Author Topic: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade  (Read 10809 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6129
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2011, 02:53:36 am »
If you have one piston sticking in the future, to get it out use a clamp(s) on the moving pistons to hold them in while you pump out the stuck piston.

Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics

Offline Rev Ryder

  • Officer
  • I Need a Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 8784
  • We came. We saw. We Concours-ed.
    • Presbychuck
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 7235
  • Membership Level: Executive Director
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2011, 04:40:19 pm »
If you have one piston sticking in the future, to get it out use a clamp(s) on the moving pistons to hold them in while you pump out the stuck piston.



BINGO!  I just use cheapo C-clamps and wood, but same idea.  sometimes only a chunk of wood will suffice. 
Once i get the pistons out, I use a small hone or 400 grit sandpaper to smooth the bore.  I then mount the piston on an electric drill and polish it as well.  THis will make sure they don't try to hang up.  It makes a huge difference especially when they are rusty and pitted.  As long as the pits are localized outside the seal area it'll work great.
To polish I chuck up something to use as a mandrel and wrap electrical tape on it to get a snug fit to hold the piston.  SOmetimes a socket extension and socket works good.
Here's a large Torx socket chucked up backwards in my drill and wrapped with masking tape to fit.



Here's a gnarly piston for ya.


It wound up looking like this and still works great six years later.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 04:42:33 pm by Rev Ryder »
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6129
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2011, 06:16:09 pm »
Nice work, Rev, although a mirror polished finish isn't the best. I use a 3m hand pad, commonly called a scuffy or scratch pad in the autobody industry. It leaves a super fine scratch pattern.
Here is the inside of the rear brake cyl:



Here is what I use:



« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 06:23:07 pm by WillyP »
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics

Offline Rev Ryder

  • Officer
  • I Need a Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 8784
  • We came. We saw. We Concours-ed.
    • Presbychuck
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 7235
  • Membership Level: Executive Director
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2011, 06:50:37 pm »
Nice work, Rev, although a mirror polished finish isn't the best. I use a 3m hand pad, commonly called a scuffy or scratch pad in the autobody industry. It leaves a super fine scratch pattern.
Here is the inside of the rear brake cyl:



Here is what I use:


Sorry, I disagree Mr. Willy, sir.  This ain't piston rings on pistons running high speed on steel bores we're talkin', it's rubber seals in aluminum bores sealing against low speed steel pistons.  A red Scotchbrite finish is finely abrasive to the seals, but not so much as to cause real issue, particularly with steel parts. 

I know my HIGH polish was serious overkill and that the 1000 grit sandpaper I used before the polish was too, but a 400-600 grit finish is probably about optimum (work/return).  It is my opinion that all brake pistons would be finely poiished from the factories except for expense and the fact that they want your stuff to wear out and not because the coarser finish is better.  THat's my.02 until you prove to me a rubber seal will work better on a coarse finish or until the logic of "smoother = less leakage" can be repudiated.  The inside of the bore was honed to 400 grit in a relatively crosshatch pattern to help retain lubricant alongside the piston, but then there's no need for sealing there... just appropriate clearance and guidance for the piston.
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6129
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2011, 07:10:20 pm »
Quote
but a 400-600 grit finish is probably about optimum
I think the maroon pads are around 600~800 grit equivalent. I am not sure, but I think you just agreed with me. 

The reason I was taught not to use a mirror polished finish on hydraulic sealing surfaces is that the seals won't break in, and will run dry and wear off, instead of wearing in. The fine scratch pattern retains a tiny amount of lubricant, to lubricate the seals, while preventing pressurized fluid from squirting out.



In fact, hydraulic parts do become polished from use under certain conditions. And then they need to be resealed and honed. Note I am talking about a circumferential scratch pattern, not one parallel to the travel.


