Author Topic: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild  (Read 18212 times)

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2016, 02:10:07 pm »
Thanks Charlie.
That answered my questions perfectly.

My spare bike is a C-10.
I lowered the bike (with a rocker, and raised front forks) for Anette when she came over from Germany.
I intend to raise it again and was thinking I would leave the rocker and add a C-14 or ZX-9 shock while I was at it.

Sounds like your saying that might not be a good plan?

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Yamahawk

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2016, 12:35:12 am »
Hi Ted,
    The C14 shock isn't a bad shock, it is an OEM shock, though and you shouldn't expect too much from it. The ZX9 also is an OEM KYB shock, and according to the fellow I talked to this morning, it isn't the greatest shock in the barrel. It was so-so even new. Now that doesn't mean that it cannot be made into a great shock, but that entails new valving inside the body of the shock. Also, the length of the shock makes it alter the steering and suspension geometry of the bike. Again, the rocker ratio for most modern sport bikes is from 3.25:1 to 4:1 - which turns a 1" taller shock, as in the C14 shock, into 3.25" to 4" taller ride height. Even with a lowering rocker, this is a lot of additional ride height. Now, it is possible to shorten either shock internally, and this, along with a re-valve of the shock internals, would make either shock into a very nice performer. I assume that it also would have a new spring of the correct weight for your bike. This would cost around $300-$350 for the work to be done, on a quick estimate, which still would be well below a Nitro or Ohlins shock, which would be the equivalent of these shocks after upgrading them to work.
   The lowering rocker alters the rate of the suspension, and that also may not be the best solution as the bike was designed to work in a certain parameter of suspension travel. So, in reality, your suspension should be ok, with the C14 and a lowering rocker, but it won't perform like the suspension is designed to, as the geometry will be different. The same with the ZX9 shock, but it would really need a new heavier spring to make it work adequately.Then the valving for rebound and compression wouldn't be up to the heavier spring. This is why it needs to be re-valved. There is a lot of technical aspects to the suspension of a modern sport tourer, and if the bike is to perform well, and I think that is what we all want, then it should be approached in the right thought towards it. Good luck with your endeavor, and let me know how the C14 shock works with the lowering rocker!
Charlie
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2016, 03:29:33 am »
Thank you.
I do see your point,
I am not arguing about ride improvement.
You know far more than I.
But you have something incorrect in your ride height calculation (compared to shock length).

You sed; Again, the rocker ratio for most modern sport bikes is from 3.25:1 to 4:1 - which turns a 1" taller shock, as in the C14 shock, into 3.25" to 4" taller ride height.

The shock your using is currently 13 3/4" tall.
A C-14 shock is 14" tall.
Only 1/4" taller.
You said yourself that your bike is about  1" - 2" taller than stock (before decreasing the spring preload).

I "do" think your correct about the 3.25:1 to 4:1 ratio at the hole where the Links are attached.
  NOTE: Raising that (link) hole 5/8" lowers the bike 1 1/2" when using Norms Rocker.
The shock hole location is farther from the end of the rocker.
 (it is more than 2x further than the Link hole)
So I think your more than doubling the height effect of lengthening the shock.

PS: Jim Snyder has a (??) rear shock on his bike and a 1 1/2" lowering rocker.
      I am not sure which shock, I think ZZR-1200 (13 1/4" tall)
      His bike sets approx. 1" lower than stock.     

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Yamahawk

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2016, 09:16:49 am »
The stock shock is only 13".... the C14 is 14"... 1" difference which would give a lot of ride height difference... I was referring to the stock length shock vs. what we are using. Jamie Daugherty states that there is no street bike that uses less than a 3:1 rocker ratio, but some dirt bikes use a 2:1. So, if our was around 3:1, it would give a 3" difference with the C14 shock, and 2 1/4" difference with the ZX9 shock... that's what I meant to say. If it was a 4:1 ratio, then we are talking 4" with the C14 (1" longer than stock) and 3" with the ZX9 (3/4" longer than stock).
Now, Jim's bike is using a shock which is 1/4" longer than stock, with a 1 1/2" lowering link which gives him 1" lower than stock. with the sag of his shock, I do believe this is still a 3:1 or so ratio, as his ZZR1200 shock would raise the bike by 3/4" with that ratio. Then the lowering rocker would subtract 1 1/2", for a 3/4" difference in ride height, coupled with the extra sag from the too light spring on the ZZR1200 shock. So, it may very well be a 1" lower than stock, or more, when these components are used. Now, when we are using a markedly longer shock like the C14 or ZX9, there is a correspondingly Longer difference, times 3.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:31:13 am by Yamahawk »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2016, 02:45:05 pm »
Ok, I see your point, and your probably completely right.
I just can't get that into my  head.

