Author Topic: Vent flaps for engine heat  (Read 8193 times)

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Offline JimBob

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2017, 01:26:21 am »
Thanks for the pic, Jim. That's an ingenious approach!


Please keep reporting - looking forward to making some of my own

Offline DaveSz

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2017, 12:18:51 pm »
Ok, proto-type installed.  If it works, the large bolt will be replaced with nylon all-thread and a knob for easy removal/install which right now takes about 30 seconds.  Used an old acrylic clip-board which just happened to be 9 inches wide and had finished sides and nice rounded corners.  Only had to cut the 5 inch width and that side is up close to the fairing.  I'll give it a workout and see if it stays in place and doesn't flex too much (or shatter).

Jim,
Looks good.  You've fitted nicely around the tip over bar, and still lined up well with the right vent.  The support from the tip over bar will be great to keep it aligned.

Being on the right side, it anyhow is a larger opening vent, and will have much more hot air coming out than the left vent.  With the throttle clamp on, I like to reach down and feel the heat while cruising, and the air out of the vent is HOT.  Might "bend" the acrylic a bit.  But you have really good support. 

Dave

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Offline Jim

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2017, 01:31:44 pm »
Second one is cut, just not mounted, yet.  Should have it completed tomorrow.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 02:52:01 pm by Jim »

Offline Jim

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2017, 11:06:04 am »
So far, so good.  Flaps are stable with the single mounting bolt and the outward side slipped over the tip-over bar.  If you try this with tip-over bars, the cutout for the right and left bars are slightly different.  I had to use a small section of 1" radiator hose on the left bar to make up the difference.  It is still a little weird trying to get used to the lack of air mid-calf on my legs but I'm definitely not feeling the blast of heat.  I have my foot vents installed and there is still a good flow of cooler air about a 1/3 of the way up from the bottom for your toes.  I'll try some foam on the upper portion to see if it helps anything.  I've done a resistor mod to the temperature sending unit which makes the temp gauge work over a wider range for greater sensitivity.  At highway speeds on a 95+ degree day, the temp gauge needle is still standing straight up, as usual.  So I'd say there doesn't appear to be any detrimental effects to the cooling system performance (I know, not very scientific).

Thanks again, Dave.  A libation of your choice will be on me. :beerchug:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 11:19:08 am by Jim »

Offline danodemotoman

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2017, 11:46:31 pm »
  Don't want to go on and on about it... but...The oem top heat shield should 'snap' in place on locating tabs. If not then much heat escapes over the top.
 I have had 4 c10's and each was different as far as the top shield locating flush on top of the rad. The '01 kept lifting off when re checked.
 Some time in the past another had configured the side vent shields on the rear side.

Offline Jim

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2017, 10:53:55 am »
Thanks Dan.  Verified my heat shield was firmly in place when I adjusted my valves back in February.

Offline DaveSz

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2017, 04:31:46 pm »
Hi Jim,
Glad that you worked out the fit of the flaps around the tip-over bars.   And that you are getting rid of the heat with them.    Really nice to reach down and feel the heat steaming out the vents, behind the flaps, and passing me by.   Last year, when I was trying out the different size flaps, I pulled off the OEM air scoops, and just never went  back to them.  With my boots on the stock pegs, they are no hotter than anybody wearing tall black waterproof touring boots to do anything in the summer.  The side in the sun is warmer, but that’s about it.
 
To Dan’s point, the fit of the top heat shield on mine was also less than perfect, and still is.  The “gasket” is a bit shabby, and it doesn’t really “snap” into place.  More like just “catching” on the radiator frame on mine.  When I was checking it recently, at Ted’s recommendation, I tried “adjusting” the position, to minimize the gaps.  I  found it to be somewhat warped.  To be sure it stayed in place, I slipped a couple wire ties on, and fastened it to the radiator.   A bit awkward, but possible to get two wire ties on it by just fishing them through the square holes on top of the radiator.  Pretty sure it is tight enough now. 

For those who've had more than one C10, do all of them have the same 1.5" gap between the bottom of the radiator and the oil cooler?  Or am I missing a part?  Why would you want extra airflow going in there?

If I can still buy one, I’ll put in a new $13 top heat shield gasket the next time I do a valve adjustment/inspection.  That will probably be late in 2018.   Like KLRPhil’s, my Connie is parked for the rest of the summer while I work in Europe.  My next ride will be around Thanksgiving.  To my surprise, after two years of retirement in Ohio, a couple weeks ago I was offered my old job back, but this time in Germany.  They made me an offer I couldn’t refuse, for a 6 month assignment.  69 years old, and somebody still needs me!    I’m just arrived at my new (old) job, here on the banks of the Rhein.   For sure will raise a cold one tonight to your “can do” attitude.  Keep up the good work, and stay cool!

Dave
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Offline Jim

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2017, 10:34:22 am »
After a 3000 mile trip last week, which included west Texas and New Mexico, I have to say these vent flaps are a winner. :great:  Had one of my vent flaps break almost in half heading into Roswell so I took them both off.  What a mistake!  102 degrees, running 80 mph for hours and my legs were frying.  Put them back on for the remainder of the trip and it was immediate relief.  The single point mount and the notch over the tip-over bars worked great.  Even the one that lost the upper portion stayed in place and survived another 1800 miles.  The acrylic was too fragile to withstand buffeting from trucks, RVs, etc.  I'll go ahead and pick up some lexan and make some new ones.

If you ride for long intervals in elevated temps, you will absolutely feel the differences.  Even the right side vent, which had lost the top portion, still significantly reduced the heat on my shin and knee to the point that I was comfortable.  These are well worth the time to make and install and I can confidently now say they have no adverse effect on the cooling system operation.

One other side benefit I noticed was reduced helmet buffeting.  I thought this was just my imagination, but these do produce a noticeable reduction in buffeting from semi's, pickup trucks and crosswinds.  I have a 2.5 inch extension on my stock windshield so your results may vary.

Thanks again for sharing this idea, Dave.  These really made a difference on this trip.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 12:05:51 pm by Jim »

Offline DaveSz

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2017, 05:56:17 pm »

Hey Jim,

Thanks for your post.  Really good to hear how you are mastering the vent flaps,  tip-over bars and all.   And what a test!  “Long intervals in elevated temps” certainly applies.   Back in Ohio we’d be hiding in the basement on days like that.  Great that you’ve tested them so well down in the SW.
 
I never doubted that the cooling was OK with the vent flaps.  My temp gauge creeps up in traffic, and from 35+ mph up, when the vent flaps start to pull a bit, the temp drops pretty quickly.   
   
My stock windshield was pretty well scratched up when I got her, so after a year, I bought a tall CeeBailey screen with no vent,  and cut it to the same height as the OEM one, so I just look over the top. It has the advantage of being visually clear, and without the curl, doesn't have that buffeting going on.  But I do notice a bit more protection on my legs when riding in the rain.  Vent flaps pushing the rain out a bit farther, along with the heat. 
 
When I was a boy, I spent a year in ‘Nam patching up Hueys and such.  So aluminum is my first choice for tinkering.  With my teenage boys riding my old Hondas, have for sure had to learn some ABS repairs.  But never worked with Lexan.  Can it be heated and reshaped?  Anyhow, looking forward to seeing the deluxe photos once you get her upgraded to Lexan.   Good to share with the guys that also have tip-over bars! 

Long days in the factory here in Germany.  Walking home in the evening, I’m seeing every kind of motorcycle imaginable whizzing by.  Yesterday I saw a bright yellow C10 with matching side car!  Missing my Connie, for sure.
 
Keep up the good work, and stay cool!

Dave
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Offline Jim

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2017, 10:34:58 am »
Here's the final version made from Lexan.  Definitely not for show (still a little cleaning up to do) but they absolutely work.  Per Dave's recommendation, the flaps are 9"x5".  Used 3/8 fuel line cut at a 18-20 degree angle to force the flap firmly against the tip over bar.  The nylon bolt is a 3/8-16, 1.5 inches long.  Between bottoming the bolt into the clamp and the tension from the angled fuel line, everything stays put.  Removal/install takes seconds and they store flat against each other if you should decide to remove them while on the road.  I did glue a narrow strip of lexan on the side next to the fairing to help with the flex.  Also glued 2 small squares of lexan on either side where the bolt goes through the flap.  The flaps are positioned about 1/4" away from the fairing.  Split vacuum line glued on the inside corners are there just in case something touches.  These flex very little, as is, and with a thicker piece of lexan, flex would probably not be an issue at all.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 11:51:15 am by Jim »

Offline Stealth Connie

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2017, 12:27:20 am »
I'm glad you posted the pictures with the bar/highway pegs, because that's my #1 question.

I can see how this would help cool the legs, while on the factory pegs, but how does it feel when your calf is right at the edge of the flap? 

I have the single bar, foldable highway pegs (made by Miller I think it was???).  Anyway, when is 90's here in Georgia, my legs are not bad if pulled against body (knees touching tank). If I really bow-leg it, knees way out, it's not bad, and legs a few inches off the sides, shins lined up with scoops, IT BLAZING.  It feels like the scoops take the air coming OUT of the side vents, and pull into my shins.

