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Offline Big-Al

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Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« on: November 29, 2014, 11:17:23 pm »
After reading about others trouble with the install, I decided to take it a small step at a time. Removed right plastic to clear way to loosen 10mm motor mount hex bolt. Heated up bolt and smacked it with a hammer before trying to break loose with breaker bar and hex socket. Put lots of muscle into it but bolt didn't budge. Heated again and gave it more muscle... and proceeded to completely round out bolt hex points. Didn't worry yet as I had another trick up my sleeve. Cut a slot in bolt head at 1 and 7 o'clock positions so I could get a 2' crow-bar positioned in the slots pulled from below and front of the bike. Even though the slots were cut as narrow as possible, half of the bolt head broke off after a few tries.

Hmmm... what next? Only option seemed to be cutting off head and drilling out bolt. I already could see that the bolt was threaded on the engine (not frame). I could also feel with my finger that the bolt wasn't "closed" at the back.

Got out my dremel and cut-off wheels and proceeded to cut off the bolt head. I then drilled out (using a progression of small to large bits) the bolt. I made marks on the engine/frame to guide me in keeping the drill bit straight in both axis. I could see by looking at the hole from the other side of the bike that I was very close to being centered with the drilling. I was confident that I could save the threads by staying away from them with the drill bit. After I was very close to the threads, I stopped drilling and used very small prick-punches to remove remaining bolt material from the threads.

Note: Based on past experiences, I am far too paranoid to use an easy-out and risk breaking if off... as then you are truly screwed.

I then tapped the threads hoping for the best. It turns out there was very little thread left to clean. I suspect the threads were partially destroyed when I tried to muscle the bolt out... my theory being the Kawasaki thread locker had the bolt basically "welded" to the aluminum threads and my initial attempts to loosen ripped the threads from the aluminum block.

Drilled/tapped and now fixed with a heli-coil.

Anyhow... I still have the left side to do, so a question to all that installed the CC's. How did you get the motor mounts bolts out without ripping the threads apart or rounding out the hex points on the bolt?

I am tempted to just drill out and heli-coil the left side as it would probably be stronger and more trouble free that a steel bolt in aluminum... especially when the cages will need to come on/off frequently... thus creating a lot of stress.

Thoughts/comments/suggestions?

 
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline cuda

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2014, 11:25:20 pm »
Just use  out your EDM machine I LOVE my plasma cutter
 ;) 
Electrical discharge machining


LOTS OF LUCK AL :))
« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 11:29:16 pm by cuda »
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Offline Always Young

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2014, 11:34:39 pm »
Al, sorry to hear of the trouble that you encountered. I mounted the older style 'bathtub bars' on my bike and was lucky enough to get the bolts out in one piece (really tough mothers). As you said though, every time you take off the plastic (valve adjustment, etc) you need to take the top bolt out thus potentially ruining the threads in the engine. I modified my bars by cutting the tops off (look much better), but more importantly, I cut the tube off the plate that goes on the engine and welded onto the tube another tab with a threaded nut on back to bolt into. Now the plate stays on the engine permanently so I don't have to remove the engine mount bolt again. I only need to remove the two bolts on the tabs and the bars come off. You may want to do this before you finish the installation if you have the time in order to save a possible problem in the future. Why they don't come this way I can't figure.

Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2014, 12:57:28 am »
Just use  out your EDM machine I LOVE my plasma cutter
 ;)  Electrical discharge machining

LOTS OF LUCK AL :))


Fresh out of EDM machines and plasma cutters... can I borrow yours?
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
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1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
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Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2014, 01:16:14 am »
Al, sorry to hear of the trouble that you encountered. I mounted the older style 'bathtub bars' on my bike and was lucky enough to get the bolts out in one piece (really tough mothers). As you said though, every time you take off the plastic (valve adjustment, etc) you need to take the top bolt out thus potentially ruining the threads in the engine. I modified my bars by cutting the tops off (look much better), but more importantly, I cut the tube off the plate that goes on the engine and welded onto the tube another tab with a threaded nut on back to bolt into. Now the plate stays on the engine permanently so I don't have to remove the engine mount bolt again. I only need to remove the two bolts on the tabs and the bars come off. You may want to do this before you finish the installation if you have the time in order to save a possible problem in the future. Why they don't come this way I can't figure.

