Author Topic: Resolved - Leaking Petcock - should have been 'stuck carb float'  (Read 11450 times)

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Offline Edward

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Rode to a friend's house and noticed a little rough running after getting off the freeway. After parking the bike I noticed a strong fuel smell and with all that I have read on this forum, my heart dropped a little. Noticing a little fuel drip, I pulled off the side cover and noticed fuel coming out of the airbox -  :-\


So... turned off the petcock, did my business while cleaning up the mess. Fired her back up and made it home, though running RICH and rough. I think that smell is rich...


Long story short, using the manual petcock as I always do, I note that fuel flows when petcock is on, so the assumption has to be bad petcock, right?


I read up, and I think mine is a pingel. I read this thread and the recommend part # 6211CH, but the tech article recommends 4211CG.


http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,35552.msg191129.html#msg191129


Can anyone tell me what the "correct" one is? I haven't pulled the tank off, but would like to be able to order the part tomorrow during work and so can't pull the old one to see if the model is listed on it, but it looks more like the 4211CG. Are they the same with different exterior designs?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 10:30:34 am by Ed Mac »



Offline Mettler1

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2013, 11:47:15 am »
  You also have a stuck carb float.
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Offline wild man

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2013, 11:51:24 am »
I cant help you with which is the correct manual petcock as I run the OEM.  However, If you are indeed running an aftermarket petcock, and are experiencing flooding issues with it turned on, the problem is with your float needles not sealing.  You might simply just have some debris on the needle seats.  Trying flushing them first to see if that corrects the issue.

You re flirting with a hydrolock until this problem is corrected

Sorry
   
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Offline Edward

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2013, 12:42:27 pm »
Thanks, the COG forum and users like yourself helped me to identify the fact that I am indeed in potential danger zone here, so I much appreciate the problem.


I noted that gas comes out of the airbox, but haven't pulled the plugs yet to see if it is getting into the cylinders. Once I turn the petcock off it stops.


I removed the line from the petcock to the carbs and turned it to reserve - fuel runs, turn it to on - fuel runs.


The bike runs okay at higher RPMs, but stumbles at a little higher point than the normal low rev stumble. Smells really rich when idling and occasionally just quits.


I looked closer and it looks to me like what is in there is the 4211-CG. I plan to send the carbs to SISF for the full spa treatment, but want to see if petcock replacement will resolve the issue until such a time as I am able to give the bike up for the time required to do that.



Offline Edward

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2013, 12:53:22 pm »
So, while I am not exceptionally mechanically inclined, I have turned a wrench or two. But carbs are still voodoo to me, so how do I go about "unsticking" the carb float?


 ???



Offline Bob_C_CT

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2013, 01:35:42 pm »
You're petcock is not working. You may or may not have a carb issue. The force of the free flowing fuel can force an overfill of the carbs. Fix petcock problem. The carb problem can be stuck float or improper seal at needle valve. Check float height with clear tubing attached to bowl drain plugs and see if fuel level goes above the top of the bowl while on prime. I would not start motor until you resolve these issues.
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Offline Edward

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2013, 01:54:57 pm »
You're petcock is not working. You may or may not have a carb issue. The force of the free flowing fuel can force an overfill of the carbs. Fix petcock problem. The carb problem can be stuck float or improper seal at needle valve. Check float height with clear tubing attached to bowl drain plugs and see if fuel level goes above the top of the bowl while on prime. I would not start motor until you resolve these issues.


Thanks for the confirmation Bob! This is the conclusion I came to as well and already ordered a new Pingel petcock. Will try that first and if I continue to have issues I will move on to the carbs.

FWIW, I ordered the 4211-CG. The 62xx series is a more universal series as determined by the location of the control lever as it related to the outlet. The 4211-CG has the outlet facing rear when mounted on left of tank and has the switch accessible from the left in this orientation. "CG" indicates chrome with machined grooves for that fancy look. It's the same price as "CR" which is just "Chrome Round" without any fancy machined look to it.

Was ~$100 + shipping direct from Pingel. Craig at Pingel was helpful and efficient.


Perhaps the tech article could be updated to change pricing and list other options that people have used (part number 6211).




Offline turbojoe78_MA

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2013, 07:25:38 pm »
If you turn the petcock to the off position and the gas stops leaking than your petcock is working like it's made to ... your problem is in the carb or carbs.

Your getting a stumble and rich fuel smell when going slow and at idle because one or more of your float needles in not sealing and is letting too much gas into the carb.

You can try to flush them out by draining all the fuel bowls out and with the drain screws still open turn the petcock to on and let some gas rinse through your carbs.  You could also try blowing some compressed air into the fuel line from the petcock, again, with the drain screws open.

To find out which one is leaking, start the bike up and let it idle until it runs rough or dies, turn the petcock off and check your plugs.  It should be easy to see which carb is leaking as the plug will be very dark or black.
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Offline Mettler1

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2013, 01:09:36 am »
   Knowing what hydrolock can ruin an engine I'm not sure I would ever touch the start button until the carbs are fixed!!
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Offline WillyP

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2013, 02:23:31 am »
Once I turn the petcock off it stops.
I removed the line from the petcock to the carbs and turned it to reserve - fuel runs, turn it to on - fuel runs.

This is all a manuel petcock does... on, fuels flows, off, it does not. Problem is in the carb(s).
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Offline Edward

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2013, 08:57:23 pm »
Okay, after a bit more reading, and guidance from you folks, I will be digging in to resolving my carb issue as soon as time allows.


I do know this, despite ALL my reading, it took an issue to really get my head around this problem, and the threat of hydrolock.


