Author Topic: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?  (Read 12631 times)

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Offline Rev Ryder

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SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« on: September 18, 2012, 02:55:31 pm »
As of late I have had a lot of inquiries into the "how tos" of turbo charging the C-10.  A few know that in the summer of 2007 I decided to try putting a turbocharger on my bike... a few of those also know tat I didn't have any money to do it with either.  So, the project was done on a shoestring and without destroying any more stock parts than necessary in order that "if it didn't pan out," I could go back to stock without issue.  Well, despite the problems of those first months, the Turbo did come together and continues (at least until her crash in April) to evolve and improve.

The purpose of THIS thread is to measure interest.  As those afore mentioned few also know, everything that was documented on the build-up of this bike was lost when the previous forum on which it resided was... um... re-formatted, shall we say, without back-up.  IF there were enough interest, I would consider trying to re-write as much of what was previously documented plus lots of new material that has not been recorded... in other words, a step by step process to "roll-yer-own" so to speak.

Now before folks start shouting, "Oh yes, we want, this info"  I would remind yall that in order to build one of these there are a lot of skills required to get it done.  I really don't want to spend the time and effort to do this if it's just for fun reading.  Fabrication and welding skills ARE mandatory. Sure, you can hire someone to do it, but if you do, you could sell your C-10 and buy a C-14 and have change left over.  THat's just a warning that it isn't necessarily cheap.  Sure, my first iteration of the Turbo was done for less than $600 and it CAN be done for that, but most folks may not have the resources I had, at the time, to lean on.  Plus I designed and fabricated parts by casting aluminum and brass, molding and casting silicones and urethane rubbers, welding, I built my header was fabricated from old bearings and a discarded set of Z1 pipes, my own check valves were fabricated from parts I found laying around or could buy at the hardware store, other junk was re-purposed for the project, and every cost reducing measure I could think of was put into play just to see if the whole idea was possible.  When it looked like it really was feasible and I had a shot at successfully bringing the project home, I spent more money as it was available and as new ideas and system improvements were formulated.

Anyways, bottom line is... IS there REALLY interest in me trying to re-document this thing or not.  At this point, I'm not sure if the Turbo is actually going to be rebuilt or if it's going the way of the Dodo, but if there is interest enough I would at least give a shot at giving a fairly comprehensive list of procedures and a "what worked/what didn't work kind" of overview.

What say ye?
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Offline Snarf

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2012, 03:21:49 pm »
I know I dont have the patients to do the build.  But oh my I do remember being glued to my monitor reading about your build.
Its such a shame that info was 'lost'.
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Offline Mad River Marc

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2012, 03:24:53 pm »
I will never turbo a C-10,

I don't have:
1) The time
2) The patience
3) The Skills
4) A C-10


But I would LOVE to read about the build,  I think it's fascinating... Even if most never try it, to see it so well documented is a bonus to the forum as a whole IMHO :)
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Offline cra-z1000

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2012, 03:32:09 pm »
600 ? Sounds like a deal . I'm only a few hrs away . Can I drop her off with ya and pick it up next week ?  :rotflmao:
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Offline Egodriver71

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2012, 04:22:29 pm »
It is ashame that your previous efforts have disappeared.

I was pretty serious about doing the turbo C10 also.  But as I was gathering parts and loosing space in my garage, I determined the C14 was the better choice.

I agree with Chuck in that you have to REALLY want a turboed C10 and have the means to do almost all of it yourself or you'll be in the poor house very quickly.

Plus one of the things Chuck didn't mention is that it never really ran right on carbs.  So he fabbed up a lovely EFI system.  That is the ticket with boost.

I'd love to see your pics and write ups again, but I won't be doing a turbo to a C10.  And I know there is a turbo C14 out there.  And I don't see that happening.  I already know the bike is WAY more capable than it needs to be for me.
Thomas Mann
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2012, 04:45:08 pm »
There have been TWO C-14 turbo builds so far.  Both done with the Cycle Logic ZX14 kit and both have fried their engines last I heard.  I initially warned Bruce that I thought the rising rate regulator method of fuel control for the C-14 was a very risky way of doing things, and in the end I still think that's what got his.  THe other one sounded like exactly the same problem.  Both bikes went lean and the engines were destroyed.  My EFI system helps protect against that happening by allowing the computer to compensate if fuel pressure drops off and if it drops too much it can kill the engine before damage occurs (at least that's the plan).

