Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours Discussion (C10 / ZG1000 / 1000GTR) => Accessories C10 => Topic started by: DaveSz on April 23, 2017, 12:11:55 am

Title: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on April 23, 2017, 12:11:55 am
Hello COG!

I love my 93 Connie w/103K, purchased in '14 with 62K.  Joined COG, and much appreciate it.  New to forums.  This is 1st post.  Usual J-box issues when I got her, but she ran great otherwise, and I started touring.  Just the usual maintenance. However, I just couldn't stand the heat in July and August.  Not much help from the stock plastic scoops on the sides.  She cooked me from boots to upper legs. 

Tried sealing more inside, around the engine, hoping to make the big side vents more efficient, but no luck.  Left side almost no hot air at all exiting the vent, and the right side had a little, that just slid back along the side panel, and onto my leg.  The vents weren't working much, probably due to shape of the fairing itself.  Too high of pressure in the vent at normal riding.  Heat coming out of her everywhere.   Considered air wings and heat shields, but neither appealed much, or did anything to make the vents themselves function better.  Thinking about the cooling flaps that I'd seen on aircraft engines, which are opened to help cooling while taxiing, I decided to try something similar.  Vent flaps.. 

Made several sizes and shapes, and finally settled on 9" high, sticking out 4", and attached by two screws each, into blocks with T-nuts behind the side panel, for quick install/removal.  Have had them on through last summer, and just installed them again.  They work.  Above 35 mph.  At speed, there is now a bunch of hot air coming out of both vents, into the flap pressure shadow.  150 degF air stream ends up passing 2" outside of my leg (except in strong crosswind).  Why they stick out 4".   Boots, ankles, shins, thighs get air slightly above ambient temp, flowing back-to-front behind the fairing and my cut down CBailey screen.  Nothing but cool air down at the carbs, with the vent flaps on.  And they help in the rain, too.  In winter, vent flaps off, she is still really warm, but I carry the flaps in the side cases in case I go south.  5 minutes to put them on when crossing the Florida line...

Have added bar risers, and a few other small farkles, but nothing that improves my summer riding like the vent flaps. $10 of 0.025" aluminum from Lowes.  Pretty homely looking, but cool at last, and riding all summer.   Will try to attach photos....

DaveSz
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Bob H on April 23, 2017, 12:28:43 am
Engine heat in hot weather is my biggest gripe about the C10.  IMO the fairing was designed by styling only.  No thought to the fact that no one really wants to sit behind a radiator on a hot day!  Engineering was allowed to make modifications only such that the engine doesn't actually overheat, and rider comfort was only addressed as an afterthought when it was too late to make meaningful changes to the design.  (I do like the bike otherwise; I must as I've still got the '88 I bought new!!)

Looks like you have made a very effective mod!
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on April 23, 2017, 12:11:55 pm
Agreed.  The vents looked like they should work, but just weren't placed or shaped right. And inside the left side is restricted.  With that big I-4 engine, engineering functioning vents and keeping the thing from getting seriously wide was tough.  The guys doing the vent design lost the argument with the rest of the design committee.  Engine doesn't overheat, just the rider. 

I have 2 old Hondas with full fairings, that do it better, but each is a bit different, and certainly not perfect.  My 87 VFR has a narrow engine, the pipes are low, and the heat off them does not use the vents.  And the vents face a bit to the rear.  In the fairing shadow, so to speak.  Not perfect, but when running hard, they work quite a bit better than Connie w/o the flaps. 

My little CBR600 has the same problem of an I-4 engine, but the vents are very large, and the rider is sealed away from the heat better by the panels and tank.  Kind of like the under tank heat shields for the Connie.  Pushes the heat lower, and helps. 

The vent flaps are easy to make and try.  My first vent flap effort was 12" high and stuck out 5", and was seriously ugly, but really worked.   Just some old roof gutter flashing, glued on with 3M Extreme brand double-sided tape, to test the concept.  The stuff is seriously sticky.  Will hold it on forever.  Rode it around out in the countryside for a week, testing.  Shortened to 9" for the 2nd effort, and still sticking out 5".  3rd was 9"  and only stuck out 3".   Too small.  Pulled some heat out, but just concentrated it on the side of my legs.   

Went back to the 9" x 4" that is on it now, used stiffer aluminum, but still with the 3M Extreme double-side tape, for a couple weeks.  Finally drilling holes and adding the ABS blocks.   Have been thinking about trying some more aerodynamic looking flaps, but these are simple and hide well in the side cases.  And anyhow, these days I don't think so much about the engine heat!
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: ron203 on April 23, 2017, 12:34:18 pm
Very ingenious. My C-10 roasted me in the summer in GA. Well done. (and thanks for joining the club.)
Ron
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: GeorgeRYoung on April 23, 2017, 04:47:35 pm
Good stuff. You've proved that not all the good ideas have already been discovered.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: JimBob on April 24, 2017, 12:22:59 am
Neat!


So you're saying with these on airflow ends up coming in the sides by the carbs, pulled forward across engine and then out the fairing vents? PRetty cool (pun intended).


If you want to make them more attractive, shape them parallel to the fairing vents (kind of a parallelogram shape). Surprisingly that shape really makes add-ons visually fit (tried it with some air wings I made myself).
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on April 24, 2017, 01:22:03 am
Can't say for sure air from the carb area goes forward past the engine and out the vents.  Could be pulled down below the carbs?  But they are getting cooled by ambient air drawn in, and not getting cooked by hot air flowing back past the engine onto the carbs (and me) anymore.  Have stuck a bare hand down and felt the carbs a bunch of times, and they are surprisingly cool, with the vent flaps on. 

At work we always said you could touch stuff up to 150 degF  without pain .  Today, riding south on US33 at 65 mph, showing 70 degF for ambient, I couldn't  keep my bare hand in the airflow behind the right side vent flap for more than a few seconds.  More like 170 degF there. just trailing off the flap.   

For sure, it would be great if somebody comes up with a more efficient, and visually pleasing, size and shape.  Further lowering the pressure there.  As long as they can still be taken on/off quickly.  Would miss that heat when I'm coming home late on a summer night!
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: SamSam on April 24, 2017, 08:03:01 pm
Backer air wings are the single best add on in my opinion.  Cool in the summer warm in the cool weather.  Check them out!
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Katsi on May 17, 2017, 01:22:42 pm
Great idea.  By the way, I'm trying to match your design.  Assuming that the 9" is the vertical edge - when you say that they stick out 4" are you talking about the distance from the faring or that the flap itself is 4"?  For example, If I were to get a piece of aluminum and cut it to 9" x 4" and gave it say a 1" mounting surface that would make the flap only 3" and thus impossible to angle out 4" from the bike.  If the flap itself were say 5" that would give it an angle of roughly 95 degrees which is just shy of perpendicular from the faring. 

