Author Topic: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!  (Read 25466 times)

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Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2013, 05:40:38 pm »
Have to agree that a quick release would be the best for ease of use.  At the very least, we need a way to capture that nut, and if you could find a way to keep it from spinning, we wouldn't need to put a wrench on it.  As for color, I'm with you on the matte black.

If you look at the photo in my post directly above yours, I think the little bracket/handle with the nut welded to it would be the easiest and simplest fix for that nut. It would be much easier to keep hold of the nut that way and since it's welded to that bracket, it obviously wouldn't spin. Although, I'm definitely up for other suggestions!

What about a finger-type joint with a fat bolt through it on the upper horizontal tube, like they do with removable door bars in car racing roll cages?

Hmmm, I'm not quite sure I completely understand what you mean. Could you supply a sample photo?

Offline Jwh360

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2013, 07:19:35 pm »
This is the type of joint I was referring to.  It's called a clevis joint.
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Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2013, 07:53:34 pm »
This is the type of joint I was referring to.  It's called a clevis joint.

Ohhhh, yes, a clevis. I'm familiar with that terminology. Now that may be something we can do. I'll certainly look into that. As long as the pin connecting the two pieces is hefty enough, that doesn't seem like it would detract too much from the strength of the guard. It should would be nice to be able to pull two pins and remove the entire guard for service...

Offline Jwh360

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2013, 08:05:55 pm »
Pins or bolts...either works!
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Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2013, 08:37:28 pm »
Just wanted to post another update on the Saddle Bag Guards! We changed one of the mounting points because the last design was a bit weaker than we'd like it to be. This design is quite a bit stronger. However, we may end up adding a small, 3rd mounting point that stems off of that upper point and reaches forward to that black mounting point directly above that silver-looking piece that holds the passenger peg. That would make it slightly less likely that that bracket on the upper mount would bend towards the bike during a drop.

Also, once we get the design set, we'll be re-adding that round support bar between the horseshoe portion of the rear guard.




Offline txfatboy

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2013, 01:05:53 am »
As far as the upper mount goes, why not have a short tab that installs at the engine mount location with a nut welded to the back of it then another short tab welded to the bar?
Woody

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Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2013, 01:37:38 pm »
As far as the upper mount goes, why not have a short tab that installs at the engine mount location with a nut welded to the back of it then another short tab welded to the bar?

You mean like a U shaped bracket that installs first, before the bar, that bends around and has the nut welded to the back of it then you install the cage on top? Something like that may work. In fact, when I first came up with this idea, I was trying to use a bracket that was welded to the actual upper bracket itself that bent around to the backside of that mount but it was just too difficult to get back there. However, a separate U bracket that gets installed first may actually work. I'll look into that this morning and report back.

Offline John_Atkinson

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2013, 03:05:45 pm »
Ryan, I have to say that I'm impressed with the diligence you're putting into this project. I am SUPER interested in this and can't wait for the final product!

John
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2013, 03:35:07 pm »
Ryan, I sent a pm, I have ideas. Steve
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Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2013, 04:29:10 pm »
Ryan, I have to say that I'm impressed with the diligence you're putting into this project. I am SUPER interested in this and can't wait for the final product!

John

Thanks, John! If you have any ideas regarding various design aspects, don't hesitate to join in on the conversation! We're always open to new ideas.

Anyhow, it does look like a U-shaped bracket for the top mounting point is going to work very well! What we're working on is a U bracket that bends around that top mounting point with a nut welded to the back of it. So, basically, you install that U bracket the first time and it stays installed from then on. Then, the guard itself will bolt to that U bracket via a single bolt that's easily accessible. It's basically a different iteration of the lower front mounting point. It's not quite a "quick-release" system but doing it this way will allow you to remove the guard within 2-3 minutes without having to fuss with accidentally dropping nuts each time you install/remove the guard.

Ryan, I sent a pm, I have ideas. Steve

Responded!

Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2013, 07:19:47 pm »
Alrighty, guys, I've spent some time looking more into this quick-release type of system. I was using the guard for the BMW 1200LT as a model (pictured below) because they have a pretty nice quick-release system on their guard. Now, this is something we could certainly incorporate but I'm just not sure that it's totally necessary due to how easy our guard is to remove already but I want to get your guys opinions. Doing a quick-release system like the BMW will definitely drive up the cost of the guards (by probably about $20-$30) because of the added steps involved. Also, the material cost will go up slightly because we'd have to use slightly thicker-walled material than we're currently using.