I do know your correct; the perfect way to do it is to have a shock that is the correct (original) height.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Cal

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #80 on: October 21, 2016, 04:33:27 pm »
just to provide a real-life comment...

I have had the ZG-1400 shock on my 86 C10 for well over a year now.  one or 2 up the bike is very stable and easy to operate including more frisky curves (no - I am not too crazy with this).  earlier on this year I was asking about the powering link possibilities available - but that was not a ride quality based desire; it was a get it back to original height; get side stand angle more accurate; get the rear tire off the ground when on centre stand.

it rides just fine.  and getting it onto the centre stand is a dream (:>

Cal

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #81 on: October 21, 2016, 04:59:26 pm »
I do know your correct that; the perfect way to do it is to have a shock that is the correct (original) height.
                                         A also agree that lowering rockers/links can effect ride...

I see your point about the resultant height of installing a C-14 shock.
  But (sorry) I can't get your height difference into my head.

Why I can't get it into my  head. 
** I am Not arguing, just discussing...

Important consideration;
    The rocker is not "all" of the 3:1 ratio change.
       The other rear suspension components (ie; pivot point locations) contribute to the 3:1 ratio.
     ** I am not considering spring sag in this explanation.

For Discussion;
There are 3 holes in the stock rocker. (Call them A, B, and C) 
                         A-------B-------C
                             2.5"      2.5"        (Total = 5.0")

    Hole A is attached at the frame. (A = Front hole on rocker)
    Hole B is 2.5" from hole A. (B = Center/Link hole on rocker)
    Hole C is 5.0" from hole A, {or 2.5" from hole B}. (C = Rear/Shock hole on rocker)


 With A being the pivot point, and C being 2.5" greater distance than B,
        moving the location of hole C will have "approx." 1/2 the (height) effect of moving hole B.

  fyi: Norm moves Hole B  5/8" {up} on his lowering Rocker.
                    (That 5/8" moves the wheel 1.5" {up})
                                                                       {Which lowers the bike 1.5"}.
                     Using that (5/8" = 1.5"),
                       We can calculate; moving hole B  1" {up},  the wheel would move 2.4" {up}

      Keep in mind that moving hole C has "approx." 1/2 the effect of moving hole B.

      So, 1/2 the effect of moving hole B means,  moving hole C {down} 1",
                                                would move hole B  0.5" {down}.
                                                would move the wheel  1.2" {down}
                                                                                        {Which would raise the bike 1.2"}.

Bottom line; If I'm correct;
                     * If you install just a C-14 Shock, the bike will set 1.2" taller.
                   ** If you install a C-14 Shock "and" Norms 1 1/2" lowering rocker,
                            the wheel will move 0.3" {up}. {Which would lower the bike 0.3"}.
                                   ie; 1.5" + (-1.2") = 0.3"

Geez, that was hard to explain.
Please do try to understand my gibberish/calculation's and  let me know if my reasoning is way off base..
  Mebbe Cal can tell us if his C-14 installation changed his height up 4" or 1.2"?
   
Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 05:04:53 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Cal

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #82 on: October 21, 2016, 05:14:13 pm »
no actual comparison measurements available - I never took any prior to the swap of shock.

what it does appear to be like is thus...

- when on the centre stand it seems like closer to 4 inches travel must be taken (where previously rear tire was several inches off the ground it in now well planted on the ground)

- when riding I'd say it is closer to the 1.2 inch in rise from stock - or more (considering there was a lot of sag despite max air pressure in the C10 shock; little in any sag now)

I can be more scientific/specific if you have something you want measured (as long as I don't have to take it apart!)

Cal

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #83 on: October 22, 2016, 02:31:25 pm »
Thanks Cal.
I suggest we settle this by "all" doing a basic measurement.