Either your way... or cut a notch out of the plastic as others have done. The notch cut has the advantage of not removing the cages at all when removing plastic. But... I hate to cut on the plastic like that. I think heli-coils all the way around will solve the problem and am leaning towards drilling the left side out and putting a heli-coil there also. I remember my drag racing days when we used heli-coils in Chevy small/big block aluminum blocks/heads because of reliability/durability and the fact that more torque could be applied to reduce blowing head gaskets.

 
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline rmills944

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2014, 01:57:54 am »
I didn't have any issues with the front bolts, just the long back mount. I rounded out the hex head but went to the other side and unscrewed the bolt completely. I could then take a maker and pound out the rest mount bolt from that side.
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Offline bearbait

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2014, 10:58:32 am »
I installed the cages on my recently purchased '09. I took my time over a weekend and it went well, no bolt problems. I did cut the plastic vents so I don't have to remove the cages for maintenance. While I was on the left side I replaced the air filter. When I was re-installing the plastic I needed a well nut. I bought two at the Kawasaki shop at $6.98 each. I did some shopping and ordered some from Fastenal at $1.00 each, but I had to get 25 of them. Now I have a lifetime supply. Oh, and a faring bolt kit from Pro Bolt helped.
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Offline cuda

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2014, 12:00:16 pm »
Would never seize have helped , I have three large Morbark chippers and each blade has four 3/4 inch grade 8 bolts, when someone puts a piece of wood with steel in it , pitch fork, axe ect, it all has happen ::) those bolts get sheered off like they were plastic , with never seize on the bolts  they are  easy to spin out with a chisel and hammer , with out lots of luck.
The directions should tell you to use it,   
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 12:03:48 pm by cuda »
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Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2014, 12:08:55 pm »
I didn't have any issues with the front bolts, just the long back mount. I rounded out the hex head but went to the other side and unscrewed the bolt completely. I could then take a maker and pound out the rest mount bolt from that side.

The back mount on my bike came out so easily...
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2014, 12:16:21 pm »
Would never seize have helped , I have three large Morbark chippers and each blade has four 3/4 inch grade 8 bolts, when someone puts a piece of wood with steel in it , pitch fork, axe ect, it all has happen ::) those bolts get sheered off like they were plastic , with never seize on the bolts  they are  easy to spin out with a chisel and hammer , with out lots of luck.
The directions should tell you to use it,   


I will probably not use any compound at all... just use correct torque values and check the bolts for tightness from time to time. Lots of stuff out there telling you not to use anti-seize... and the effect on torque values... here is one link.

http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline cuda

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2014, 02:07:16 pm »
You must enjoy what your going through  :beerchug:

I'm getting a 2015 and I will be using anti seize on my threads, there is always a article somewhere ...
Just lower the torque settings and heli-coils are the only way to go. 
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2014, 02:07:45 pm »
 I've used a propane torch to melt the factory loctite. I would try that before just heading into the drilling territory. BTDT, not fun. A trick I use frequently to lock bolts / prevent galling  / sieving is to wipe black rtv on the threads. the bolt won't come out til you want it to, and then it will be easy. HTH, steve
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Offline MikeJ

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2014, 04:26:34 pm »
I agree it can be a smart idea to use anti-seize on certain bolts, especially steel bolts into aluminum due to these metals affinity for each other. However...it's not smart to use anti-seize on more 'critical' fixings like brake calipers and engine mounts - if these come loose in service it could be game over. Better to use
Loctite Blue.