So Petcock works fine - shuts off correctly and flows when turned on. I bought one from Pingel, but maybe I'll need it some day in the future or sell it sometime down the road...


Carbs are clearly having a problem so I am planning to do the following before starting her again:


1: Pull tank and plugs
2: Drain bowls
3: Check to see if fuel in cylinders by turning it over
4: Give carbs a good whack or two to see if I can free what appears to be a sticking float
5: Reconnect fuel lines and run some fuel through the bowls
6: Close drains on the bowls, reconnect the whole rig, cross my fingers and fire her up
7: Once she runs again, shut her down and check for leaks
8: No leaks - Ride  :motonoises:
9: Leaks - Drink Beer while pulling carbs off for a trip to sunny FLA for a spa treatment.


Anyone know when SISF returns from his hiatus?

Suggestions for other steps?






Offline Mcfly

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2013, 09:25:15 pm »
STEP 3.3:  Ensure all forms of potential spark are safe from igniting any fuel that may fly from plug openings.
STEP 3.5:  Cover plug openings with a rag.  If there's gas, it's gonna go flying.


Though "hitting the carbs with a rock" was part of standard carb repair in the past, I would refrain from
smacking them about too much.   :beerchug:

EDIT:  IF the carbs end up vacationing in Florida, have SISF install the overflow tubes.  Peace of mind knows no cost.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 09:29:55 pm by Mcfly »
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Offline Bob_C_CT

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 02:46:53 pm »
I messed up I didn't read the manual petcock statement. I saw " pulled fuel line from carbs turned to on, fuel flowed, turned to reserve fuel flowed". Sorry for bad petcock statement. That speed reading course is really paying off.
Good luck with the fix and like others have said beware of the possible flame thrower flume that may spurt out of the cylinders. AMHIK, I had an incandescent drop light on within 2 feet of the plume when I bumped the starter, no plugs it will turn over fast.
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Offline Edward

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 03:30:47 pm »
Do I even have to turn it over? I pulled 1 and 4 last night cause I was too lazy to move the coils and did a quick visual - no liquid in cylinders. Both looked like I have been running a little rich but #1 is clearly the worst.


Seems like I could just LOOK and be able to tell.


As for the spa vacation, thanks for the advice Mcfly. I'd definitely have Steve do all of his magic and likely buy the exhaust cam sprocket while I am at it.



Offline Edward

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2013, 12:29:45 am »
Do I even have to turn it over?


Good news is, bent rod test is negative! Bad news is, turning it over is necessary! Gas shooting out of #1 tells me so, good thing I had a paper towel in there, but even that let a little fly...


So draining the bowl on #1 was relatively easy. So was #4. Now I am off to see if I can find a ball end 3mm!


Looks like #1 had significantly more fuel than #4, and looks a little dirty. Wonder why there's a stuck float...



Offline Mettler1

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2013, 12:49:25 am »
  If the dirt in the fuel is rust it will stick to a magnet and that will tell you a lot about your tank. If it's not rust it could be rubber particles from an old fuel line or dirty fuel from a gas pump.

   An after thought, you might check you oil for gas that may have leaked past the rings. :'(
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 02:12:19 am by Mettler1 »
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Offline Edward

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2013, 03:30:02 am »
When I drag a magnet along the bottom of the cup, some of the crud moves, but doesn't seem too bad. Tank looks good on visual though I noticed a little rust on a plate on top of the hump inside the tank. Coating is on the list. Since I am almost into the bike for 50% of the original price on little bits here and there, I am slowing down. After pulling it apart, stick coils just went up my list to the top.


Installed Bergman quick release kit for the tank since I was there anyway.



Seems that I've resolved the issue. Though I didn't change the plugs while I was there, it still seems to run perhaps even a little stronger than before.


Summary:


After a high speed run, noticed gas out of air box. Limped home in a panic and been reading and tinkering ever since. Observed gas leaking from air box after riding if I left petcock on. Incorrectly diagnosed this as petcock failure but, duh, I have a manual petcock.


After reading, determined highly likely stuck float. Actions taken:


1) Pulled plugs -bent rod test while there was negative.
2) turned over, spewing fuel out of #1 (good thing I read about hydrolock...)
3) drained then flushed bowl on #1
4) smacked carb a few time with a wooden dowel + hammer (tapped them all just in case)
5) reassemble
6) fired her up and went for a quick 8 mile jaunt  :motonoises:
7) returned and left petcock ON after parking on level ground and waited for leak
8) observing no leak, fired her up,shut petcock off and ran her till she died from fuel starvation
9) drained bowl from #1 noting how clean it was :great:
10)laugh at self for buying we parts and tools not required to resolve issue  :rotflmao:


Will take her out on a proper run tomorrow morning and see it goes.


Thanks COG.  :beerchug:




Offline Paulie

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Re: Leaking Petcock
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2013, 02:45:57 pm »
... stuck float ...

And that's not an uncommon prob. That pic of yers showed LOTSA crud.

I carry a 3mm hex key on my Conc & use it to drain all the bowls once in awhile.

Offline WillyP

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Re: Resolved - Leaking Petcock - should have been 'stuck carb float'
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2013, 02:54:51 pm »
Adding a filter will help keep crud out of the carbs, but the long term fix is cleaning and sealing the tank.
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Offline Edward

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Re: Resolved - Leaking Petcock - should have been 'stuck carb float'
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2013, 07:52:14 pm »
Stuck a little sea foam in, filled up the tank and went on a quick 90miler - San Jose Dons MC DAM Poker RUN.


All is right with the world and got compliments from the Road Captain on the bike.


Sealing tank, SISF Spa Treatment are high on the list, but let me get further into the riding season first. Maybe November...