Or, are you saying that the height is 4" and the overall length is 9"?  And if that is the case, what amount are you allowing for the mounting base? 2" would give a 7" flap which sticks it at just about 8" for the over all end finish length.   I don't have the faring in front of me to measure the actual hole but it seems larger than 4".  and that does not match your pictures.   :-[

Or, is it 9" x 4" with a 2" base and angled out 4" from the inside of the fearing opening - or the plastic closest to the bike?  Hope that makes sense.

Just trying to wrap my head around this is all.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Pbfoot on May 17, 2017, 01:35:55 pm
Unless you have gas tank insulation, these blocking pieces will cause more harm than good.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Katsi on May 17, 2017, 04:19:42 pm
Unless you have gas tank insulation, these blocking pieces will cause more harm than good.

OK, I'll bite.  Why?  Not trying to be a smart a**.   

It makes sense to me that these wings create a low pressure area around the natural vent which allows the heat to escape without being blocked off by a higher pressure created by the vehicle just moving along.   So wind coming through the radiator can blow pass the motor and out the vent because it is now the path of least resistance instead of that path being between the ferings and motor and onto your legs. :(     
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on May 18, 2017, 01:39:11 am
The vent flaps on my Connie now were made from a piece of 18" x 6" aluminum.  First I cut it in half, so it's two pieces of  9" x 6".   Then I clamped it in the vise the long way, with 4" sticking up, and made the bend so the mounting flange is 2" x 9", and the flap part is actually 4" x 9". 

The vent opening itself is 7" vertically, and the flaps are 9" vertically, ending up an inch above, and below.  I rounded all corners, but a bit extra off  the bottom flange part, just to make it fit a bit better, and not cover the cute red pin stripe on my '93. 

Of course, by pulling the hot air out of the vents, the heat under the tank is greatly reduced.  Carbs are cool, with ambient drawn in.  Inside of my legs is cooler than the outside.  And my boots are cool.  Heat flow is completely changed.   The flaps create a pressure shadow.  Hot air (170 degF) is coming out the vents.  Not being blocked by the flaps.

Try it.  You'll like it! 

Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on May 18, 2017, 01:59:00 am
Took off the left flap, for a picture. 
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim on May 18, 2017, 12:36:36 pm
That's a great idea.  Thanks for pics. :great: 

After looking at your setup I was thinking my tip-over bars would be in the way.  But actually, it looks like they would provide mounting points so I would not have to drill into the fairing.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on May 18, 2017, 07:04:43 pm
Jim,

I started testing the vent flaps by sticking them on with 3M extreme double sided tape.  Hated to drill through the thin fairing.  But later, when I was satisfied with the flap performance, I just drilled right through vent flap, tape,  and fairing at the same time, when preparing to mount the ABS blocks and T-nuts.  Would recommend just taping yours on till you are satisfied they are the the right size for your Connie.  And if you have the tip-over bars to help "support" them in the wind, the double side tape would work pretty well.  You may want to try making them a bit bigger, or a bit different shape.  5" flap would move the heat further outboard than the 4" ones.  Easy to cut down later.     All I can say for sure is, don't cut them any smaller than the 9" x 4" that  I'm using.   

And when you are happy with them, post a picture showing how you fitted them in front of the tip-over bars!

Stay cool....


Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: oldsmoboat on May 20, 2017, 02:21:16 pm
I actually had to look down yesterday to be sure my foot wasn't on fire.  And it was only in the 80s.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim on May 23, 2017, 10:40:07 am
Picked up a couple of cushioned split clamps from Grainger to mount the flaps to my tip-over bars.  For $2.70 each, these work great.  The clamping screw pops out so it doesn't have to be removed, only loosened slightly, to get the clamp off/on the bar.  Did the right side last night with a 9 x 4 piece of cardboard.  Worked fine this morning except the angle of defection with respect to actual wind flow (not the surface of the fairing) was about 22 degrees.  I'm going to increase the width from 4 to 5 inches so I can get a higher angle plus be able to cut a 1" slot in the outer edge to fit around the top-over bar.  This will give the stability I need so the flap does not have to touch the side of the fairing and will only have 1 attachment point.  Thursday is supposed to be 90 degrees so that should be a good test out on the highway.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: connie_rider on May 23, 2017, 01:25:59 pm
Dave, You have a clean machine there.
I like to see the continuing inventions on the Forum.
You seem to be onto something, but I have a concern that the vents could break the fairing if you bumped them.
Be careful...

Question; Are all of your original heat shields in place? (located; sides and top, under the fairing)
In particular; I'm wondering about the one on top of the engine. (located forward of the valve cover)
It's purpose is to prevent airflow over the top of the engine.
Many have lost or removed that piece when doing valve adjustment's, and may be suffering more heat, because of it.

Explanation: At 1 time, I had 2 Connies.
1 was {more} hot to ride. The other normal.
I later discovered that the upper piece was missing.
Buying and re-installing that piece helped quite a bit.

Ride safe, Ted


Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on May 24, 2017, 04:01:08 am
Hi Ted,

Thanks for the suggestion, based on your two bikes.  My top heat shield, from radiator to valve cover, is in there.  Can reach in the front, over the radiator, and put my hand on it.  Rainy day tomorrow, so I'll lift the fuel tank and make sure the heat  shield fit is OK.  Did a valve adjust in January, and anyhow need to check the wells to see if the new well seals have any oil leaks.  Will take a picture, and look for any needed extra sealing.

The vent flaps I'm using are  made from 0.025" aluminum, and it is springy, and not really rigid.   T6 or similar, I'd guess.  $10 piece from Lowes.   I can bend it back an inch without any lasting distortion, with one finger.   But they never have bent  on their own while riding into the wind.  Put them on early last summer, and have bumped them on the Jeep bumper in my home garage, more than a few times.   Four motorcycles in one bay, plus a lot of other less interesting junk.   Never worried about the fairing breaking that much, as I put the ABS blocks on right away, when I drilled for the screws, and the fairing panels don't seem to have any significant flexing when you wiggle the vent flaps by hand.  And no apparent cracks around the vent flap screws during the last year.   

Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on May 24, 2017, 03:41:39 pm
Picked up a couple of cushioned split clamps from Grainger to mount the flaps to my tip-over bars.  For $2.70 each, these work great.  The clamping screw pops out so it doesn't have to be removed, only loosened slightly, to get the clamp off/on the bar.  Did the right side last night with a 9 x 4 piece of cardboard.  Worked fine this morning except the angle of defection with respect to actual wind flow (not the surface of the fairing) was about 22 degrees.  I'm going to increase the width from 4 to 5 inches so I can get a higher angle plus be able to cut a 1" slot in the outer edge to fit around the top-over bar.  This will give the stability I need so the flap does not have to touch the side of the fairing and will only have 1 attachment point.  Thursday is supposed to be 90 degrees so that should be a good test out on the highway.

