Author Topic: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!  (Read 26035 times)

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Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2013, 08:10:31 pm »
As the guard currently sits, I'm expecting price point to be in the neighborhood of $250. I definitely like the idea of doing a quick-release (and would prefer it, personally) and, as I said, we're still looking into it but cost is certainly a factor. It's not that the quick-release idea is tough, it's certainly something we can do, there are just a few extra steps involved which drive up cost. Instead of just welding the guard to the bracket, we'd have to weld a small portion on, lathe the bar so it can slide in, drill extra holes, make a few additional welds, etc. All of which sounds easy, which it is, but it does drive up the labor cost a bit. Now, I do like the idea of perhaps offering two different styles. That could definitely work as the design of the two would be extremely similar which would allow us to manufacture them simultaneously right up until the final steps where we add the quick-release system.

I'll discuss this with my Tech on Monday and see what we can do. It sounds like quite a few people would prefer to spend a little more for the quick-release system especially with a current price point of $225-$250. I'll get back to you guys on Monday when I have a better idea of how much extra we're talking for the integration of the quick-release system.

Thank you guys for your participation and ideas, though. It's nice to see a few more people getting involved.

Offline virtualdev

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2013, 08:49:46 pm »
That sounds like a great price assuming you are talking a front/rear set.  Cheaper than the Rivco/Murph's bars.  At that price point I'd expect many to choose the quick release solution.

 :popcorn:
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Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2013, 09:26:38 pm »
That sounds like a great price assuming you are talking a front/rear set.  Cheaper than the Rivco/Murph's bars.  At that price point I'd expect many to choose the quick release solution.

 :popcorn:

It's looking now like the cost may be closer to around $200-$225 but that's for the fronts only. The rears will most likely be in the neighborhood of $100-$125. So, our cost will be extremely competitive with Murph/RivCo but I believe our product is superior in a number of ways. Also, keep in mind that we'll be having a Group Buy once these parts are finished being designed which will save you an additional 10-20% off MSRP as well as free shipping, depending on participation.

So, at that price point I'm not sure if the added cost of a quick-release system is going to groove with the majority of C10 riders (although, it also depends on how much more a quick-release system would cost to implement which I'm still working on). I'd still prefer the Canyon Cage to have a quick-release design but price seems to be an extremely important factor (on this bike especially compared to others, it seems) so I'm trying to keep price at the forefront of our design decisions without skimping on quality. I plan on making a short video sometime today or tomorrow showcasing just how quick our current design is removed and reinstalled once the "permanent" brackets are in place which I'll post here. I'm hoping that will convince some of you who currently prefer a quick-release system that it's just not really worth the additional cost but we'll have to wait and see.

The nice thing is that we're designing the fronts to hold the bike far enough off the ground that you won't necessarily need the rears in order to protect the entire bike in the case of a still tip-over. The rears will only be needed if you would like protection against moving spills as well because the bike tends to wobble or rock back and forth sometimes during moving wrecks. Without the rear guards, this rocking motion will cause the rear bags to hit the ground thus causing damage. This rocking motion very, very rarely occurs during no-to-very low speed tip-overs thus eliminating the need for the rear guards. So, it's mostly a matter of what you're looking to protect against and how much you want to spend but it's nice being able to buy either the Canyon Cage by itself, the Saddle Bag Guard set by itself, or both together.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2013, 02:28:19 pm »
Are you being able to triangulate the fronts so that they won't fold back in a rolling crash like a true crash bar? If so, what are the possibilities of breaking the engine stanchions the bars are mounted to?

 Personally, I'd prefer a "crash bar" to a "tipover" bar, for obvious reasons. Currently tip bars cost plastic, I'd hate to see a crash bar that costs engines, but if it doesn't, that's a winner! Steve
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Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2013, 04:00:35 pm »
Are you being able to triangulate the fronts so that they won't fold back in a rolling crash like a true crash bar? If so, what are the possibilities of breaking the engine stanchions the bars are mounted to?