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Offline Fork

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2014, 06:59:50 pm »


What am I missing here? When I installed my Canyon Cages, the top bolts were too tight to get loosened with a power bar. Admittedly, I was very careful in view of others comments about rounding out the hex driven bolt. I got out my impact wrench and set it for the max giving it short bursts of impact and both bolts were out in less than a minute. I think the problem is applying cheater bar pressure to these frozen bolts rather than jarring them free with an impact wrench. Also, heating the bolt expands it at the same time as it melts the locktite so the result of heat may be that the two results counter act each other. In years of working on farm machinery we always heated the outside and cooled the inside of a frozen bolt or bearing.

Fork

Offline MikeJ

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2014, 07:42:39 pm »
Remember that aluminum has a much higher coefficient of expansion than steel. Therefore, If you heat the bolt and surrounding engine area together, the aluminum threaded hole will expand more than the steel bolt and hopefully loosen it.
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Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2014, 10:54:46 pm »
You must enjoy what your going through  :beerchug:

I'm getting a 2015 and I will be using anti seize on my threads, there is always a article somewhere ...
Just lower the torque settings and heli-coils are the only way to go.

Oh yeah... tons of fun so far. I do believe heli-coils in aluminum is better than just a "fix"... heading off future problems in high traffic areas like engine mount bolts holding canyon cages that will be on/off frequently.
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
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1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2014, 11:15:08 pm »
I've used a propane torch to melt the factory loctite. I would try that before just heading into the drilling territory. BTDT, not fun. A trick I use frequently to lock bolts / prevent galling  / sieving is to wipe black rtv on the threads. the bolt won't come out til you want it to, and then it will be easy. HTH, steve

Map gas didn't help me. Maybe it expanded the bolt and helped to create the problem in the first place? The drilling part was fairly quick and easy... cobalt bits... slow speed (don't heat them up) and flush with cutting oil. Where I wasted time was trying to salvage the threads by removing bolt fragments with small pin-prick punches (and other tools) in the hope that I could save them with a tap. Aluminum threads are far easier to damage than I thought. Next time drill and heli-coil... easy and fast to do.

I seem to find a fair amount of engineering information that recommends "clean" bolts torqued properly. I think I will go that route and make it a part of basic maintenance to check critical bolts torque. I also have a different situation in that I will now have steel/steel (with heli-coil), instead of steel/aluminum. I would think that would help with the frequent R&R the cages will be subjected to.
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2014, 11:26:31 pm »


What am I missing here? When I installed my Canyon Cages, the top bolts were too tight to get loosened with a power bar. Admittedly, I was very careful in view of others comments about rounding out the hex driven bolt. I got out my impact wrench and set it for the max giving it short bursts of impact and both bolts were out in less than a minute. I think the problem is applying cheater bar pressure to these frozen bolts rather than jarring them free with an impact wrench. Also, heating the bolt expands it at the same time as it melts the locktite so the result of heat may be that the two results counter act each other. In years of working on farm machinery we always heated the outside and cooled the inside of a frozen bolt or bearing.

Fork

You did nothing but use an impact tool? Can I assume that you used an air (not electric) impact wrench set to about 125-PSI? I wonder if my small craftsman compressor (1HP, 125-PSI, 3 GAL) is strong enough to drive an impact wrench?

Maybe I should go out and buy/rent/borrow an impact wrench and try that on the left side...
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline Fork

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2014, 11:42:55 pm »
Remember that aluminum has a much higher coefficient of expansion than steel. Therefore, If you heat the bolt and surrounding engine area together, the aluminum threaded hole will expand more than the steel bolt and hopefully loosen it.

Mike:

You are right about the coefficient of expansion and I thought about that after my post. The coefficient of expansion for aluminum is significantly higher than steel. I don't know if the heat being applied to the bolt reduces the transfer of heat to the aluminum to such an extent that it equalizes the different expansion rates. I guess what it boils down to is that I only know that when I couldn't get the bolts loose with the standard power bar, they came loose with the impact wrench.

Fork

Offline Fork

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2014, 11:51:45 pm »
 
[/quote]

You did nothing but use an impact tool? Can I assume that you used an air (not electric) impact wrench set to about 125-PSI? I wonder if my small craftsman compressor (1HP, 125-PSI, 3 GAL) is strong enough to drive an impact wrench?