Hi Jim,

Didn't think of a clamp like that for your vent flap, though I've seen lots of them in factories.  Great because it will allow you to try different angles, sizes, materials for the flap, without any  scars on your Connie.  Quick adjustment, or total removal.  Good choice! 

I think you will find the 5" size works better, particularly in a crosswind.  4" is enough otherwise.  For sure there have been days when I was riding south in a wind from the west, when I'd have liked that heat pulled a little farther outboard.   

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on May 25, 2017, 12:14:32 am

Question; Are all of your original heat shields in place? (located; sides and top,  under the fairing)
In particular; I'm wondering about the one on top of the engine. (located forward of the valve cover)
It's purpose is to prevent airflow over the top of the engine.
Many have lost or removed that piece when doing valve adjustment's, and may be suffering more heat, because of it.


Hi Ted,

Pulled the tank, to get a good look at the top radiator heat shield.  Didn't get a very good picture, but you can see the heat shield in the attached. 

The top engine heat shield itself looked OK, but the rubber "edging" around the shield did not fit so well in places.  It was distorted, and left a short gap of up to 10mm wide opening.   Room for hot air to leak back onto the valve cover, if I didn't have the vent flap to keep the area between engine and radiator negative.   

Would be good to have a supply of new rubber edging for the engine heat shields.    Just needs to have the gaps filled a bit better.  I put some sticky foam strips in a couple obvious leaks, but they don't stay in place very long.  Perhaps modifying the shape of the shield?  Slap some ABS glue on it, and strips of ABS, to extend the  shield  to fit the opening better?  Could only help. 

Oh, and the plug wells were dry!

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim on May 25, 2017, 10:37:57 am
Dave, took your advice and updated to 5" flaps.  Still using cardboard with just a single mounting point and still very little defection.  Today will be the highway test on the way home, 90 degrees with 20 mph winds which I'll get from all direction at some point so I should get a pretty good idea of how things will behave with turbulence.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: connie_rider on May 26, 2017, 12:41:04 am
Thanks Dave. That looks kee-rekt.

Ride safe, Ted

Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim on May 27, 2017, 05:00:32 pm
Ok, proto-type installed.  If it works, the large bolt will be replaced with nylon all-thread and a knob for easy removal/install which right now takes about 30 seconds.  Used an old acrylic clip-board which just happened to be 9 inches wide and had finished sides and nice rounded corners.  Only had to cut the 5 inch width and that side is up close to the fairing.  I'll give it a workout and see if it stays in place and doesn't flex too much (or shatter).
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: ron203 on May 27, 2017, 05:48:42 pm
Looks great. Did you do two or just the one proto-type?
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: JimBob on May 28, 2017, 01:26:21 am
Thanks for the pic, Jim. That's an ingenious approach!


Please keep reporting - looking forward to making some of my own
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on May 28, 2017, 12:18:51 pm
Ok, proto-type installed.  If it works, the large bolt will be replaced with nylon all-thread and a knob for easy removal/install which right now takes about 30 seconds.  Used an old acrylic clip-board which just happened to be 9 inches wide and had finished sides and nice rounded corners.  Only had to cut the 5 inch width and that side is up close to the fairing.  I'll give it a workout and see if it stays in place and doesn't flex too much (or shatter).

Jim,
Looks good.  You've fitted nicely around the tip over bar, and still lined up well with the right vent.  The support from the tip over bar will be great to keep it aligned.

Being on the right side, it anyhow is a larger opening vent, and will have much more hot air coming out than the left vent.  With the throttle clamp on, I like to reach down and feel the heat while cruising, and the air out of the vent is HOT.  Might "bend" the acrylic a bit.  But you have really good support. 

Dave

Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim on May 28, 2017, 01:31:44 pm
Second one is cut, just not mounted, yet.  Should have it completed tomorrow.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim on June 06, 2017, 11:06:04 am
So far, so good.  Flaps are stable with the single mounting bolt and the outward side slipped over the tip-over bar.  If you try this with tip-over bars, the cutout for the right and left bars are slightly different.  I had to use a small section of 1" radiator hose on the left bar to make up the difference.  It is still a little weird trying to get used to the lack of air mid-calf on my legs but I'm definitely not feeling the blast of heat.  I have my foot vents installed and there is still a good flow of cooler air about a 1/3 of the way up from the bottom for your toes.  I'll try some foam on the upper portion to see if it helps anything.  I've done a resistor mod to the temperature sending unit which makes the temp gauge work over a wider range for greater sensitivity.  At highway speeds on a 95+ degree day, the temp gauge needle is still standing straight up, as usual.  So I'd say there doesn't appear to be any detrimental effects to the cooling system performance (I know, not very scientific).

Thanks again, Dave.  A libation of your choice will be on me. :beerchug:
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: danodemotoman on June 06, 2017, 11:46:31 pm
  Don't want to go on and on about it... but...The oem top heat shield should 'snap' in place on locating tabs. If not then much heat escapes over the top.
 I have had 4 c10's and each was different as far as the top shield locating flush on top of the rad. The '01 kept lifting off when re checked.
 Some time in the past another had configured the side vent shields on the rear side.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim on June 07, 2017, 10:53:55 am
Thanks Dan.  Verified my heat shield was firmly in place when I adjusted my valves back in February.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on June 07, 2017, 04:31:46 pm
Hi Jim,
Glad that you worked out the fit of the flaps around the tip-over bars.   And that you are getting rid of the heat with them.    Really nice to reach down and feel the heat steaming out the vents, behind the flaps, and passing me by.   Last year, when I was trying out the different size flaps, I pulled off the OEM air scoops, and just never went  back to them.  With my boots on the stock pegs, they are no hotter than anybody wearing tall black waterproof touring boots to do anything in the summer.  The side in the sun is warmer, but that’s about it.
 
To Dan’s point, the fit of the top heat shield on mine was also less than perfect, and still is.  The “gasket” is a bit shabby, and it doesn’t really “snap” into place.  More like just “catching” on the radiator frame on mine.  When I was checking it recently, at Ted’s recommendation, I tried “adjusting” the position, to minimize the gaps.  I  found it to be somewhat warped.  To be sure it stayed in place, I slipped a couple wire ties on, and fastened it to the radiator.   A bit awkward, but possible to get two wire ties on it by just fishing them through the square holes on top of the radiator.  Pretty sure it is tight enough now. 

For those who've had more than one C10, do all of them have the same 1.5" gap between the bottom of the radiator and the oil cooler?  Or am I missing a part?  Why would you want extra airflow going in there?