Personally, I'd prefer a "crash bar" to a "tipover" bar, for obvious reasons. Currently tip bars cost plastic, I'd hate to see a crash bar that costs engines, but if it doesn't, that's a winner! Steve


Currently we're working with two mounting points for the front guards. It's very tough to triangulate a third point on this bike as suitable mounting points are few and far between. There is a decent third point further back on the bike but it's a bit too close to the riders foot for my comfort. However, we're currently altering the design of the guard in a way that I believe will be much more resistant to bending backwards during a rolling crash than our previous, C-shaped design (and it's a sportier, better looking design as well) so a third point may not be necessary. You'll see what I mean when I upload a few pictures of the new design. It's a bit hard to describe how we're changing the guard but as soon as it's ready, I'll be sure to snap some photos and update you guys.

As far as the engine stanchions go, I believe they're safe. The way we have designed our interior brackets really beef up the strength. I mean, anything is possible in a hard enough wreck but I'd be extremely surprised if anyone damaged anything engine-related with these guards installed. Check out the picture below for a better idea of our bracket design. The red arrows point to where we have threaded holes and nuts welded to ease installation and the yellow arrow is pointing to the anchor that stops the bracket from twisting side to side during a tip-over. All of this is hidden when the fairings are installed except for a small portion of the exterior bracket where the guard mounts and will be powder coated black.



I'd rather have a crash bar as well the only thing is, it's nearly impossible to design a guard that can withstand the multitude of situations that can arise during an actual crash. With that said, these tip-over bars will certainly not cost plastic unless it's a rolling crash (and even then, it'll have to be a pretty violent one) as the guards hold every part of the bike off the ground except for the hero peg. However, every single crash is different and there are tons of factors that come into play (asphalt quality, weather, speed, traffic, rider experience, etc.) so it's very, very tough to prepare for them all. We normally say that our guards are designed for and will certainly withstand no-to-low speed tip-overs but we make them strong enough that they frequently stand up to much more violent wrecks as well, it just depends on the specific situation one finds themselves in. We just have to be very careful with that we promise they'll protect against. Check out the picture below of the guy on the C14 with our Canyon Cage and Saddle Bag Guards installed. Those bars were designed the same way these are being designed (essentially for tip-overs) but they saved this guy from literally thousands in repair bills due to a wicked wreck. The only thing that sustained damage (besides the guards, of course) was the mirror and a tiny part of the upper fairing which kept his repair cost (with labor!) unbelievably low. Doesn't get much better than that.



If any of you guys have a design in mind, an idea as to how to improve the current design, or a possible design that includes a third mounting point please don't hesitate to mock up a visual in paint or photoshop and upload it. That really helps us get a good idea of what you're shooting for so we can do our best to duplicate it. Text descriptions are okay if you don't have the means but a visual (even a rough, haggard one) really helps us understand what you're getting at.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 04:07:31 pm by MCEnterprises »

Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2013, 06:12:55 pm »
I have a design update for you guys! Here is the revised design we came up with and I like it a hell of a lot better than our original C-shaped design. This design is also stronger and less likely to bend backwards thus reducing the need for a third mounting point. Just a few things about the front-view photo with the red and white lines: The white line is a support we're considering adding to this guard to further stop the bar from bending backwards during a rolling crash (although the bar, as is, is quite sturdy and won't bend during a simple tip-over but we like to prepare for the worst if at all possible). This support would likely be a 1/2" bar instead of the 1" but we're open to suggestions. The red line is a design we were also considering instead of having that outer bar parallel to the fairing. We were debating between angling that outer bar in towards the bike or having it parallel to the fairing. One pro to having it parallel is for people considering adding highway pegs. If the bar angles in towards the bike, the pegs would most likely angle up slightly. With the bar parallel to the fairing of the bike, the pegs would stick straight out. Also, with the bar parallel to the fairing, the guard will better protect the bike should the bike roll over that initial hit point (which is tough to do usually only happens during rolling crashes. During a still tip-over, the bike will contact the bottom corner of the guard and come to rest there).