Almost makes me wonder if we have the factory scoop thing backwards?? PUSH hot air from vents OUT in the summer, and PULL hot air from the vent IN during winter.   :-X

Anyhoo, when I use my highway pegs, inside of my calf barely touches the top edge of factory scoops, and I feel a good bit of heat just in that one spot. 

Have you found that you need to change the way you use highway pegs with this mod?
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Offline Jim

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2017, 10:00:50 am »
You're right about the scoops channeling hot air back onto your legs.  The top third of the scoop is right in line with the exhaust from the fairing vent.  When I'm using my highway pegs I don't recall feeling any more warmth on my shin by the flap but there is so much turbulence from my foot sticking out in the air I'd expect any heat to be well dissipated.  That's based on a 102 degree day, 75 mph with just shorts on under my mesh riding pants.  If there was more heat present, it certainly didn't stop me from using the highway pegs.  If you want to be sure how this is going to work for you, duct tape a 9" x 5" piece of heavy cardboard to the fairing and notch the other side by the tip over bars.  My initial cardboard setup lasted for days even at 70+ mph.

Offline DaveSz

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2018, 06:05:37 pm »
After 6 months in Germany, it was back to Ohio for Thanksgiving, and retirement.  Connie sat quietly in the garage, and was kept charged, and warmed up every other week.  A little sluggish at first, but she's now back in form.  Put over a thousand miles on her since the first of December.  Not bad for this cold Ohio winter.

Next to my German apartment building, there was a 1994 Kawasaki ZZR parked.  One look at it, and you could see it was from the same family as Connie.   But looking at the large side vents, you could see right into the back of the radiator.  No vent flaps needed on that little beauty.  Looking at the front of the radiator, the first thing I noticed is that the opening between the radiator and oil cooler is blocked.  Not the 1.5" gap that Connie has.   Connie's side scoops, and the 1.5" radiator opening are unique, as far as I know.

So once home and winter riding again,  I decided to block the radiator opening, to see if it had any effect on the heat I receive.   Made it from a piece of aluminum scrap, under the two screws.  During the trials with the vent flaps, I didn't have any way to actually measure temperatures around the bike, so months ago I ordered five small thermocouples, with displays, so I could  get a digital temp indication, at different points.  $1.50 each from HK, in degC.  Only took 3 months to get them, but they work!  See attached.

I spring clamped one temp sensor to a vent hose under the tank in the carb area, and then taped two sensors on each side, high and low.  Tried to get them close to the same positions on the sides.  Put the rigged up display in the map window of the tank bag, so I could watch them under different riding conditions.   Got up to 42 degF yesterday, so I took her out for a trial run, to see the temps.   Test rode it without any modification (OEM), then with just vent flaps, then with just radiator opening closed, and finally with both vent flaps and radiator opening closed.  I don't use the scoops on my Connie.  See summary of temps.

My first conclusion is that for winter, I'll ride her with just the radiator gap closed.  Slightly warmer.  And no obvious negatives.

And come summer, will leave the radiator opening closed, and put the vent flaps on.  So far, so good!

Dave
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Offline Wingedspirit

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2018, 12:03:31 am »
Great info everyone.  :great:  Got me to thinking. Oh no there's trouble. More projects than time!

Nothing new there, a good problem to have.

Thanks!

Offline CRocker

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2018, 05:31:44 am »
Interesting reading here...this will make a difference...http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/coolant-cocktail-a-more-efficient-cooling-system/

I have this in my C-10 and the temperature gauge barely moves during normal riding...it's so cool, in fact, that I wonder how much of a difference the vent flaps would make...but...they DO sound like a great idea!


Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2018, 04:24:11 pm »
Interesting reading here...this will make a difference...http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/coolant-cocktail-a-more-efficient-cooling-system/

I have this in my C-10 and the temperature gauge barely moves during normal riding...it's so cool, in fact, that I wonder how much of a difference the vent flaps would make...but...they DO sound like a great idea!


The coolant cocktail works. Hey Brad take a picture of the little ventilated plate below the oil cooler that I made. That works also. Another thing that I theorized was the addition of the SPOOFAK oil filter adaptor reduces engine heat as well. I discussed this with the inventor when I was one of his test pilots on the project. If you think about it there is air travelling over and around the oil filter which carries heat away compared to the internal oil filter assembly which is totally inside the oil pan. As Crocker mentioned his Connie (formerly mine) is one of the coolest running C-10's I have ever seen. It rarely gets above the first mark on the gauge.
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Offline CRocker

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2018, 01:35:31 pm »
Here's the pic...

Jim...I just noticed how dirty your bike looks... :truce:

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2018, 04:40:24 pm »
Here's the pic...