Quote
Surface roughness values less than 5 micro-inches are not recommended for dynamic seals, however, as an extending rod will be wiped completely dry and will not be lubricated when it retracts. The surface must be rough enough to hold small amounts of oil.
---http://www.allsealsinc.com/parker/dynamic-oring-sealing.pdf
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 07:18:50 pm by WillyP »
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics

Offline Rev Ryder

  • Officer
  • I Need a Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 8784
  • We came. We saw. We Concours-ed.
    • Presbychuck
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 7235
  • Membership Level: Executive Director
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2011, 08:34:35 pm »
Quote
but a 400-600 grit finish is probably about optimum
I think the maroon pads are around 600~800 grit equivalent. I am not sure, but I think you just agreed with me. [\quote]

Nope, didn't happen.  Maybe optimum was not the ideal choice of words.  Perhaps adequate would have been better.  And red Scotchbrite is about 240-320 grit at the finest possible.  The gray is much finer at around 600 I believe.  Having been in the bodyshop biz for 25 years I know that the coarsest sandpaper you can paint over with a BC/CC paint is 400 and with many colors (silvers and beige metallics in particular) you need to step up to 500 or 600. You cannot paint directly over red Scotchbrite scratches with almost ANY color of BC/CC, but you can the gray pads and even the gray pads with Ajax (but Bon Ami is too coarse).  Now I'm not a hydraulic expert by any stretch and would defer to you on this except that EVERY single hydraulic system I ever encountered in the body shop that I can think of that uses rams of any kind or a hydraulic seal; i.e. jacks, porta-powers, frame machines, engine hoists, dozers, screendoor closers, etc. use a ultra-polished surface for the seals. Even engine parts like pumps for AC and power steering, alternators, crank seals, all run on polished surfaces.  The seal itself polishing the surface is a bad thing and creates a groove that requires machining or a speedi-sleeve to repair.

Quote
The reason I was taught not to use a mirror polished finish on hydraulic sealing surfaces is that the seals won't break in, and will run dry and wear off, instead of wearing in. The fine scratch pattern retains a tiny amount of lubricant, to lubricate the seals, while preventing pressurized fluid from squirting out.


 Even Connie's forks are such a system and you certainly don't want to go after those with a red Scothbrite pad for fear of ruining them (yes, they will scratch from it and scratches are leaks despite their small size).  Scratches are the death of seals, not the life of them.  Most are designed to allow lubricant to a certain point and not beyond.  If none at all could get past that point, that would be the ideal.


EDIT TO ADD:  DO yo uknow how tiny those 5 micron scratches are?  I believe that IS a mirror finish.  Also your source called for a "orange peel" of 5 micron which is not actually visible scratches but appears as a textured surface under magnification.

EDIT TO ADD MORE:  I just looked up the size of grits we used.  The European papers which we used in our shop are coarser than American papers by a small degree, however 5 micro inches would be roughly equivalent to a P3000 grit or finer.  Now, that said, it also depends on the surface being abraided as to how large the actual scratch will be.  You COULD potentially get a scratch in stainless steel or high carbon steel of only 5 micr inches using a P600 paper providing it was done by machine burnishing rather than hand sanding(hand always produces bigger scratches).  The same paper on an aluminum surface will produce much large scratches. THe softer the material, the larger the scratch.  If the material is worked wet (lubricated) while burnishing the scratches will also be deeper from the sandpaper, but may be shallower overall.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 08:53:32 pm by Rev Ryder »
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie

Offline Rev Ryder

  • Officer
  • I Need a Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 8784
  • We came. We saw. We Concours-ed.
    • Presbychuck
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 7235
  • Membership Level: Executive Director
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2011, 09:01:37 pm »
In fairness I'm reading more of your article right now.  It IS educational for me.  Not sure it changes anything, but...
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6129
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2011, 10:11:47 pm »
We aren't talking about painting, and if you have scratches (lengthwise) in your forks you should definitely polish them out. Use a maroon hand pad or 400 ~ 600 grit cloth. (not paper) Forks use a lip seal and you probably could use a much finer grit if you wanted to. The brakes on the Connie use a square o-ring.

You can't, practically, duplicate a factory finish in your garage. Look closer at any new parts and they are likely to be hard-chromed, not mirror polished.

The hydraulic tools used in the body shop run at a very high pressure compared to brakes or forks. A 10 ton porto power has a maximum of 10,000 psi, IIRC. Typically tractors run a max of 2,500 psi, larger equipment like bulldozers and excavators up to 3,500 psi.
No idea about the forks but typically automotive brakes see a max of 1500psi, so i would guess the bike is in that range.
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics

Offline Slybones

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2633
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: 6953
  • Membership Level: Expired - Expired Term
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2011, 01:26:14 am »
Well on  a different note, both sides cool this evening. And I dont hear the clicking that I hear the other night. The other night it was fairly loud and was in direct sync with the movement of the front lever. No more.