If I can still buy one, I’ll put in a new $13 top heat shield gasket the next time I do a valve adjustment/inspection.  That will probably be late in 2018.   Like KLRPhil’s, my Connie is parked for the rest of the summer while I work in Europe.  My next ride will be around Thanksgiving.  To my surprise, after two years of retirement in Ohio, a couple weeks ago I was offered my old job back, but this time in Germany.  They made me an offer I couldn’t refuse, for a 6 month assignment.  69 years old, and somebody still needs me!    I’m just arrived at my new (old) job, here on the banks of the Rhein.   For sure will raise a cold one tonight to your “can do” attitude.  Keep up the good work, and stay cool!

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim on June 20, 2017, 10:34:22 am
After a 3000 mile trip last week, which included west Texas and New Mexico, I have to say these vent flaps are a winner. :great:  Had one of my vent flaps break almost in half heading into Roswell so I took them both off.  What a mistake!  102 degrees, running 80 mph for hours and my legs were frying.  Put them back on for the remainder of the trip and it was immediate relief.  The single point mount and the notch over the tip-over bars worked great.  Even the one that lost the upper portion stayed in place and survived another 1800 miles.  The acrylic was too fragile to withstand buffeting from trucks, RVs, etc.  I'll go ahead and pick up some lexan and make some new ones.

If you ride for long intervals in elevated temps, you will absolutely feel the differences.  Even the right side vent, which had lost the top portion, still significantly reduced the heat on my shin and knee to the point that I was comfortable.  These are well worth the time to make and install and I can confidently now say they have no adverse effect on the cooling system operation.

One other side benefit I noticed was reduced helmet buffeting.  I thought this was just my imagination, but these do produce a noticeable reduction in buffeting from semi's, pickup trucks and crosswinds.  I have a 2.5 inch extension on my stock windshield so your results may vary.

Thanks again for sharing this idea, Dave.  These really made a difference on this trip.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on June 21, 2017, 05:56:17 pm

Hey Jim,

Thanks for your post.  Really good to hear how you are mastering the vent flaps,  tip-over bars and all.   And what a test!  “Long intervals in elevated temps” certainly applies.   Back in Ohio we’d be hiding in the basement on days like that.  Great that you’ve tested them so well down in the SW.
 
I never doubted that the cooling was OK with the vent flaps.  My temp gauge creeps up in traffic, and from 35+ mph up, when the vent flaps start to pull a bit, the temp drops pretty quickly.   
   
My stock windshield was pretty well scratched up when I got her, so after a year, I bought a tall CeeBailey screen with no vent,  and cut it to the same height as the OEM one, so I just look over the top. It has the advantage of being visually clear, and without the curl, doesn't have that buffeting going on.  But I do notice a bit more protection on my legs when riding in the rain.  Vent flaps pushing the rain out a bit farther, along with the heat. 
 
When I was a boy, I spent a year in ‘Nam patching up Hueys and such.  So aluminum is my first choice for tinkering.  With my teenage boys riding my old Hondas, have for sure had to learn some ABS repairs.  But never worked with Lexan.  Can it be heated and reshaped?  Anyhow, looking forward to seeing the deluxe photos once you get her upgraded to Lexan.   Good to share with the guys that also have tip-over bars! 

Long days in the factory here in Germany.  Walking home in the evening, I’m seeing every kind of motorcycle imaginable whizzing by.  Yesterday I saw a bright yellow C10 with matching side car!  Missing my Connie, for sure.
 
Keep up the good work, and stay cool!

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim on July 13, 2017, 10:34:58 am
Here's the final version made from Lexan.  Definitely not for show (still a little cleaning up to do) but they absolutely work.  Per Dave's recommendation, the flaps are 9"x5".  Used 3/8 fuel line cut at a 18-20 degree angle to force the flap firmly against the tip over bar.  The nylon bolt is a 3/8-16, 1.5 inches long.  Between bottoming the bolt into the clamp and the tension from the angled fuel line, everything stays put.  Removal/install takes seconds and they store flat against each other if you should decide to remove them while on the road.  I did glue a narrow strip of lexan on the side next to the fairing to help with the flex.  Also glued 2 small squares of lexan on either side where the bolt goes through the flap.  The flaps are positioned about 1/4" away from the fairing.  Split vacuum line glued on the inside corners are there just in case something touches.  These flex very little, as is, and with a thicker piece of lexan, flex would probably not be an issue at all.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Stealth Connie on July 31, 2017, 12:27:20 am
I'm glad you posted the pictures with the bar/highway pegs, because that's my #1 question.

I can see how this would help cool the legs, while on the factory pegs, but how does it feel when your calf is right at the edge of the flap? 

I have the single bar, foldable highway pegs (made by Miller I think it was???).  Anyway, when is 90's here in Georgia, my legs are not bad if pulled against body (knees touching tank). If I really bow-leg it, knees way out, it's not bad, and legs a few inches off the sides, shins lined up with scoops, IT BLAZING.  It feels like the scoops take the air coming OUT of the side vents, and pull into my shins.

Almost makes me wonder if we have the factory scoop thing backwards?? PUSH hot air from vents OUT in the summer, and PULL hot air from the vent IN during winter.   :-X

Anyhoo, when I use my highway pegs, inside of my calf barely touches the top edge of factory scoops, and I feel a good bit of heat just in that one spot. 

Have you found that you need to change the way you use highway pegs with this mod?
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim on July 31, 2017, 10:00:50 am
You're right about the scoops channeling hot air back onto your legs.  The top third of the scoop is right in line with the exhaust from the fairing vent.  When I'm using my highway pegs I don't recall feeling any more warmth on my shin by the flap but there is so much turbulence from my foot sticking out in the air I'd expect any heat to be well dissipated.  That's based on a 102 degree day, 75 mph with just shorts on under my mesh riding pants.  If there was more heat present, it certainly didn't stop me from using the highway pegs.  If you want to be sure how this is going to work for you, duct tape a 9" x 5" piece of heavy cardboard to the fairing and notch the other side by the tip over bars.  My initial cardboard setup lasted for days even at 70+ mph.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on February 02, 2018, 06:05:37 pm
After 6 months in Germany, it was back to Ohio for Thanksgiving, and retirement.  Connie sat quietly in the garage, and was kept charged, and warmed up every other week.  A little sluggish at first, but she's now back in form.  Put over a thousand miles on her since the first of December.  Not bad for this cold Ohio winter.

Next to my German apartment building, there was a 1994 Kawasaki ZZR parked.  One look at it, and you could see it was from the same family as Connie.   But looking at the large side vents, you could see right into the back of the radiator.  No vent flaps needed on that little beauty.  Looking at the front of the radiator, the first thing I noticed is that the opening between the radiator and oil cooler is blocked.  Not the 1.5" gap that Connie has.   Connie's side scoops, and the 1.5" radiator opening are unique, as far as I know.

