Author Topic: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...  (Read 17469 times)

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Offline mattchewn

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2014, 12:53:22 am »
CW,
They will probably interfere with getting the valve cover off. I would guess at least one side would need to be removed.
Matt
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2014, 01:01:43 am »
Both sides need to be removed to do a valve adjustment. the CC's are mounted on the engine mount bolt, and the engine mount itself needs to be removed to access the cover bolt / valves kind of right behind it. You may be able to try to get around it by leaving the left motor mount on and accessing the bolt / valves from the front with the radiator removed, but really, the CC's are just in the way. steve
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Offline CW

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2014, 02:10:15 pm »
Both sides need to be removed to do a valve adjustment. the CC's are mounted on the engine mount bolt, and the engine mount itself needs to be removed to access the cover bolt / valves kind of right behind it. You may be able to try to get around it by leaving the left motor mount on and accessing the bolt / valves from the front with the radiator removed, but really, the CC's are just in the way. steve

Thanks for the info...good to know!
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2014, 05:40:14 pm »
When I did my Canyon Cages I had issues getting those bolts out as well. I heated the bold with a torch to free the loctite ...then froze the bolt with a can of air inverted (the liquid freezes stuff instantly). I have a large impact driver but did not use it.
Instead I used the strong arm but smacked the back of the socket  (with it on the bolt)  with a heavy maul while putting pressure on the strong arm and they came out that way.
When I do wheel bearings on cars  or trailers depending on the inside or outside race I will freeze the spindle and heat the race or vice versa.  Cans of air inverted to freeze stuff comes in handy.
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Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2014, 10:46:19 am »
As a follow-up...

As it turns out, my wimpy air compressor didn't have enough SCFM (2.4 at 90 PSI instead of the required 7.0 SCFM) needed to properly drive an impact wrench. See below link for air tool SCFM requirements. I didn't want to spend the ~ $200 needed for a proper compressor and another ~ $200 for a proper impact wrench... all for a one time (or limited) use situation. If I thought I would have lots of future use for a bigger compressor and quality impact wrench... I would buy... but for occasional use... better to borrow or rent.

http://www.powermate.com/air_compressors/buying_guide.php

I drove to the local Kawasaki dealer to talk to the mechanics. Several of them took the time to explain the technique that they had been taught (and have used) for years on dealing with Kawasaki thread locker. First... I was told never to use an impact wrench as that would damage/weaken the threads... either causing immediate problems (stripping upon re-tightening), or coming back to haunt you in the future (especially in on/off areas like CC). They seemed to think that the bond between bolt/thread can only be properly loosened by heat (melting the thread locker) and a "feel" when loosening. I was told never to use a breaker bar as that removes the ability to "feel" if the bolt is loosening or if you are starting to round off the hex points. I was told to use a small ratchet and put my other hand closer (on the extension) to the bolt/socket area to better feel what was going on while trying to loosen. So... their instructions was to first get the bike hot by running... followed by unloosening with a ratchet while feeling for the end point (start of rounding). If unsuccessful... use more heat (mapp gas)... and try again. But never use excessive force to get near the point of rounding the hex points.

I tried what they said. I buttoned up the bike and rode for awhile to get it hot (minus left side plastic). I used a small ratchet and stopped when it felt like it was close to rounding. I then applied more heat and voila... it came loose. I am not sure if I agree with all I was told by them... but in this case, their instructions worked.

Anyhow... CC installed. Now on to my AST risers and Rivco pegs install. Thanks for the comments and assistance.
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
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Offline C. Moore

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2014, 10:55:03 am »
I guess I got lucky. The front bolts came out for me with a breaker bar with no problem at all. The right side was a little stiffer than the left. The threads were unmolested. I'm glad I installed  the cages because I have already put them to good use. They do work as advertised.  :-[
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Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2014, 12:35:06 am »
I guess I got lucky. The front bolts came out for me with a breaker bar with no problem at all. The right side was a little stiffer than the left. The threads were unmolested. I'm glad I installed  the cages because I have already put them to good use. They do work as advertised.  :-[

You must be in favor with the god "Kawa"...
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Offline Colt45

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2015, 12:15:52 am »
Wow!  Mine came out with steady even pressure with a long breaker bar.  Easy-Peasy.  Lots of goop on the threads. 
John  '09 Concours 14 TCBM  Full Area P, Traxxion & Penske 8987, MR Flash, Front Canyon Cages
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Offline BBroj