But it does seem that one of the pads is loose compared to the ones I removed. Could be because they are clean. As Gary mentioned with the 6 pots they float some on the pin. I expected to see them move in and out slightly. But up and down I was thinking the pad would be a pretty tight fit and have to be slid into place just so. Seems to fit looser than I was expecting.
2003 Concours, 121K
2005 GL1800ABS, 52K
COG #6953, IBA 28004

Offline Rev Ryder

  • Officer
  • I Need a Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 8784
  • We came. We saw. We Concours-ed.
    • Presbychuck
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 7235
  • Membership Level: Executive Director
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2011, 07:58:46 pm »
Slybones:
Your noise/no-noise somewhat confuses me. I want to say that it sounds reasonably normal, but then you say some pads are tight and others loose... that too I want to say is normal enough since some pistons always retract a little more or easier than others.  If the brakes are working well and not making noise (at least not some kind of alarming sound) then I am prone to say it's OK.  I too have had the brakes make a sound when the slack comes out of the caliper/pad/rotor combination from squeezing the lever, but it could never have been heard over the engine as it was very slight and was a bit like a light clicking sound though that's not really how I would have tried to describe it.  SO I'm not really sure if what you're hearing IS normal or not.  How loud is this noise?



WILLYP:
OK, I've read your article and it certainly backs up the need for a finely textured or scratched surface though I think the scratches they are talking about are incredibly slight.  As for "mirrored" finish... no, you are correct, not the most desired as long as you are talking about the removal of all scratches.  However, I believe your article outlines that you CAN have a mirror shiney surface AND still have an "orange peel" texture that will retain adequate oil for seal preservation. Once again I thank you for an education.  But I'm NOT going to pull the piston out of my back brake and scuff it up, I'm still waiting to see when the original 1986 seals are going to start leaking.


PS and I still think red Scotchbrite is too coarse for the brake pistons.  I KNOW it's too coarse for fork tubes and their seals.... they will leak like a sieve.   DAMHIKIJK    :-[
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie

Offline Slybones

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2633
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: 6953
  • Membership Level: Expired - Expired Term
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2011, 10:10:23 pm »
4 Parts:

Functionality:
These things work great. Even the other day when I hear the clicking and the piston was sticking, stopping was not a problem. The 6 pot calipers with stock rotors worked great. The 6 pots with 320mm rotors works even better. Now to the point of having to retrain myself on how hard to squeeze the lever for normal braking.

Piston Sticking:
I believe the sticking problem is now resolved. Thanks for the tips of getting the stuck piston out. I will remember for future if needed. But what cleaning I was able to do, seems to have done the trick for now. The front wheel spins freely like it should. The test where I did not use the brakes and check the rotors for heat, now shows both rotors cool ( versus one cool and one quite warm ).

Clicking Noise:
The clicking noise I was hearing didnt seem normal to me. It was loud enough to hear with the hemlet on, ear plugs in, at low speeds like 20-25. It was in direct response to squeezing the lever. No lever squeeze, no click. I could not really tell on the freeway, but at that speed and in traffic I am not screwing around too much. At 20 in the park in ride, or local street with no other traffic I could take and flick the lever on and off and hear the click with direct relationship to when the pads would make that initial bite. -- With everything fixed, I dont hear the clicking any more. -- Also note that despite the click the brakes worked like crazy.

Pad Fit:
With these Tokiko 6 pots it is not necessary to remove the calipers to pull the pads in and out. You can remove cover in the back, remove the retaining pin and slide them straight out the rear. In doing so the pads need to be pretty much aligned just right. You can see the cover in this pic, held in place by 2 allen heads.  This is a thin material that is somewhat spring loaded. When screwed down it fits in and provides tension on the pads some. Its not a ton of pressure but I think keeps them in place and from flopping all over.  You all can educate me on the exact details.