As for the carbs not working, had I purchased a good, new set of carbs instead of using my 20 year old ones and continuously refurbishing them, they would have been fine.  Actually, my carbs ran like a striped ape.  However, balance between cylinders was sometimes inconsistant.  Working with the low fuel pressures that the carb's needles and seats required meant that keeping float bowls full at the same level all the time was a tad more difficult and took some jockeying of float levels.  It also presented a problem in regulating the fuel pressure to that low of a level which was at the very bottom end of my regulator's capabilities.  Rated for 4-20 psi and I was adjusting it to deliver only 3 psi. It may have had some consitancy issues of its own.  However, the blow-through carbs DID make a lot of power.  Not as good as my EFI and not as easy to adjust and tune, but they ARE viable.  However, I don;t think you will ever get good mileage with them since you MUST have a pitot tube to make them work. And any time air is flowing over the pitot tube (like at cruise speeds off boost) you are still getting SOME pressure differential in the float bowls that will fuel flow to be slightly exagerated... hence my less than stellar mileage on the highway.  A best of 33 mpg going to and from the 08 National in Frisco.  Last October, I made a trip around Texas and Oklahoma (a little less than 3k miles) that yielded a best of 43 mpg with my current EFI setup AND it makes a bit more power to boot.  But if you put in the effort with the carbs, they will make as much power as the EFI.  However, tuning for MPG will always be a challenge, IMHO, because of the necessity of a pitot tube and its very nature.  Overall, the carbs were very simple to tune.  And I may have had much better luck with a new set as mine were prone to hydrolocking type fuel leakage even with numerous replacements of the float valves both with aftermarket and OEM types.  All of this to say that carbs are certainly viable. However, rahter than spend money on new carbs and start over, I wanted to play with the EFI and so I opted to go that way.  I DID run the carbs for three years and many thousands of gallons... er miles.   :motonoises:

 
EDIT TO ADD:
Another thing to add to this discussion is HOW MUCH BOOST DO YOU NEED?
The old saying, speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? holds very true with any high performance mods and turbos are certainly no exception.
If you only run 5 psi of boost then your risk of damage is really, really, really low and managing that risk is easy and cheap... you can probably still run regular gas MOST of the time.  Bump that up to 7-8 psi of boost and you'll need to run the best pump gas you can buy, but the risk is still quite low though the power gain is about 45-50% without an intercooler.  That means 90 hp becomes about 130+ hp. Not quite a C-14, but a good rider will stay with them in the twisties no problem.  Staying at this level forever is easy f you're the kind of person that can stay at that level forever.  I am not that person. LOL  10 psi will absolutely mandate 93+ octane, dropping the compression some, and preferably being able to control the ignition timing (retard at boost).  Water injection or an intercooler is also a plus. The reward is that the bike is now quicker than a stock or lightly modded C-14 (pipe, flies out, etc.).  THis is kind of where I stalled with the carbs.  Anything that went wrong broke a piston ring land due to detonation.  I NEVER holed a piston though.  Yet I didn't want to stay at 10 psi either. I wanted 17-18 psi and that meant I really needed control I didn't know how to get with the carbs easily. So the EFI was my ticket to mo-powuh.  So far I have been able to run up to 14 psi of boost on pump gas without breakage.  I do not know how much power that is, but it delivers third gear power wheelies at that level.  I mean turn over backwards in third gear power, not an inch off the ground in third gear on a powershift type power... it will do that or better at 10 psi with carbs easy.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 05:01:15 pm by Rev Ryder »
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Offline Egodriver71

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2012, 05:35:50 pm »
Boost is addicting!!!!

I loved my R/T at 11psi.  I was ecstatic at 15psi.  I about s*** myself at about 21psi.  And I wanted to keep going.  Alas, but I sold the car for other circumstances. :(

Remember cubic inches equals cubic dollars.  And adding boost is like adding cubic inches!!!
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Offline virtualdev

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2012, 06:25:39 pm »
Though this sounds amazing and an adventure, I don't think I could ever take it on myself.  It's more of just engineering porn for the vast majority I'd imagine.

As for a turbo with carbs, I have this lovely project bike (Seca 650 Turbo) that anyone is more than welcome to. :-D

It came stock with 4 carbs, a pressure chamber, fuel pump, regulator, etc to make it all work.  I'm sure this similar design would be were you ended up with on a Connie conversion.