Maybe I should go out and buy/rent/borrow an impact wrench and try that on the left side...
[/quote]

I used a standard pneumatic impact wrench set to the maximum of 250 ft lbs. Walmart sells them for less than $50. There is no reason your compressor wouldn't be enough to drive the wrench. Just use short bursts of the impact wrench(5 to 10 seconds) then repeat don't just sit there and whack away at the bolt if it isn't coming loose and make sure that you have a metric sized driver and not the close(but incorrect) fit of an SAE driver. No point in trying to macho man your way to removing the bolt, the result will just create a bigger problem. If it doesn't come loose to the impact wrench after reasonable attempts step back and try something else.

Fork

Offline Aussie

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2014, 11:55:12 am »
I also used an Sears air compressor powered impact wrench ... Mine is a 25 gallon model.  I set the wrench at maximum, and minimized the length of air line from the compressor ... And hit the bolt twice for about 10 seconds each.  Near the end of the second burst ... The bolt free-ed up ... And all was good.  :beerchug:

I also purchased a metric Allen key ... To allow maximum transfer of energy (i.e., match the bolt).

After reading threads about the breaker bar approach not "guaranteeing" extraction (and I own breaker bars) I was not willing to risk pulling the bolts without my impact wrench.

Additionally the impact wrench takes a lot less energy (person power) to operate.  ;D
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Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2014, 01:58:54 pm »
I also used an Sears air compressor powered impact wrench ... Mine is a 25 gallon model.  I set the wrench at maximum, and minimized the length of air line from the compressor ... And hit the bolt twice for about 10 seconds each.  Near the end of the second burst ... The bolt free-ed up ... And all was good.  :beerchug:

I also purchased a metric Allen key ... To allow maximum transfer of energy (i.e., match the bolt).

After reading threads about the breaker bar approach not "guaranteeing" extraction (and I own breaker bars) I was not willing to risk pulling the bolts without my impact wrench.

Additionally the impact wrench takes a lot less energy (person power) to operate.  ;D

I wish I had seen the thread about nixing the breaker bar approach... just didn't turn up in my canyon cage searches. The CC instructions specifically say to use a breaker bar to remove the 10mm bolts... I was simply following instructions... although that should be no excuse for me after having past experience with the Kawi thread locker on another frame bolt. Perhaps CC should modify the instructions? Don't feel too bad about having a heli-coil on the right side as it is a more robust thread/bolt union anyway. I am off to find a good deal on an impact wrench at Walmart, Harbor Freight, etc. Will next post on my left side motor mount result with impact wrench. 
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
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Offline mtnbandit

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2014, 05:22:05 pm »
  When I installed the Canyon Cages on my 2011 I used a breaker bar and when I attempted to reinstall the top engine bolts both sides, left and right, of the motor were stripped. This caused by the thread locker that Kawi uses. I had to drill both out and used Hili coil. That's the way to go. I've taken the bolts out to do the valve check and they came out easily and installed the same.
 Brent
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Offline Sailor_chic

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2014, 05:30:45 pm »
Are you sure that you want to buy a cheap one? The time will come when you will want to pull a tire off your car, and you will break out your cheap impact for the job. Soon huge disappointment will set in when your El cheapo won't turn the lugs tightened by a real impact gun. Been there,  done that!
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Offline CW

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2014, 08:47:54 pm »
  When I installed the Canyon Cages on my 2011 I used a breaker bar and when I attempted to reinstall the top engine bolts both sides, left and right, of the motor were stripped. This caused by the thread locker that Kawi uses. I had to drill both out and used Hili coil. That's the way to go. I've taken the bolts out to do the valve check and they came out easily and installed the same.
 Brent

Is there a reason for removing CCs for a valve check other than to remove plastic trim? I cut my fairings, and thus can remove trim easily without removing my CCs. But if there is another reason you did it, I want to be prepared because I need a valve check soon.

Thanks!
2010 Neptune blue C-14
2009 KLR
2103 DR-Z400S