Jim...I just noticed how dirty your bike looks... :truce:

That's the trouble when you ride them things they get dirty.
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Offline DaveSz

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2018, 02:08:18 am »
Have never had a problem with my Connie overheating.  Cooling system has been trouble free these 43K miles.  Just found the hot air off the radiator and engine disproportionately distributed onto me on summer days.    I'd think the amount of heat off the radiator would be pretty much the same, regardless of the coolant used, but it may have some effect on the air temp of the different paths that the hot air takes.  Or the quantities.  Will need to think on that a bit. 

Your perf plate reservoir cover is just below the 1.5" opening between the rad and the oil cooler.   I read one guy moved the reservoir to let more air in there.  I'm now taking the opposite path, by covering the rad opening, and letting in less radiator "bypass" air.  Hoping to keep me warmer in winter, and cooler in summer that way.  Should lower the pressure behind the radiator. 

Your point on the Spoofak is interesting.  More surface there, for sure.  And low, and relatively far aft.  Could be a help with the heat removal.  I saw a Honda with a temp gauge built into the oil dip stick.  Not possible with Connie.  But I'm realizing that in 4 years of riding her I've never checked the oil cooler to see if it is hot, let alone how hot.  Will do that after the snow melts, and I get to ride again.   Have one of those infrared thermometers in my newly retired work tools.  Also might be possible to check the oil temp through the fill plug hole after a ride, just to compare.   Never occurred to me to check the oil temp, with the changes in air flows.  Will start paying attention to the oil temp.   I have an old car that warns me not to run it hard till the oil temp is over 200 degF.   Am curious how Connie compares. 

Stay warm!

Dave
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Offline CRocker

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2018, 02:52:05 am »
Dave, 

I am pretty simple...I’m thinking that if the temperature gauge reads lower...there’s less heat to begin with...and, the extraction of hot air would be handled easier...or, better?

You guys are definitely above my level when it comes to theory...but, I like the concept presented...anything to keep Connie cooler in the Summer... :beerchug:

Offline jacksdad

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2018, 06:13:17 pm »
Hi, just got some sheet ally to make my flaps.  ;D
One question: Do I need the plastic shroud that fits above the radiator? The one thats about 6x4"
Mine is missing, some previous owner must have not refitted it  :o
Looking forward to riding in comfort (it does actually get hot here in England...for a few days)
I had a BMW K1100LT before the C10, it was a superb bike but in hot weather it was unbearable, as in literally boiling the fuel in the tank! I do like the weather protection sports tourers offer, but I also like riding with full protective clothing  :great:

Offline cra-z1000

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2018, 10:57:20 pm »
I think it helps direct the fan air where it needs to go . Mine just broke and I found on on ebay for 10 bucks . There are a few still there for around the same price  if you need one .
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Offline DaveSz

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2018, 01:08:20 pm »
Connie_rider, in reply #17 of this thread, mentions having to put a missing top heat shield into a C10, and how hot it was without it.  Air straight off the radiator onto the bottom of the gas tank, without it.
 
Mine leaks a bit, due to my top heat shield being a bit warped, and the gasket distorted, and I now keep an eye on it to be sure it is in place.  And a couple wire ties, to be sure.  I bought a replacement, with a proper looking gasket, off ebay also for $12 delivered.  Cheaper than a new gasket alone.  Will swap it in at next valve adjustment.  She's a work in progress....

Checking oil cooler surface temp yesterday, coming in from 150 mile ride.  45 degF day.   About 150 degF with hand held laser temp sensor.  It's working!

Dave
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Offline jacksdad

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2018, 03:30:17 pm »
Thanks for the advice: I'll get a used one sourced.
I think I will add a "BMW Johnny Blanket" as well.... :great: Got loads of material left over from making my own

Offline DaveSz

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Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2018, 01:51:59 am »
Been out riding a dozen times in the last couple weeks without the vent flaps, and checking the oil temp at the sight glass with the hand held infra-red temp sensor, right after parking on the side stand.  The sensor works pretty well when shooting the oil sight glass, but not when shooting into the fill port.  So I've been comparing the sight glass temp with bottom pan of the engine, in front of the filter.   

At 40 degF ambient, the sight glass oil temp is about 160 degF after 40 miles at speed, and the engine bottom pan, up between the fins, about 170 degF.   Not nearly as hot as I expected.   

The standard COG advice for winter engine warmups is to run her for a distance, or not at all, to avoid moisture buildup in the oil.  Seems good advice with the oil staying that cool on days like this.   I was expecting the oil to be at 200+ degF after 40 miles, even on a 40 degF day.   

If we ever get some hot days, will check the oil temps with/without the vent flaps. 

Dave
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