Also, don't judge the square brackets, tack welds, and sectioned (i.e. cut) bars too harshly as that will all be cleaned up once the design is finalized. Although parts of the bar will be welded sectionals that get sanded down, the bar will appear as a single piece when it's finished.

What do you guys think? Any opinions? If any of you guys decide to modify any of these pictures in paint or photoshop to showcase any changes you'd make, just keep in mind that the lower bend that bends towards the rear of the bike must be in that position (and that far away from the bike) to properly protect the bike.










Offline BritConc

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2013, 06:43:36 pm »
That design looks great, almost like a factory made fitment (I mean that as a compliment).

The only problem is that it makes my tip over bars look old fashioned.

Offline Edward

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2013, 06:48:31 pm »
I'm liking the look of this design as well. I'd be interested to see it with the cross brace fitted. :great:



Offline RodWpg

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2013, 07:45:33 pm »
where the bottom of the bar mates up the edges need to be rounded off or something like on the top of the bar....not sure if that makes sense without a pointer to show what I mean. The flat bar part is square and it doesn't match up nice to the mounting bracket
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Offline wile_e_coyote

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2013, 08:38:26 pm »
I like it.

Color choice dark Metalic Bronze to match my lower half.

Offline Egodriver71

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2013, 08:56:25 pm »
Nicer looking than the previous availability.

It would be nice to see a rearward tie in like you do on the C14.  But I understand that may not be possible with that HUGE fairing the C10 has!!!
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Offline Syntor

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2013, 09:05:56 pm »
Very nice looking, follows the contour of the faring.

SISF has a good point about the bars bending back, if you make the bar too strong it could break an engine, if you make it too weak, well it folds up.

Now, is it possible to bend up a transverse (left to right) reinforcing rod to go between the left and right crash bars?  That would be under the fairing and in amongst the exhaust plumbing.


Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2013, 09:09:02 pm »
Awesome! I'm glad to hear most of you guys seem to like where we're going with this. We're going to tack that support bar in place, illustrated by the white line, and see how it looks. It'll add some decent resistance to the bar bending backwards and won't cost much to implement so I think it'll be a worthy addition as long as it looks okay. I'm thinking a smaller diameter tube (perhaps 1/2") will look as that support bar piece.

where the bottom of the bar mates up the edges need to be rounded off or something like on the top of the bar....not sure if that makes sense without a pointer to show what I mean. The flat bar part is square and it doesn't match up nice to the mounting bracket

That definitely makes sense! As I stated in my post with the photos, all of that will certainly be cleaned up and rounded off once the design is finalized. We just leave things a little rugged through the design phase because things get changed frequently.

Color choice dark Metalic Bronze to match my lower half.

Unfortunately I think this bar will only be available in black powder coat like our other Canyon Cages. It's just too tough to match the colors right without a sample to give the paint shop. However, we can always leave the bar raw for you (at no extra cost) so you can have it painted locally, if you like.

Nicer looking than the previous availability.

It would be nice to see a rearward tie in like you do on the C14.  But I understand that may not be possible with that HUGE fairing the C10 has!!!

Thanks! Yea, we've been trying to find a 3rd point further back on the bike it's difficult on this bike. That's one reason we went with this specific design. Normally, the 3rd point is designed to keep the guard from bending backward during a rolling crash but this design is inherently harder to bend in that fashion. Additionally, that's why were considering adding that extra support bar. Just to give it a little more strength which will make it even more resistant to backward bending.

Now, is it possible to bend up a transverse (left to right) reinforcing rod to go between the left and right crash bars?  That would be under the fairing and in amongst the exhaust plumbing.