In any case with the old pads there was little slop in the pad fit. With the new pads there seems to be a bit more slop. This is of course with the cover in place. Without the spring loaded cover they move a bit for sure. -- A bit refers to thousands of an inch. Like maybe 20 or 30. Not quite wafer thin, like the .006 or .008 feeler gauge we use in the valve adjust. But not like a 1/8 inch or any thing that extreme.  I have not measured it. Just thinking out loud here at work, I was expecting something like .010 and I got .030 and the extra .020 made me think hmmmm....  -- This is my second set of pads with these calipers so I have two data points. Compared to the first data point, this is looser than the first. Its mostly a curiosity. Very well could be normal variance in pads. 

http://home.comcast.net/~slybones/Concours/images/Dscn3907.jpg
2003 Concours, 121K
2005 GL1800ABS, 52K
COG #6953, IBA 28004

Offline Rev Ryder

  • Officer
  • I Need a Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 8784
  • We came. We saw. We Concours-ed.
    • Presbychuck
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 7235
  • Membership Level: Executive Director
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2011, 01:25:58 pm »
With that description of the noise it certainly wasn't normal.  Glad to hear it is sorted out now.  I have a set of the Tokiko calipers stashed away somewhere... can't remember if they are 4 or 6 pistons though.  They were from a 2002 ZZR1200 that I purchased the front end off of.  Still have most of it lying around since I opted to go to the ZX14 forks instead.

No doubt your brakes are really giving you a clamp on the whoa stuff now.  320mm rotors offer a lot of leverage and some big squeezy calipers with good pads will make you rethink the whole "grab a handful" of brake thingy.  This really is one of the best improvements a person can make to a Connie pretty easily IMHO.  Glad it's finally going your way and congrats on the new stopping power.
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6129
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2011, 02:17:05 pm »
You can send them to me, Rev, and I'll hone them with a scuffy for you. To make sure they aren't leaking I'll also test them thoroughly on my own bike at no extra charge.

I figure a 100k or so ought to do it. ;)
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics

Offline Rev Ryder

  • Officer
  • I Need a Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 8784
  • We came. We saw. We Concours-ed.
    • Presbychuck
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 7235
  • Membership Level: Executive Director
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2011, 02:54:06 pm »
You can send them to me, Rev, and I'll hone them with a scuffy for you. To make sure they aren't leaking I'll also test them thoroughly on my own bike at no extra charge.

I figure a 100k or so ought to do it. ;)

You want the forks too?  THey are new take-offs from zzr1200parts.com   >:D 
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6129
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2011, 03:26:53 pm »
I reckon I could help you out with them too.  :)) Do they need honing too?
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics

Offline Slybones

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2633
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: 6953
  • Membership Level: Expired - Expired Term
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2011, 03:28:05 pm »
No doubt your brakes are really giving you a clamp on the whoa stuff now.  320mm rotors offer a lot of leverage and some big squeezy calipers with good pads will make you rethink the whole "grab a handful" of brake thingy.  This really is one of the best improvements a person can make to a Connie pretty easily IMHO.  Glad it's finally going your way and congrats on the new stopping power.

I agree. I have had the  6 pots on stock rotors for 4 plus years. These have hands down be my favorite mod. There are  many things I really like, 7th gear unit, other SISF products, etc. But these are the best, even with stock rotors. 17" tires might be the only exception. I have not gone there yet. But thats about the only thing I can think of that might even come close to knocking front brakes off the top list position. Now with 320mm rotors I am wondering it even that might be a tall order.
2003 Concours, 121K
2005 GL1800ABS, 52K
COG #6953, IBA 28004

Offline Rev Ryder

  • Officer
  • I Need a Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 8784
  • We came. We saw. We Concours-ed.
    • Presbychuck
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 7235
  • Membership Level: Executive Director
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2011, 03:42:04 pm »
I reckon I could help you out with them too.  :)) Do they need honing too?
In the worst way.    :truce:
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie

Offline WillyP

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 6129
  • Live Free Or Die
    • Suncook Carpentry
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 8799
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: 320mm ZZR1200 Brake Rotor Upgrade
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2011, 03:47:44 pm »
If they are that bad maybe they could be stripped and re-chromed.
Smart people look like crazy people to stupid people.
pics