Like someone said above, you have to REALLY want it...
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Offline turbo-max

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2012, 06:48:08 pm »
well, you def know i want to go turbo and will, and already have things in motion so do so, but this IS going to take some time to complete as money IS an object that i don't have alot of at one time, thanks to Rev Ryder :beerchug: , i already have a list of things to source out and already have a F/i set up headed my way.  :great:
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2012, 07:14:47 pm »
Virtual,
Yes, the Seca was an awesome blow-through bike.  Yeah, they had their issues and they were heavy and misunderstood by everyone on the planet except a few magazine editors and the guys who dreampt them up... but they really were fast lil boogers and that familiar turbo arm-stretching pullllllllllll was there.  Neat bikes.  I wouldn't mind owning one.

mad-turbo-maxxie,
You, my friend, may just be able to do this. LOL  But we've got a long ways to go to get you there.  PM me and let me know what you've ordered/bought before you may spend un-neccessary cash and so I can let you know what mods to make to the parts in order to get a fit.  If you are already getting some Throttle Bodies, depending upon what you've bought, there COULD be issues between year models I have not yet told you about.  ZX636 throttle bodies are pretty much created equal, but Z1000 and Z750 TBs are different year model to year model.  Not only in butterfly size, but in shape.  Some of the later Z1000 units re oval and MAY present a sealing problem to the plenum.  Any of those can be made to work, but the oval ones could be a problem.  AND the only maps I have worked out to date are for the ZX636, 38mm TB's with ZX10R squirters.  THe Z1000 or 750 TBs have the cables hook up in the center much like the COnnie and they need to be narrowed a solid 5mm at the center junction.  I've done it to a set of the oval ones, so it's do-able.  The 636 TBs have to be widened 10mm at the center junction, even easier.  THe fuel rail fro mthe Z1000 can be used by cutting the center metal part that the fuel line hooks to or the 636 can be widened with a little careful welding.

If we do this thing, I'll get into all that in do time.
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2012, 07:28:26 pm »
Hey Chuck,
  Did you ever mess with or ride one of the Kawasaki GPZ-750 turbo's ? That was a slick little bike.
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Offline turbo-max

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2012, 07:29:18 pm »
Rev...just so happens a friend of mine crashed his zx 636 and is parting it out!, i am a turbo junky and have in the past owned a both the honda turbos (CX500 and 650) and the venerable Gpz 750turbo that i put close to 100k miles on before selling it!, i WILL boost the ZG!  >:D
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Offline Slybones

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2012, 07:35:38 pm »
How about a write up on doing an EFI connie. Forget the turbo part.  This might be doable by more people and could ?????? work well with SISF cams etc. Thoughts on that part.
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Offline wile_e_coyote

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2012, 07:42:45 pm »
+1 on the EFI I think I would really explore that option. :)
I like reading about the turbo but don't really think that is an option I would explore.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2012, 07:46:18 pm »
Late to the party Chuck, but the pitot tube / economy issue could be solved by using a small vaccum switch and a shutoff solenoid. I have used these switches made by a company named "world magnetic" that were setable to close at down to 1" vacuum, so it could be set to leave the pitot tube closed at normal operation and the bowls vented to atmosphere, then when it's time for boost the solenoid switches to the pitot tube. Just a thought. - Steve
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2012, 08:05:06 pm »
Hey Chuck,
  Did you ever mess with or ride one of the Kawasaki GPZ-750 turbo's ? That was a slick little bike.
No, I have to say this is my first real world experience with turbocharging.  All of my previous experience is with positive displacement blowers (Roots).  I've read a lot of articles on all of the factory turbo bikes of the 70's/80's while researching this stuff and most every offering got pretty favorable reviews... but even like the turbo cars of the era, things got better later.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2012, 08:22:46 pm »
Late to the party Chuck, but the pitot tube / economy issue could be solved by using a small vaccum switch and a shutoff solenoid. I have used these switches made by a company named "world magnetic" that were setable to close at down to 1" vacuum, so it could be set to leave the pitot tube closed at normal operation and the bowls vented to atmosphere, then when it's time for boost the solenoid switches to the pitot tube. Just a thought. - Steve
I was unaware of those switches.  I did experiment with my own vacuum/boost operated pitot opening that was simply two pieces of tube sliding inside each other.  Vacuum pulled the opening shut while a spring forced it open when the vacuum dropped.  I had sealing problems and never found a spring pressure that worked and twice had the spring ingested into a carb bowl because it came loose on sudden decel when the valve slapped shut violently and knocked the spring off which then traveled down the right vent tube and wedge the float open.  I gave up on that idea then.  Something like this could certainly work.  A proprietary valve on the plenum would also be necessary to get mileage back up to near stock levels since there is a lot of air restriction going through the turbo off boost.  THis idea I got from the guy who used to operate turbo-bike.net.  I built one of those too, but it would jamb too easily and then leak boost or not release again when off boost.  I designed another using reed valves from a Mercury outboard, but never finished building it.  Everything just takes up space that isn't there. 