If you look at the picture of our current guard, the two bolts are easily accessible and would only take a few minutes to remove. If we were to change over to the quick-release system, the guard would probably come off a bit quicker but we're talking about a savings of maybe a minute or two per side. So, it's a question of whether an extra $20-$30 is worth saving a minute or two. What do you guys think?








Offline fred-houston

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2013, 08:01:52 pm »
In my opinion the quick release is not necessary since the mounting bolts are so easy to get to. 
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Offline Edward

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2013, 08:15:53 pm »
Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like the current design allows removal of the cage without removing the engine mount bolt (unless you want to remove the bracket)

Assuming this is true, it seems that having the quick release doesn't really gain very much given the bolt location.


If you still have to remove the engine mount bolt, it might be worth the extra cost just to avoid having to do that at all after the initial installation. I personally am not keen on removing that bolt every time I need to remove the fairing for maintenance.



Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2013, 08:31:32 pm »
In my opinion the quick release is not necessary since the mounting bolts are so easy to get to.

Awesome!

Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like the current design allows removal of the cage without removing the engine mount bolt (unless you want to remove the bracket)

Assuming this is true, it seems that having the quick release doesn't really gain very much given the bolt location.

This is correct and precisely what we were shooting for! There's a hidden U bracket under there that mounts to that engine mount and only must be installed once. From there, the guard attaches to another point on that U bracket which allows you to remove the guard with that single bolt while leaving that U bracket and engine mount alone completely.

EDIT: Oh, and I also wanted to mention that our current design will also allow for replacement parts to be used should the bike go over. You won't be required to repurchase the entire set, you can purchase only the replacement parts that are damaged.

Offline Jwh360

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2013, 09:03:46 pm »
Quote
This is correct and precisely what we were shooting for! There's a hidden U bracket under there that mounts to that engine mount and only must be installed once. From there, the guard attaches to another point on that U bracket which allows you to remove the guard with that single bolt while leaving that U bracket and engine mount alone completely.

EDIT: Oh, and I also wanted to mention that our current design will also allow for replacement parts to be used should the bike go over. You won't be required to repurchase the entire set, you can purchase only the replacement parts that are damaged.

Excellent and excellent!! :great:

Wish I was a little closer so I could drop in and see the progress.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2013, 10:39:11 pm »
all I can tell y'all is that you don't know what you're giving up by not opting for the quick release. Don't forget, taking stuff apart is easy, it's lining everything back up on re installation that's the PITA.  steve
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Offline Edward

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2013, 12:35:35 am »
Steve,


Your input is very valuable and highly respected here  :You_Rock_Emoticon: [size=78%]. [/size]


I wish you would expand on your insights and help MCE to provide us the best product possible. While I am cheap frugal like many COG folks, I am personally willing to pay a little extra to get the best product possible. It's why having you do my carb work is at the top of the list (if I can ever manage to convince myself to sacrifice a week+ without the bike  :motonoises:  [/size][size=78%]).[/size]


So please, Guru, explain what we don't know and how having a quick release will benefit us above and beyond the design that Ryan is currently proposing.


 :c017:




Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2013, 01:14:48 am »
all I can tell y'all is that you don't know what you're giving up by not opting for the quick release. Don't forget, taking stuff apart is easy, it's lining everything back up on re installation that's the PITA.  steve

There's really not much to line up besides the two holes (the one in the bracket that's permanently installed and the one in the bracket that's welded to the guard). The nuts are welded the back side of each bracket so all you have to do is line the two holes up and install the bolt. Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't get much simpler than that. Still, though, we haven't scrapped the idea of doing an actual quick-release as of yet. We're currently looking into what the cost differential may be so we'll know if it's worth it or not. If we're talking a difference of $10 or $15, we'll probably go your route but if its more like $40 or $50, I think it'd be better left as is. I'm still open to others' opinions on this, though.

Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2013, 01:23:05 am »
Steve,

Your input is very valuable and highly respected here

I wish you would expand on your insights and help MCE to provide us the best product possible. While I am frugal like many COG folks, I am personally willing to pay a little extra to get the best product possible. It's why having you do my carb work is at the top of the list (if I can ever manage to convince myself to sacrifice a week+ without the bike)

So please, Guru, explain what we don't know and how having a quick release will benefit us above and beyond the design that Ryan is currently proposing.


 :c017:

Forgive me, I'm on my phone and it's a pain in the butt to multi-quote so I had to post once for each response.