So once home and winter riding again,  I decided to block the radiator opening, to see if it had any effect on the heat I receive.   Made it from a piece of aluminum scrap, under the two screws.  During the trials with the vent flaps, I didn't have any way to actually measure temperatures around the bike, so months ago I ordered five small thermocouples, with displays, so I could  get a digital temp indication, at different points.  $1.50 each from HK, in degC.  Only took 3 months to get them, but they work!  See attached.

I spring clamped one temp sensor to a vent hose under the tank in the carb area, and then taped two sensors on each side, high and low.  Tried to get them close to the same positions on the sides.  Put the rigged up display in the map window of the tank bag, so I could watch them under different riding conditions.   Got up to 42 degF yesterday, so I took her out for a trial run, to see the temps.   Test rode it without any modification (OEM), then with just vent flaps, then with just radiator opening closed, and finally with both vent flaps and radiator opening closed.  I don't use the scoops on my Connie.  See summary of temps.

My first conclusion is that for winter, I'll ride her with just the radiator gap closed.  Slightly warmer.  And no obvious negatives.

And come summer, will leave the radiator opening closed, and put the vent flaps on.  So far, so good!

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Wingedspirit on February 03, 2018, 12:03:31 am
Great info everyone.  :great:  Got me to thinking. Oh no there's trouble. More projects than time!

Nothing new there, a good problem to have.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: CRocker on February 03, 2018, 05:31:44 am
Interesting reading here...this will make a difference...http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/coolant-cocktail-a-more-efficient-cooling-system/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/coolant-cocktail-a-more-efficient-cooling-system/)

I have this in my C-10 and the temperature gauge barely moves during normal riding...it's so cool, in fact, that I wonder how much of a difference the vent flaps would make...but...they DO sound like a great idea!

Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 03, 2018, 04:24:11 pm
Interesting reading here...this will make a difference...[url]http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/coolant-cocktail-a-more-efficient-cooling-system/[/url] ([url]http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/coolant-cocktail-a-more-efficient-cooling-system/[/url])

I have this in my C-10 and the temperature gauge barely moves during normal riding...it's so cool, in fact, that I wonder how much of a difference the vent flaps would make...but...they DO sound like a great idea!


The coolant cocktail works. Hey Brad take a picture of the little ventilated plate below the oil cooler that I made. That works also. Another thing that I theorized was the addition of the SPOOFAK oil filter adaptor reduces engine heat as well. I discussed this with the inventor when I was one of his test pilots on the project. If you think about it there is air travelling over and around the oil filter which carries heat away compared to the internal oil filter assembly which is totally inside the oil pan. As Crocker mentioned his Connie (formerly mine) is one of the coolest running C-10's I have ever seen. It rarely gets above the first mark on the gauge.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: CRocker on February 05, 2018, 01:35:31 pm
Here's the pic...

Jim...I just noticed how dirty your bike looks... :truce:
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim Snyder on February 05, 2018, 04:40:24 pm
Here's the pic...

Jim...I just noticed how dirty your bike looks... :truce:

That's the trouble when you ride them things they get dirty.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on February 06, 2018, 02:08:18 am
Have never had a problem with my Connie overheating.  Cooling system has been trouble free these 43K miles.  Just found the hot air off the radiator and engine disproportionately distributed onto me on summer days.    I'd think the amount of heat off the radiator would be pretty much the same, regardless of the coolant used, but it may have some effect on the air temp of the different paths that the hot air takes.  Or the quantities.  Will need to think on that a bit. 

Your perf plate reservoir cover is just below the 1.5" opening between the rad and the oil cooler.   I read one guy moved the reservoir to let more air in there.  I'm now taking the opposite path, by covering the rad opening, and letting in less radiator "bypass" air.  Hoping to keep me warmer in winter, and cooler in summer that way.  Should lower the pressure behind the radiator. 

Your point on the Spoofak is interesting.  More surface there, for sure.  And low, and relatively far aft.  Could be a help with the heat removal.  I saw a Honda with a temp gauge built into the oil dip stick.  Not possible with Connie.  But I'm realizing that in 4 years of riding her I've never checked the oil cooler to see if it is hot, let alone how hot.  Will do that after the snow melts, and I get to ride again.   Have one of those infrared thermometers in my newly retired work tools.  Also might be possible to check the oil temp through the fill plug hole after a ride, just to compare.   Never occurred to me to check the oil temp, with the changes in air flows.  Will start paying attention to the oil temp.   I have an old car that warns me not to run it hard till the oil temp is over 200 degF.   Am curious how Connie compares. 

Stay warm!

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: CRocker on February 06, 2018, 02:52:05 am
Dave, 

I am pretty simple...I’m thinking that if the temperature gauge reads lower...there’s less heat to begin with...and, the extraction of hot air would be handled easier...or, better?

You guys are definitely above my level when it comes to theory...but, I like the concept presented...anything to keep Connie cooler in the Summer... :beerchug:
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: jacksdad on February 25, 2018, 06:13:17 pm
Hi, just got some sheet ally to make my flaps.  ;D
One question: Do I need the plastic shroud that fits above the radiator? The one thats about 6x4"
Mine is missing, some previous owner must have not refitted it  :o
Looking forward to riding in comfort (it does actually get hot here in England...for a few days)
I had a BMW K1100LT before the C10, it was a superb bike but in hot weather it was unbearable, as in literally boiling the fuel in the tank! I do like the weather protection sports tourers offer, but I also like riding with full protective clothing  :great:
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: cra-z1000 on February 25, 2018, 10:57:20 pm
I think it helps direct the fan air where it needs to go . Mine just broke and I found on on ebay for 10 bucks . There are a few still there for around the same price  if you need one .
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on February 26, 2018, 01:08:20 pm
Connie_rider, in reply #17 of this thread, mentions having to put a missing top heat shield into a C10, and how hot it was without it.  Air straight off the radiator onto the bottom of the gas tank, without it.
 
Mine leaks a bit, due to my top heat shield being a bit warped, and the gasket distorted, and I now keep an eye on it to be sure it is in place.  And a couple wire ties, to be sure.  I bought a replacement, with a proper looking gasket, off ebay also for $12 delivered.  Cheaper than a new gasket alone.  Will swap it in at next valve adjustment.  She's a work in progress....

Checking oil cooler surface temp yesterday, coming in from 150 mile ride.  45 degF day.   About 150 degF with hand held laser temp sensor.  It's working!