EFI is still much safer and more reliable, IMHO... but I know the carbs can work nearly as well, they are just much more sensitive and time consuming to have to work out the kinks on.  The EFI you don't have to pull off to adjust or tweak, you just hook up the USB cable to the ol laptop and adjust stuff.  I know, I'm getting lazy.  Well, yes I am.  Thanks for noticing.   :beerchug:
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2012, 11:14:08 pm »
http://www.designflexswitches.com/

  Here's a link. Yeah, I know, where was I when you needed it  :'(

 Oh, and I don't know if having to cast your own intake boots (I remember those trials and tribulations) makes EFI easier at all...Steve
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 11:16:06 pm by Steve in Sunny Fla »
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2012, 12:03:37 am »
http://www.designflexswitches.com/

  Here's a link. Yeah, I know, where was I when you needed it  :'(

 Oh, and I don't know if having to cast your own intake boots (I remember those trials and tribulations) makes EFI easier at all...Steve


hehehe
 I discovered a Honda part that works.   :)
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Offline Dragoon

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2012, 01:10:49 am »
Though this sounds amazing and an adventure, I don't think I could ever take it on myself.  It's more of just engineering porn for the vast majority I'd imagine.

As for a turbo with carbs, I have this lovely project bike (Seca 650 Turbo) that anyone is more than welcome to. :-D

It came stock with 4 carbs, a pressure chamber, fuel pump, regulator, etc to make it all work.  I'm sure this similar design would be were you ended up with on a Connie conversion.

Like someone said above, you have to REALLY want it...


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Offline turbo-max

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 01:31:16 am »
Rev...you really stirred up the board with this thread, and i guess i i kinda fired you back up on this subject too...lol  :nananana:
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 02:48:09 pm »
Actually Max, you are one of three persons to ask about it in the past ten days.  So yeah, you DID kinda fire me back up on the subject I reckon.  I usually get about a half dozen inquiries per year about it, but I've heard much more the past few months.  I'm kinda figuring if I'm going to write stuff about it to folks all the time anyway, maybe I should try to put something substantial back together again.
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Offline Dragoon

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 03:15:24 pm »
Actually Max, you are one of three persons to ask about it in the past ten days.  So yeah, you DID kinda fire me back up on the subject I reckon.  I usually get about a half dozen inquiries per year about it, but I've heard much more the past few months.  I'm kinda figuring if I'm going to write stuff about it to folks all the time anyway, maybe I should try to put something substantial back together again.

Guilty,

Rev,

After the explanation you so graciously PMed me I quickly realized that this would not be a project for the faint hearted. I think before you pour the enourmouse amount of time it would take, you might want to get some idea of how many would really appreciate your efforts.

But many thanks for the reply to my inquiry . It was an eye opener.

Cheers
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Offline turbo-max

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2012, 03:50:50 pm »
i know i will for certain be going through with turbosupercharging my ZG...hell, i went so far as to boost my lawnmower! :rotflmao:
turbo lag is a courteous head start!    ~Jeff H
99 c-10 "the purple monster"
01 c-10 undergoing turbofacation     
03 c-10 some mods...alot of miles
several other c-10's in pieces!

Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: SO YOU WANNA TURBO YOUR ZG-1000?
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2012, 04:35:44 pm »
i know i will for certain be going through with turbosupercharging my ZG...hell, i went so far as to boost my lawnmower! :rotflmao:
Hey Steve,
Here's another sicko to add to our collection.   :great:

Once you start hopping stuff up it's hard to leave ANYTHING alone.  I heard SiSF's High Compression, 2.8 liter garage door opener is being considered for the Guiness Book of World Records and Bergmen is working on a Flux Capaciter powered Slide Rule... both just rumors at this point, but....

Me?  Connie Rider says I have the largest shop-floor oil spot in all of COGdom.  Not too sure how to take that one though.
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie