Author Topic: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...  (Read 17221 times)

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Offline sailrider

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #100 on: March 06, 2015, 10:29:24 pm »
I'm not trying to start anything, Matt, as it's been years since I was in engineering school, but I'm trying to understand why an adapter would make a difference in torque reading on the tool scale.  As I recall, torque = force x distance measured from the center of the drive square to the handle pivot point.  Adding something like a 1//2" to 3/8" adapter would not change that distance.  If an extension were used that changed the effective length of the tool, then a compensation equation would have to be used.  There may be some tiny variation due to the adapter size, but it would be very negligible for our purpose.  Sorry to interrupt.  :great:

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Offline mattchewn

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #101 on: March 06, 2015, 10:53:23 pm »
sailrider,
The longer an extension is the more it has the potential to twist. Differing metals twist at differing rates, there goes accuracy.
Adapters add unwanted slop to the measuring. Typically the torque wrenches come with a note in the instruction to use as few adapters/extensions as is possible in order to preserve accuracy.
Matt
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Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #102 on: March 07, 2015, 12:24:30 am »
sailrider,
The longer an extension is the more it has the potential to twist. Differing metals twist at differing rates, there goes accuracy.
Adapters add unwanted slop to the measuring. Typically the torque wrenches come with a note in the instruction to use as few adapters/extensions as is possible in order to preserve accuracy.
Matt

I agree in principle, trying to recall what Strengths of Materials said. Take SnapOn extensions as an example. Their torsional strength (the point at which they twist) is so high that you'd have to be torqueing something much meaner than any bolt on a C14, I think.

Of course, if you use a really skinny extension, the risk is higher, even if still minimal.
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Offline BBroj

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #103 on: March 07, 2015, 12:45:34 am »
Cool discussion!   :great:
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Offline sailrider

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #104 on: March 07, 2015, 03:40:09 am »
JR, We're on the same page.  There's a shear stress element involved whenever the force is distributed along an axis such as an extension attached to the square point.  The tools and torques we use on motorbikes won't have enough force to fall outside of the calibration limits of the standard torque wrenches most of us have.  (Please don't ask for the math, as I'm not going to work that hard.)  I agree with Matt that it's best to not have any extensions or keep it to a minimum such as a size adapter.  I don't lose sleep when I use a 1/2" to 3/8" on my clicker.  No worries, mates.   :great:

Mark

Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #105 on: March 07, 2015, 01:05:23 pm »
Regardless of what socket extensions/adapters used, as long as a 90 deg angle is maintained between torque wrench and fastener, the delivered torque will be accurate. While slop/flex does happen when using extensions/adapters, once a steady state/equilibrium (slop taken up) is reached, accurate torque is delivered. Where else would it be going?

In the case where extensions do affect torque values (crows feet), it's because lever length of the torque wrench is being altered. However, this can be corrected by applying the formula: Ta = Tw x ((L + A) / L) where:

Ta = Torque applied to fastener with extension on wrench
Tw = Wrench reading on scale
L = Lever Length of wrench
A = Length of Adapter

Using socket extensions/adapters does not change lever length so therefore has no effect on torque values.

If you don't believe what torque wrench manuals say about socket extensions/adapters not affecting torque values, easy to prove it to yourself using socket extensions/adapters and an experimental bolt. Also easy to show that lever length changes (such as crows feet) do affect torque values using formula, crows feet and same bolt.
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Offline Sailor_chic

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #106 on: March 07, 2015, 01:16:09 pm »
This thread is getting good.  I love this knowledge of engineering that is bring shared. Thank you.
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Offline Ghost Rider 2

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #107 on: March 29, 2015, 10:12:57 am »
  Well I could not leave well enough alone, so I bough a set of front cages. I pulled front plastic and just could not use a torch. I went a little different direction and used a electric heat gun. Concentrated the heat on bolt head and it seemed to work good. Only problem I had was on the install. I can't say if it was old stuck lock tight or  if original bolt did not threw all the way threw the bracket and there may have been corrosion on back of thread. but when installing bolt on right side after thread when in 1/2" it stopped. I pulled bolt back out and there was aluminum thread on bolt. Made trip to town and got new bolt and tap. Now everything good. My only concern is what to use on bolts.  I am thinking blue lock tight, rtv silicone, or what I am leaning towards is using anti seeze and a lock washer. That sounds like the best route because someday these will have to come back off.   Any opinions on the lock washer idea?

Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #108 on: March 29, 2015, 11:42:30 pm »
  Well I could not leave well enough alone, so I bough a set of front cages. I pulled front plastic and just could not use a torch. I went a little different direction and used a electric heat gun. Concentrated the heat on bolt head and it seemed to work good. Only problem I had was on the install. I can't say if it was old stuck lock tight or  if original bolt did not threw all the way threw the bracket and there may have been corrosion on back of thread. but when installing bolt on right side after thread when in 1/2" it stopped. I pulled bolt back out and there was aluminum thread on bolt. Made trip to town and got new bolt and tap. Now everything good. My only concern is what to use on bolts.  I am thinking blue lock tight, rtv silicone, or what I am leaning towards is using anti seeze and a lock washer. That sounds like the best route because someday these will have to come back off.   Any opinions on the lock washer idea?

If you do any amount of research on the use of lock washers, you will find opposing views (even on engineering sites) as to effectiveness. After the initial trouble I had with the CC install, I opted to not use anything on the threads and simply rely on the proper torque to keep the bolts tight. I check the bolts occasionally and they keep tight.
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
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Offline Rambler

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #109 on: March 30, 2015, 03:28:09 pm »
I don't know how much I can add to this conversation but I just did an installation on a brand new 2013 and took pictures which I can post if requested of every step.  I had no problem with the motor mount bolts.  The Left bolt I used a 1/2" ratchet with the 10mm Hex (Sheffield) and no pop or creak just a uneasy (due to all of the talk of stripping the hex head) of the bolt giving way. The right bolt I heated to around 400 degrees F and removal was just the same.

I did go the route of chasing the threads with a bit and putting antisieze on the threads.  I would prefer periodic torquing  (I will keep a log and report back) to the dread of thinking the next time I have to remove these bolts and having them seize up.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 03:34:08 pm by Rambler »
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