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: jacksdad on February 26, 2018, 03:30:17 pm
Thanks for the advice: I'll get a used one sourced.
I think I will add a "BMW Johnny Blanket" as well.... :great: Got loads of material left over from making my own
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on March 17, 2018, 01:51:59 am
Been out riding a dozen times in the last couple weeks without the vent flaps, and checking the oil temp at the sight glass with the hand held infra-red temp sensor, right after parking on the side stand.  The sensor works pretty well when shooting the oil sight glass, but not when shooting into the fill port.  So I've been comparing the sight glass temp with bottom pan of the engine, in front of the filter.   

At 40 degF ambient, the sight glass oil temp is about 160 degF after 40 miles at speed, and the engine bottom pan, up between the fins, about 170 degF.   Not nearly as hot as I expected.   

The standard COG advice for winter engine warmups is to run her for a distance, or not at all, to avoid moisture buildup in the oil.  Seems good advice with the oil staying that cool on days like this.   I was expecting the oil to be at 200+ degF after 40 miles, even on a 40 degF day.   

If we ever get some hot days, will check the oil temps with/without the vent flaps. 

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Gusto on March 28, 2018, 02:09:02 am
Dave thanks for all your research on all this stuff.  It gets real hot here in Texas and I’m going to make my flaps soon.  I wore ankle socks with my riding pants on a warm day and the hot air burned my left leg pretty good. Painful and red. Full length socks fixed the issue for now but it’s not July yet!!
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on March 28, 2018, 09:36:43 pm
For anybody having trouble keeping their top heat shield in place, I find it easy enough to check by just reaching in between the forks.  And easy enough to fasten in place with a wire tie on each corner.  Through the square holes in the top heat shield, and around the tabs and screws of the rad's protective screen.  Seems to be holding fine.  See photo of left side wire tie, on my Connie.  Camera held just between the forks for the photo. 

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Bob_C_CT on March 29, 2018, 12:33:16 am
Good idea DaveSz. Looking at your photo that wire loom behind the radiator screw seems like one of those wires are getting chaffed. I gotta make me a pair of those shields for the warmer weather. Thanks for all the research that went into the design.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on March 29, 2018, 11:54:36 am
Thanks, Bob.  The wiring isn't so tidy, but has a bunch of that "liquid tape" on it, so should be OK.  But not pretty.  I recently soldered in a  temp sensor bypass switch on the radiator fan, so I could try a bit of "manual fan" when I'm caught in traffic.  Was reading about the "BMW Johnny Blanket", mentioned by Jacksdad, and one of the BMW guys on their forum mentioned using a manual fan switch in traffic.  Just thought I'd try it on Connie, when we finally get some heat this summer.   The vent flaps work pretty well when riding, but sitting and cooking in traffic is still an issue.

Dave
 
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: connie_rider on March 29, 2018, 01:04:12 pm
Be carful with your fan bypass switch.
  Leaving it on accidentally {when you get off the bike}, will quickly drain the battery.
     {Don't ask me how  know this   :-[}

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on March 30, 2018, 01:04:59 am
Hi Ted,

The fan is on a 10 amp fuse on my Connie.  Was curious about the amps pulled, so tried a 5 amp fuse.  Blew in 5 seconds.  So somewhere between 6 and 9 amps?  Don't have a suitable meter for DC amps handy.  But for sure don't want to leave it on!   Fortunately, had a left-over switch with indicator light in my electrical junk drawer, and it is bright enough to be seen in daylight.  Also was tempted by a spare turn signal beeper, but I'm making too much noise as it is!

The BMW guys thought running the fan on manual was some help with heat when in traffic.  What do you think for the Connie?

Dave

Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: connie_rider on March 31, 2018, 08:57:10 am
It kept the engine cooler.
One drawback; It also {continuously} blows heat back on your leg.

In Houston stop and go,,, arghhhhhhhhh!!

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on April 16, 2018, 12:55:16 am
We finally had three warm days (70+ degF) to ride this week.  Screaming winds, but still much appreciated.  I wanted to measure the oil temps with/without the vent flaps.  Had gotten 160 degF sight glass/170 bottom of pan when riding without vent flaps on 40 degF ambient days.  Cooler than I expected. 

With the ambient at 70 - 75 degF, and no vent flaps, and checking after 20 miles at motorway speed, I had 190/200 degF (sight glass/bottom of pan) with the laser infrared temp sensor.   And for sure, hot legs. 

Then with the vent flaps on, and the same ambient temps, I found the engine oil temps to be lower after riding 20 miles.  180/190.  And for sure, I had cooler legs. 
 
But when I rode on to the next rest stop on the motorway, cool and comfortable with the vent flaps still on, and checked again, the oil temperatures had eventually risen to 190/200 degF.  Took a little longer to heat up, but as far as I can measure with the hand held sensor, the oil temp with vent flaps on ends up reaching the same temperature (as without vent flaps) after 40 miles at speed.   

Did several checks this week, with some small variation, but effectively the same results.   Will make another comparison when the temps get up in the 80s.  Am curious how hot the oil gets on Connie.   

Am thinking how to put a more accurate digital oil temp sensor on Connie full time.  Anyone do that?  So far, the only idea I've had is to drill out one of the oil drain plugs, and solder in an RTD temp sensor with digital display.  Suggestions?  Would be better than just the radiator temp for judging winter warmups!

Dave

Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on June 21, 2018, 10:48:09 pm
 Been enjoying the summer, and riding whenever possible.  Now with the added manual fan switch, I'm just flipping it on coming into traffic situations.  Better.  Still thinking about her heat though, and learning. 

Have added 3 K-thermocouples w/ red LED displays.    One on her chin, just under the headlight, for measuring ambient air temp.  Another about 1 inch above No. 3 carb, for air temp under the tank.  And the third is installed in the front oil drain plug, for measuring oil temp.  The oil plug is overall 25 mm long, and I drilled a 23 mm deep hole in it, and tapped it for the thermocouple threads.   Displays in degC.  $5 each.  Photos attached.

Also added an automotive temp sensor to the thermostat housing, to monitor the water temp leaving the engine.  It is a routine sort of 1/8 NPT sensor, with a blue LED display.  Sold for use in water or oil.  $13.  A better tool for this business, as it can easily be seen in daylight, and reads in degF.  Chose to remove the allen socket drain plug on the thermostat housing and tap and install the sensor there.  Fits nicely just below the thermostat that way, in its drain channel.   Put 2K miles on her with it installed, and no leak or anything.  Yet....

With the temp sensors all hooked up and measuring, I've been watching and comparing the new digital temp gauges with the original "vague" factory temp gauge.  Some observations......

-  On a 74 degF morning, the thermostat temp climbs to 175 degF and levels out after only 3 or 4 miles.  It stays near 175 degF  after 40 miles on the freeway at 70 mph.  The oil temp will slowly climb to 165 degF after 15 miles, and will gradually ease up to 170 degF by the 40 mile mark.

-   With 175 degF showing on the new blue digital thermostat display, the original factory temp gauge is pointing just at the right side of the "square" above the C.  Can reasonably think of the left side scale (C) of the original engine temp gauge as starting at just 160 degF (and straight up as 212 degF) on my Connie.

-  When I slow down and exit the freeway with the rad fan turned on manually, the thermostat temp goes up to 185 degF after two traffic lights, and the original temp gauge pointer just moves 2 or 3 mm hotter.  Oil temp goes up slower, but goes up about 10 degF also.

-  When I slow down and exit the freeway with the rad fan off , and being controlled by the auto fan switch, in two traffic lights the pointer has moved to the middle, the thermostat temp has risen to 212 degF, and the fan kicks on automatically at that temp.  Oil temp heating up slower, but along with the thermostat temp.  The thermostat temp overshoots the 212 degF setpoint of the switch, up to 218 degF.  By the third traffic light, the temps are creeping down slowly, but not enough to turn off the fan in slow traffic.  Fan goes off once above 25 mph, and entering the freeway, and after 4 or 5 miles, she settles back at 175 degF on the new blue digital thermostat temp display. 

-  With vent flaps on, and the rad opening closed, the temp above the carbs was just 10 - 12 degF above ambient, while at freeway speed.  Legs comfortable.

Installing a 50 amp shunt next, to verify the amperage used.  Interested in total output amps of alternator, with/without rad fan, etc..

Ordered a new cap for the radiator.  Is blowing out the cap a bit, when temp above 212 degF today.   With 13 psig cap, shouldn't be. 

DaveSz
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Lee on June 29, 2018, 12:36:27 am
Thanks for all this work up! Watching closely as it goes. Good information to have!
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: connie_rider on June 29, 2018, 02:04:17 pm
Over the years some have moved the coolant reservoir to try to increase cool air flowing past the engine.
Would you gages show if this works or not?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: crag antler on June 29, 2018, 09:02:37 pm
I've been following this as with summer here in the White Mountains, it is warming up.
Going to be hotter here than where I moved from in Florida. 95 vs. mid 80's. >:(
Thought I didn't have the radiator cover so ordered one from eBay.
Low and behold when I had her apart for the Murphs headlight harness, I found mine.
It had slid back. Snapped it back on and have to see the difference.
Anyone needs the cover, its yours for shipping.

Great idea with the wings.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on June 30, 2018, 03:34:01 am
Warming up today.  Was out on the freeway in the afternoon, with ambient bumping 90 degF.   The digital thermostat temp settled at 180 degF, after a few miles at 70 mph. (It had  settled at 175 degF, on a 74 degF day.)  Carb area air temp at +10 degF over ambient, at speed.  Oil temps lagging the thermostat temps, and only 5 degF lower.   When thermostat temp up, oil temp up a bit after.  Thermostat temp down, oil temp gradually back down too, but slower.  New digital thermostat temp is much more reactive, and interesting.  And readable in bright sunlight.

Ted,

Not only is there a large opening between the stock Connie radiator, and the oil cooler, but there are openings low on the sides, and bottom of the fairing, to allow a LOT of air to BYPASS the radiator and oil cooler, and increase pressure and air flow between the rad and motor.  But these openings reduce the air flow through the radiator  and oil cooler, by decreasing the pressure drop across both.   I'm thinking that relocating the coolant reservoir would just increase the amount of bypass air, and make the rad and oil cooler less effective.  I'm riding with the vent flaps on, and the radiator gap closed to get more air through them, and less bypass air, and drawing the smaller volume of hotter air out the vents, away from the motor.  Vent air is hot.

Will think about it some.  Air temp rig is laying around somewhere.  Do have some other tests in mind, and a just plain fun ride up to Lake Erie tomorrow.  It's a 94 degF afternoon coming, and I wouldn't have thought of going out for the day, before putting the vent flaps on her.   I don't do it often, but today I was wearing sandles while riding, instead of the boots.  Ankles and feet were a bit above ambient, but comfortable, without the side scoops on.

Dave

Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: connie_rider on June 30, 2018, 05:04:07 pm
Do have some other tests in mind,

I'm a retired research technician. So, I think of things as a comparison.
What I don't see in your testing is a baseline...
I would put the Vent Flaps back to stock {for a baseline} and compare those numbers with what you have now.
Perhaps you could do this halfway thru your ride to compare the numbers on the same day?

On the tank removal, the fan on my bike never comes on while cruising.
Only at lower speeds or stop/go traffic.

The only time I really notice heat on my legs is when the fan comes on and pulls air only thru the radiator..
Makes me think that the air that bypasses the radiator (and at the scoops) is mixing sufficiently to control temps at my legs.
Was just wondering if removing the tank, actually helped when cruising.
Your gauges might show any difference..

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on July 02, 2018, 02:48:46 am
Hi Ted,

Am planning to make another set of vent flaps for my Connie.  Slightly larger, for hot days like yesterday.  Or times when a crosswind pushes the vent air heat back on me.  Will drag out my previous air temp sensors, and position them near my leg, for comparison.  Will put her back in stock (OEM)  for that also, as I did in February when testing the rad closure.  This time with a good digital indication of the thermostat/engine  temp, in each configuration.   

While the air temps at key points can be measured for the different configurations, there will also be big differences in air flows, which will not be measured.   

Will see how it goes, but can probably pull out the rad overflow tank, rig a temporary replacement, and make another run for that configuration.  Will be a few weeks though, as I'm occupied with other stuff for now.  And just riding when I can escape.  Next escape is tomorrow at 07:00 hrs !!

Yesterday, rode up to Port Clinton and back, with ambient rising to 94 degF on the way back.   Cruising at 70 mph, the thermostat sat right at 180 degF.   As before, I usually flipped on the fan when coming down the exit ramp of the freeway, and kept it on in traffic.   With 90+ degF ambient, and the fan on, she held at 195 degF or less on the thermostat housing, in slow traffic. 

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: crag antler on July 03, 2018, 07:32:07 pm
Dave, it looks like your idea is coming along quite well.
If you ever have the desire, I would be up for purchasing a set for my '00.
Doug
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on July 05, 2018, 03:30:32 pm
Doug,

There's not much to making a pair of vent flaps.   Yesterday bought a 12" x 24" sheet of 0.025" thick aluminum at Menards, the home improvement store, for $10.  Very springy.  Equivalent of T6 I'd say.   Enough to make 2 sets of 11" x 4" flaps.  Will use a fine hacksaw blade for most cuts, but also can cut it with the Dremel.  Bending is in the vise, between two steel bars, but 2x4s would work. 

I'm into my 3rd season now, with the 9" x 4".  They are OK, but I just like to tinker, and try new stuff, so am interested in trying slightly larger ones.    Let me know if you'd like a sketch with holes and bend lines, etc.  Pleased to help. 

I think a set made from ABS would be interesting, and not so difficult or expensive to make.  More stylish or aerodynamic.   Maybe somebody else will find it interesting, and make the effort.  A vent flap mold is a bit beyond me at this point in life, but we'll see. 

90% of installing the vent flaps is putting the blocks and T-nuts behind the side panels.  Holes on mine are just over 6" apart, and both are 2" in front of the vent opening.  Plenty of room behind the side panel at that location.  See photo. 

There's a photo of the blocks, slathered on with ABS pipe glue, and made from small chunks of ABS pipe, in the original post.  I had some 1/4 -20 T-nuts hanging around, so I used them for the vent flaps, as I was impatient at the time.  Would use M6 - 1 T-nuts if doing it today.   Might change them someday to M6 - 1. 

But as mentioned, I put my first ones on with 3M Extreme double stick rubber tape.  Till I was satisfied with their performance.  You could too.  And then do the blocks/nuts  when you have another reason to take the side panels off overnight. 

Dave



Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: oldsmoboat on July 15, 2018, 12:40:37 am
RE: Jim's wings

Help me understand this principle.  The wings look like they would block ambient air from hitting your feet.  Right now, that's how I cool them down by putting them in the air flow on my highway pegs that are mounted to my tip over bars.
How does blocking the air keep your feet and legs cooler?
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on July 16, 2018, 10:23:39 pm
Well,  your feet are out on the highway pegs to cool them, because they are hot when resting on the stock pegs?  Mine were.  Really hot.

The wings (vent flaps) are working to pull the radiator air on out of the vents, so it misses your feet and legs.  The vents don't work so well without them.  The important point is that the wing provides a low pressure path for the hot air, so that it passes outward more easily behind the wing, and ending up an inch or two outboard of your legs, at about the level of your calf.  Your feet and legs then stay cooler, when resting on the stock pegs.  Mine now has slightly warmer than ambient air blowing on the stock pegs, and they are pretty comfortable.

However, if you really need to ride with your feet on the highway pegs to stretch your legs, then the wings might not work for you.  Very hot air behind those wings.  Maybe Jim will comment more about the highway pegs.  I've no experience with them. 

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Jim on July 22, 2018, 09:39:29 pm
You do feel the heat around your ankle when using the highway pegs especially on the right foot.  However, it's not uncomfortable with ankle high boots and socks and the blast of cool air running up you pants leg is worth it.  Without the flaps, I remember the heat being higher towards my knee and thigh.  I've done a lot of highway miles in the heat and cold with the flaps installed and the factory scoops installed (plugged with foam in the winter).  They make the ride much more comfortable.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Charliedog on July 22, 2018, 11:52:15 pm
That looks like it would be a great idea.  One thing I did not see mentioned:  What is the angle of the flap relative to its mounting surface on the fairing?
In other words, how about a photo looking straight down the flap.  TIA
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on July 23, 2018, 11:40:58 am
Right side, from above. 

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on October 14, 2018, 03:26:24 pm
On an 87 degF day this past week, I dug out the stock side air scoops, and the temp rig for measuring the various temps, and got another set of data for Stock air scoops vs. vent flap setups.  The vent flap setup also has the rad opening closed.

The digital thermostat housing temp sensor in the thermostat housing drain,  is my best indicator of engine temp.  But also have K thermocouple on the oil temp, and another thermocouple mounted above the carbs.  See attached photo for positions of the side air temp sensors, that show the air temps on the inner side of my legs while riding. 

The Thermostat housing temp for the two setups was the same, interestingly, and there was minimal difference in the oil temp.  But the greater heat on my legs with the Stock setup was obvious, both in traffic and at speed.  The volume of hot air coming out from under the tank is striking.  And unpleasant.  With my glove off, reaching into the carbs, you can easily feel the heat and air flow.  There was also hot air from both side vents, trailing back along the fairing, and onto my shins and outer  legs.  The scoops kept my boots from cooking, but the heat on the legs above the boots is not comfortable.

With the vent flap and closed rad setup there is much less air flow from under the tank, and it seems not to come out from under  the tank/carbs much at all.  Most airflow around my legs was coming back to front behind the fairing.  And though above ambient temperature, the air on my legs was tolerable.  A non-issue, for riding in jeans on an 87 degF day.   Carbs felt cool, as usual, reaching in without gloves. 

Didn't get time to check with/without the rad reservoir.  It is 42 degF this morning in central Ohio, so it will have to wait till Spring.  I'm in winter mode now. 

Dave

Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: bajasam on October 14, 2018, 09:35:56 pm
Thx for all your hard work Dave.I made up a set from some .093 lexan from home depot and bonded them on with clear silicone . They work exactly as stated and I can comfortably ride in tennis shoes no socks and shorts except when sitting still in traffic.I was going to use some of that high tech thermo barrier on the bottom of my fuel tank but now that i've felt under there while riding I don't think there would really be any benefit to it.Thx Baja
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: DaveSz on October 17, 2018, 12:13:03 am
Thanks, Baja.  Reading your post I was impressed by your clever use of clear silicone.  Wish I'd thought of that!  Would have been so much easier, and more frugal, than the double-side sticky tape I used on my various trial flaps.  And easier to clean off after.

Just came in from a 200 mi ride.  Was 55 degF when I left, and 49 degF when I got back. For days like this, I've been trialing  a set of 11 x 2.5 inch winter flaps which give some wind and rain protection, but actually increase the heat on my legs vs. STOCK setup.   When I was trying different size vent flaps, I noted that the 3" wide trial did pull the hot air out of the vent, but failed to pull it outboard  far enough to miss me.   My 11 x 2.5" flaps pull a lot of heat out of the vent, and it all just slides back along the fairing, warming me up.   Maybe not a useful idea for the Southwest, but for winter riding in Ohio, not so bad!

Dave
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Gawernator on November 18, 2018, 07:20:11 am
MotoGP wings for the C10... lol
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: Lee on November 21, 2018, 10:10:37 am
Like the idea of 2.5 inch flaps for winter and 4 for summer. Makes me wonder about a choice of adjustments for variable deflection angles of attack. Naw.....easier to make seasonal flaps and switch them.
Title: Re: Vent flaps for engine heat
Post by: bajasam on September 02, 2019, 11:49:27 pm
Thx for locating this Bud. As an update, my flaps that I bent up out of .093 Lexan and bonded on with clear silicon caulk have held up well even dropped left side on asphalt roadway, when I picked bike up they sprung right back into shape an silicon glue held up no problem.