better.  And red Scotchbrite is about 240-320 grit at the finest possible.  The gray is much finer at around 600 I believe.  Having been in the bodyshop biz for 25 years I know that the coarsest sandpaper you can paint over with a BC/CC paint is 400 and with many colors (silvers and beige metallics in particular) you need to step up to 500 or 600. You cannot paint directly over red Scotchbrite scratches with almost ANY color of BC/CC, but you can the gray pads and even the gray pads with Ajax (but Bon Ami is too coarse).  Now I'm not a hydraulic expert by any stretch and would defer to you on this except that EVERY single hydraulic system I ever encountered in the body shop that I can think of that uses rams of any kind or a hydraulic seal; i.e. jacks, porta-powers, frame machines, engine hoists, dozers, screendoor closers, etc. use a ultra-polished surface for the seals. Even engine parts like pumps for AC and power steering, alternators, crank seals, all run on polished surfaces.  The seal itself polishing the surface is a bad thing and creates a groove that requires machining or a speedi-sleeve to repair.

Quote
The reason I was taught not to use a mirror polished finish on hydraulic sealing surfaces is that the seals won't break in, and will run dry and wear off, instead of wearing in. The fine scratch pattern retains a tiny amount of lubricant, to lubricate the seals, while preventing pressurized fluid from squirting out.


 Even Connie's forks are such a system and you certainly don't want to go after those with a red Scothbrite pad for fear of ruining them (yes, they will scratch from it and scratches are leaks despite their small size).  Scratches are the death of seals, not the life of them.  Most are designed to allow lubricant to a certain point and not beyond.  If none at all could get past that point, that would be the ideal.


EDIT TO ADD:  DO yo uknow how tiny those 5 micron scratches are?  I believe that IS a mirror finish.  Also your source called for a "orange peel" of 5 micron which is not actually visible scratches but appears as a textured surface under magnification.

EDIT TO ADD MORE:  I just looked up the size of grits we used.  The European papers which we used in our shop are coarser than American papers by a small degree, however 5 micro inches would be roughly equivalent to a P3000 grit or finer.  Now, that said, it also depends on the surface being abraided as to how large the actual scratch will be.  You COULD potentially get a scratch in stainless steel or high carbon steel of only 5 micr inches using a P600 paper providing it was done by machine burnishing rather than hand sanding(hand always produces bigger scratches).  The same paper on an aluminum surface will produce much large scratches. THe softer the material, the larger the scratch.  If the material is worked wet (lubricated) while burnishing the scratches will also be deeper from the sandpaper, but may be shallower overall.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Rev Ryder on August 17, 2011, 09:01:37 pm
In fairness I'm reading more of your article right now.  It IS educational for me.  Not sure it changes anything, but...
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: WillyP on August 17, 2011, 10:11:47 pm
We aren't talking about painting, and if you have scratches (lengthwise) in your forks you should definitely polish them out. Use a maroon hand pad or 400 ~ 600 grit cloth. (not paper) Forks use a lip seal and you probably could use a much finer grit if you wanted to. The brakes on the Connie use a square o-ring.

You can't, practically, duplicate a factory finish in your garage. Look closer at any new parts and they are likely to be hard-chromed, not mirror polished.

The hydraulic tools used in the body shop run at a very high pressure compared to brakes or forks. A 10 ton porto power has a maximum of 10,000 psi, IIRC. Typically tractors run a max of 2,500 psi, larger equipment like bulldozers and excavators up to 3,500 psi.
No idea about the forks but typically automotive brakes see a max of 1500psi, so i would guess the bike is in that range.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 18, 2011, 01:26:14 am
Well on  a different note, both sides cool this evening. And I dont hear the clicking that I hear the other night. The other night it was fairly loud and was in direct sync with the movement of the front lever. No more.

But it does seem that one of the pads is loose compared to the ones I removed. Could be because they are clean. As Gary mentioned with the 6 pots they float some on the pin. I expected to see them move in and out slightly. But up and down I was thinking the pad would be a pretty tight fit and have to be slid into place just so. Seems to fit looser than I was expecting.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Rev Ryder on August 18, 2011, 07:58:46 pm
Slybones:
Your noise/no-noise somewhat confuses me. I want to say that it sounds reasonably normal, but then you say some pads are tight and others loose... that too I want to say is normal enough since some pistons always retract a little more or easier than others.  If the brakes are working well and not making noise (at least not some kind of alarming sound) then I am prone to say it's OK.  I too have had the brakes make a sound when the slack comes out of the caliper/pad/rotor combination from squeezing the lever, but it could never have been heard over the engine as it was very slight and was a bit like a light clicking sound though that's not really how I would have tried to describe it.  SO I'm not really sure if what you're hearing IS normal or not.  How loud is this noise?



WILLYP:
OK, I've read your article and it certainly backs up the need for a finely textured or scratched surface though I think the scratches they are talking about are incredibly slight.  As for "mirrored" finish... no, you are correct, not the most desired as long as you are talking about the removal of all scratches.  However, I believe your article outlines that you CAN have a mirror shiney surface AND still have an "orange peel" texture that will retain adequate oil for seal preservation. Once again I thank you for an education.  But I'm NOT going to pull the piston out of my back brake and scuff it up, I'm still waiting to see when the original 1986 seals are going to start leaking.


PS and I still think red Scotchbrite is too coarse for the brake pistons.  I KNOW it's too coarse for fork tubes and their seals.... they will leak like a sieve.   DAMHIKIJK    :-[
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 18, 2011, 10:10:23 pm
4 Parts:

Functionality:
These things work great. Even the other day when I hear the clicking and the piston was sticking, stopping was not a problem. The 6 pot calipers with stock rotors worked great. The 6 pots with 320mm rotors works even better. Now to the point of having to retrain myself on how hard to squeeze the lever for normal braking.

Piston Sticking:
I believe the sticking problem is now resolved. Thanks for the tips of getting the stuck piston out. I will remember for future if needed. But what cleaning I was able to do, seems to have done the trick for now. The front wheel spins freely like it should. The test where I did not use the brakes and check the rotors for heat, now shows both rotors cool ( versus one cool and one quite warm ).

Clicking Noise:
The clicking noise I was hearing didnt seem normal to me. It was loud enough to hear with the hemlet on, ear plugs in, at low speeds like 20-25. It was in direct response to squeezing the lever. No lever squeeze, no click. I could not really tell on the freeway, but at that speed and in traffic I am not screwing around too much. At 20 in the park in ride, or local street with no other traffic I could take and flick the lever on and off and hear the click with direct relationship to when the pads would make that initial bite. -- With everything fixed, I dont hear the clicking any more. -- Also note that despite the click the brakes worked like crazy.

Pad Fit:
With these Tokiko 6 pots it is not necessary to remove the calipers to pull the pads in and out. You can remove cover in the back, remove the retaining pin and slide them straight out the rear. In doing so the pads need to be pretty much aligned just right. You can see the cover in this pic, held in place by 2 allen heads.  This is a thin material that is somewhat spring loaded. When screwed down it fits in and provides tension on the pads some. Its not a ton of pressure but I think keeps them in place and from flopping all over.  You all can educate me on the exact details.

In any case with the old pads there was little slop in the pad fit. With the new pads there seems to be a bit more slop. This is of course with the cover in place. Without the spring loaded cover they move a bit for sure. -- A bit refers to thousands of an inch. Like maybe 20 or 30. Not quite wafer thin, like the .006 or .008 feeler gauge we use in the valve adjust. But not like a 1/8 inch or any thing that extreme.  I have not measured it. Just thinking out loud here at work, I was expecting something like .010 and I got .030 and the extra .020 made me think hmmmm....  -- This is my second set of pads with these calipers so I have two data points. Compared to the first data point, this is looser than the first. Its mostly a curiosity. Very well could be normal variance in pads. 

http://home.comcast.net/~slybones/Concours/images/Dscn3907.jpg
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Rev Ryder on August 19, 2011, 01:25:58 pm
With that description of the noise it certainly wasn't normal.  Glad to hear it is sorted out now.  I have a set of the Tokiko calipers stashed away somewhere... can't remember if they are 4 or 6 pistons though.  They were from a 2002 ZZR1200 that I purchased the front end off of.  Still have most of it lying around since I opted to go to the ZX14 forks instead.

No doubt your brakes are really giving you a clamp on the whoa stuff now.  320mm rotors offer a lot of leverage and some big squeezy calipers with good pads will make you rethink the whole "grab a handful" of brake thingy.  This really is one of the best improvements a person can make to a Connie pretty easily IMHO.  Glad it's finally going your way and congrats on the new stopping power.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: WillyP on August 19, 2011, 02:17:05 pm
You can send them to me, Rev, and I'll hone them with a scuffy for you. To make sure they aren't leaking I'll also test them thoroughly on my own bike at no extra charge.

I figure a 100k or so ought to do it. ;)
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Rev Ryder on August 19, 2011, 02:54:06 pm
You can send them to me, Rev, and I'll hone them with a scuffy for you. To make sure they aren't leaking I'll also test them thoroughly on my own bike at no extra charge.

I figure a 100k or so ought to do it. ;)

You want the forks too?  THey are new take-offs from zzr1200parts.com   >:D 
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: WillyP on August 19, 2011, 03:26:53 pm
I reckon I could help you out with them too.  :)) Do they need honing too?
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Slybones on August 19, 2011, 03:28:05 pm
No doubt your brakes are really giving you a clamp on the whoa stuff now.  320mm rotors offer a lot of leverage and some big squeezy calipers with good pads will make you rethink the whole "grab a handful" of brake thingy.  This really is one of the best improvements a person can make to a Connie pretty easily IMHO.  Glad it's finally going your way and congrats on the new stopping power.

I agree. I have had the  6 pots on stock rotors for 4 plus years. These have hands down be my favorite mod. There are  many things I really like, 7th gear unit, other SISF products, etc. But these are the best, even with stock rotors. 17" tires might be the only exception. I have not gone there yet. But thats about the only thing I can think of that might even come close to knocking front brakes off the top list position. Now with 320mm rotors I am wondering it even that might be a tall order.
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: Rev Ryder on August 19, 2011, 03:42:04 pm
I reckon I could help you out with them too.  :)) Do they need honing too?
In the worst way.    :truce:
Title: Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
Post by: WillyP on August 19, 2011, 03:47:44 pm
If they are that bad maybe they could be stripped and re-chromed.