Unfortunately, that wouldn't work too well with our current design as it is. I mean, we could do it but it wouldn't really add much strength due to the position the transverse bar would have to be in and would drive up the cost quite a bit. The only place to go from one side to the other under the fairing is through the exhaust plumbing and that's too low on the bike. With the guard as it is now, that transverse bar would be about level with the lower mount (and forward of it, as well. It'd be in a weird position). The best way to strengthen the bar a bit would be to add that support bar I mentioned earlier that would run from the upper bracket to about the middle of the exterior vertical bar. I think we're going to tack one of those in place and see how it looks. I'll report back with photos once we do. Also, I'm hoping I can shoot that video showing how quick this guard is removed/reinstalled this afternoon as well.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 10:48:49 pm by MCEnterprises »

Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2013, 11:40:16 pm »
Here are a few shots of that cross brace piece being held in place. Now that I see it held there, I'm not as much of a fan of the look as I thought I'd be. However, your opinions are the ones that matter so what do you guys think?




Offline turbo-max

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2013, 12:22:17 am »
i like how it's looking so far.  :great:
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2013, 12:48:04 am »
i like how it's looking so far.  :great:

Me too.

 One of the funniest things I ever read on this forum, years ago, was a description of the Rivco bars looking like "the bolts in Frankenstein's neck"

 The  funniest thing I ever read was someone asking what the little window in the side panel was for. Another poster replied "that's where I keep my spare money"   Priceless.  ;) Steve
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Offline secarob

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2013, 12:49:19 am »
Now I am starting to like them.  :dance:

Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2013, 02:17:37 am »
Nice! So, you guys all think it looks better with that added support brace? We're still debating whether or not to keep it. It seems as though most people prefer it, though so I'm guessing it'll probably stay. I'll take a few additional pictures of it tomorrow morning once we get it tacked in place so there's not an arm in the photo. Also, we gently laid the bike over to make sure the front and rear guards contact the ground at the same time (and that nothing else touches besides the hero peg) so I'll upload photos of that as well.

Offline Syntor

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2013, 03:39:06 am »
The only place to go from one side to the other under the fairing is through the exhaust plumbing and that's too low on the bike.
Yes much what I thought when I looked at reinforcing the Rivco bars this way.

Actually, I'd leave off the cross brace, for less cluttered look, less cost, less turbulence at high mach numbers etc. I doubt the small amount of additional rigidity would make much difference.

Offline mikejjmay

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2013, 11:00:41 am »


" I doubt the small amount of additional rigidity would make much difference."


^ this

Offline wile_e_coyote

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2013, 01:47:43 pm »
To me the cross brace makes it look cluttered. I like the clean open look.

Offline MCEnterprises

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2013, 02:38:09 pm »
To those of you who think it looks better without the cross brace: Do you think it'd look even better if we were to angle the outer vertical bar inward to meet at the upper bracket instead of going up parallel to the bike and having the 90° inward bend? I attached a photo to help illustrate. Although, there wouldn't be as sharp of an angle at the bottom as the red line appears to indicate (ignore the white line). We'd make that a nice, smooth radius. What do you guys think about that? Or should we keep it as is? If you guys think it may look better with an inward-angled outer bar, I'll have a set mocked up and snap some photos.

Just so you guys are aware, this is our last full day to work on the bike as the owner has a ride coming up this weekend and needs the bike back. So, it's crunch time! The design is pretty much set but, obviously, we have a few small things left to get ironed out.


Offline Edward

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2013, 02:47:45 pm »
While I like the look of the cross-brace, either way wouldn't be a deal breaker for me as I like the overall design more than the other product anyway.


I noticed that you had suggested both options previously and would like to see how it looks with the brace where you suggested by the red line.


My $.02 :)



Offline RodWpg

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2013, 02:49:04 pm »
Years ago I was hit buy a car from the side ( apparently I had my cloak of invisibility on), I was on a Yamaha xs1100 with bags and a crash bar. without the bags and crash bar I'm sure my leg would have been broken. So, for me its not just about how the bar protects the plastic and the bike, but also ME....thus I wouldn't want them angled in or too tight fitting to the bike. just my 2.3 cents....I like what your doing tho, and also for me quick disconnect would be nice as long as it didn't rattle, otherwise bolting it down is fine.
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Offline turbo-max

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Re: C10 Canyon Cage Build Thread!
« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2013, 02:53:51 pm »
i would prefer the original design with the extra angle brace, but that's just me   :s_hi:
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