With bike on Center stand and wheel not touching the ground
   Measure from the center of the axle to the center of the rear  front antler bolt.
     (Cal, you may have to put your center stand on a board to get the wheel off the ground).
      PS: What rear tire do you have? Belted tires {in GW size} are larger dia. than stock.

This measurement would give us a number (at full extension) to compare.

Charlie: I'm not trying to argue.
          Just want to know height of a C-10 with C-14 (or other) shock/rocker, before I buy a shock.
           (The full extension measurement is the only way I know, to do a height comparison).

Mine measures 13 1/2" (from the axle to front antler bolt).
                       NOTE: Mine has been lowered 2".
Stock should be 15 1/2" (from the axle to front antler bolt).
                                (Can someone confirm that)?
Beaucephus is 15 3/8" (from the axle to front antler bolt).
                         (With C-14 shock and Norm's 1 1/2 lowering rocker)


Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 02:18:24 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2016, 11:32:33 pm »
I received a note from Beaucephus.
He installed a C-14 shock and Norms 1 1/2" lowering rocker.

He said that (With bike on Center stand and wheel not touching the ground) his measures 15 3/8".
(I think a stock Connie measures 15 1/2"). {someone please check that measurement}

Using the 15 1/2" as a reference:  his bike is 1/8" lower than stock..
Without the 1 1/2 lowering rocker); his bike (with C-14 shock) would have been 16 7/8".
                                                             1 3/8" taller than stock.

He is adjusting sag now.

NOTE: The C-14 shock/1 1/2" rocker combination has caused a problem with his center stand coming down.
          He'll fix that too.

PS: Sorry for stealing your discussion. I think I have the info I want now...

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 02:19:24 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Yamahawk

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2016, 01:51:07 am »
Sounds good, Ted!
  If you really want to know the suspension in and out, ask a professional, and he will tell you what you're wanting to know. I, however am not a professional, I just repeated what the fellow I talked to stated, and he Is a professional, and sets up shocks as his business. So, I suggest you talk to a competent person who knows what they are talking about. Jamie Daugherty is who I am going to have rework my ZX9/ZZR1200 hybrid, and he is suggesting that the shock be modified for length so that the geometry of the bike won't be affected.
   Now, if you want to give the bike more sporting rake, then the rear being slightly taller would help that. I think that the bike would handle better with a little more rear height, and that isn't a bad thing unless your inseam won't tolerate it. I road race a couple bikes, (amateur), and had him set up a longer rear shock for my VTR250 Interceptor, and it handles really well. So, if your bike is where you want it to be, all is well. But, if it ends up too tall, for the price of a lowering link, you could have the shock length reworked, and have it the way it should be. Lowering rockers work, but they alter the geometry of your rear suspension, which isn't the best option. Now, if you have the shock re-valved and re-sprung, along with the correction in length, it will be more money than the lowering rocker, but then, you would have a 1st class shock that would do you very well, better than any stock shock repurposed for the Connie, on par with a very expensive aftermarket shock (which is an option too).
Take care,
     Charlie
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Not so ultimate c-10 rebuild
« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2016, 12:21:06 pm »
Thanks Charlie.
here's sorta how all of this started.
I lowered my spare bike for Anette (last years OtP Traveler) when she came over from Germany.
(by buying/installing a used lowering link)  Now, the bike is too low for me, and I was going to put it back stock.
Being a bit altitude challenged I also lowered my C-14 (with a Muzzy Lowering Link) but not nearly as much.
(I like the new height. Can now ride {with the wife} and be comfortable holding us both up)

Anyway, I was considering re-raising the C-10, but not to full height and saw the discussion..
The discussion made me think it might be possible to just add a different shock while I was tinkering.
Without a lowering rocker the available shocks are all too tall for me.
(Since I already have the rocker installed),  I was hoping some combination might work out.
{and} I was also hoping to develop some info for others.
I agree the shock mod is the better way to go.

I don't really want to spend the bigger dollars to buy a shock and then have it modified for my C-10 as it's a spare bike).

NOTE: Because of your info, in the future, I may contact Jamie about shortening and adjusting my C-14 shock to get an improved suspension.

Ride safe, Ted
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