Anyway, I spoke to Steve earlier on the phone about it so he doesn't need to get into it all here unless he feels like he wants to. I completely understand where he's coming from and it is a great idea. As I said, we haven't scrapped the idea, we're just looking a bit further into it before we commit a bunch of time to mocking a set up.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2013, 01:42:11 am »
Ed Mac, so here's the "behind the curtain" story. I called Ryan today and suggested to do the "quick release" in a manner where there would be a permanently mounted bracket with a stub extending from it, and the actual tip bar would just slide over the stub, and a small screw would go through the side of the bar and threaded  into the stub.  That way the engine mount bolt stays put all the time, and the bar can be slid off by removing one small bolt, easily accessed outside the plastic.

Here's why.

I currently have Murphs tip over bars. I work on connies with bars alot. What a pita, it just drags the jobs out. Murphs (Rivco) bars have the bolt coming through the bracket into the bar from behind, as I understand Ryan is suggesting. It's slow to remove and reinstall, gotta finagle the plastic around so you don't scratch it up, gotta play finger gymnastics to thread the bolt, etc.

Complicated and slow when it doesn't have to be.

With a single bolt "quick release" removal and re installation cannot get any easier. Totally accessible, quick, and well thought out. An easy, simple to use design is always the best, plus it exudes professionalism.

 Look, anything that makes the bike easier to work on makes it more likely that needed maintenance will be done. We already have quick release tank hardware, quick removal side cover nuts, Quick oil filter adapters, why not some quick release tip over bars? Only makes sense to me.

 I do understand the final decision is going to be based on price, but I think the quick removal bars can be built for not alot of additional money, once the ideas get rolling.   :motonoises: Steve
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 01:51:00 am by Steve in Sunny Fla »
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Offline Edward

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2013, 03:08:48 am »
 :great:


Agreed on the maintenance issue, and I am certainly glad that bright minds do things to help me play with this erector set.



Offline mikejjmay

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2013, 10:00:28 am »
all I can tell y'all is that you don't know what you're giving up by not opting for the quick release. Don't forget, taking stuff apart is easy, it's lining everything back up on re installation that's the PITA.  steve

If we're talking a difference of $10 or $15, we'll probably go your route but if its more like $40 or $50, I think it'd be better left as is. I'm still open to others' opinions on this, though.


I guess the deciding factor for me on this would be $15 or $50 on top of what? If you are starting your price point at say $200, then $50 for a quick release is alot easier to swallow then say if your price point was $350 with another $50 on top.

With Steves model, the base and attachment points would be the same, the changes would come in the overlapping tube where the quick disconnect screw is located. Have you given any thought to offering 2 pricepoints? One lower price with a solid one piece unit, and a second price point (say $30 more) for quick release?

Offline fred-houston

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2013, 10:57:52 am »
You have the foundation with the brackets so why not do both and have the quick release as an option?  Some may be willing to pay more for it.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2013, 01:45:59 pm »
 From a manufacturing point, i don't see why the quick release option would be expensive. Let's look at the parts / labor to construct both ways

1) bolt on - there will be a bracket bolted to the bike with a nut welded behind the bracket mounting hole, and a bracket welded to the bar, and a bolt to fix them together. Look at the welding and hardware involved., along with build a jig to locate each bracket / bar for welding.

2) quick release - there's a single bracket bolted to the bike. there's a pipe or solid stud, maybe 1.5-2" long welded to it. It has a hole in it that's drilled / tapped. Or ff using a piece of pipe, it could be have a piece cut from the end - just a single wedge cut, which exposes a place to weld a nut in and exposes the hole so the pipe doesn't even need to be drilled. Now no drilling / tapping. Then there's the bar, with just one hole drilled crossways for the locking bolt. No welding on the bar, no extra bracket needed.

 So which is easier to manufacture? that's up to MC enterprises, it's their baby... :beerchug:  Steve
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 01:49:00 pm by Steve in Sunny Fla »
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Offline mikejjmay

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2013, 01:57:50 pm »
If you decide to go the option of catering to both (people who want quick disconnect and people who want solid), couldn't you just manufacture them all as solid, and then do a cut where they come out of the farings (upper and lower) and put a collar around the location of the cut with bolts through it to make it quick disconnect?

That way, you would not have to adjust your manufacturing process at all, and could just do it as an alternative for an extra $25 or whatever for each order.

Although I think most people will order the quick disconnect anyway.....