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2015, 01:09:48 pm »
There is a red thread locker (Loc-Tite) which does state heat will be necessary to remove the fastener once the stuff has cured. This thread has me worried because CC's are on my short list of farkles/upgrades I want to do to my "new" bike. I am a pretty accomplished DIY'er and have the necessary tools, but the possibility of stripping or needing to drill aluminum threads in my aluminum engine, well, that makes me sweat a bit. I've never had to deal with heli coils, but a steel to steel junction does sound preferable. Is anyone using thread locker (maybe the blue stuff) once they do get the bolts out? It's supposed to make disassembly easier by protecting the threads, as long as you're not using the space shuttle strength stuff!
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Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2015, 03:22:38 pm »
There is a red thread locker (Loc-Tite) which does state heat will be necessary to remove the fastener once the stuff has cured. This thread has me worried because CC's are on my short list of farkles/upgrades I want to do to my "new" bike. I am a pretty accomplished DIY'er and have the necessary tools, but the possibility of stripping or needing to drill aluminum threads in my aluminum engine, well, that makes me sweat a bit. I've never had to deal with heli coils, but a steel to steel junction does sound preferable. Is anyone using thread locker (maybe the blue stuff) once they do get the bolts out? It's supposed to make disassembly easier by protecting the threads, as long as you're not using the space shuttle strength stuff!

As you can see from this thread, many different experiences. Reflecting back on my experience (as documented in this thread), this is what I would advise. Use heat (mapp gas) first and foremost. Do not use a breaker bar as that will remove your "feel" as to what is happening with the bolt... hex points stripping, etc. If you apply heat properly (melting the locker) you will only need a ratchet to loosen. By putting fingers around the socket/bolt area you can better feel what is happening as you try to loosen. Use a hex socket that has no back/forth play when inserted in the bolt (Craftsman hex sockets will have play I have heard). When trying to loosen, stop when you feel the hex points are near the strip point (feel), apply more heat and try again. I have a heli-coil in the right side after trying the breaker bar approach. I used the above method and had little trouble with the left side.

Look at it this way... stripping it out and inserting heli-coils is not such a bad thing... after all, it is not a blind hole. In fact, heli-coils are often used in racing engines to strengthen the steel bolt/aluminum block connection.

What compound to use on the bolts is another confusing area. Most research I have done seems to say use anti-seize on dissimilar metals (as in this case). Currently, I don't use anything as I am curious to see if they maintain the torque... I check them occasionally. I will probably use anti-seize the next time I have them off.
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
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1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
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Offline BBroj

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2015, 05:31:08 pm »
If and when I spring for the CC's, I will also have to pick up some MAPP gas, as I have only propane or oxy-acetylene. Propane may not be enough, oxy-acetylene can quickly melt aluminum, which gives no traditional warning.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2015, 08:58:56 pm »
Mapp gas can also melt aluminum.  I suspect propane would get it plenty hot enough. Most thread lock agents will re-liquify at around 400 degrees or less.
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Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2015, 09:50:22 pm »
Mapp gas can also melt aluminum.  I suspect propane would get it plenty hot enough. Most thread lock agents will re-liquify at around 400 degrees or less.

Flame temperature of MAPP (w/air) is 3,670 F. Propane (w/air) is 3,623 F;  a slight difference. MAPP will heat (a bit) faster and hotter than propane, but not enough to cause much concern. As the melting point of aluminum is 1,221 F, either propane or MAPP could produce melting if exposed long enough. The trick is to stay on the steel bolt ***just*** long enough to allow the expansion of the aluminum surrounding the bolt and no more. As aluminum expands faster than steel, the period of time to stay on the bolt shouldn't be nearly long enough to damage the aluminum... as we are only talking about melting thread locker, having a melting point of ~500 F.

Propane would work, but I prefer MAPP as it has faster heat transfer than propane... thus less time on target.

Now... if you are talking about using MAPP w/oxygen... totally different story. 
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
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1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
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Offline BBroj

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2015, 09:59:02 pm »
Mapp gas can also melt aluminum.  I suspect propane would get it plenty hot enough. Most thread lock agents will re-liquify at around 400 degrees or less.

Good to know, thanks! I'll stick with propane if/when the job happens. Any word or theories as to why Kawasaki is using such a high strength thread locker in this application? I understand it is holding the engine (partly, at least) in the frame, but a lesser locking agent would work without the risk to the threads. That high strength, heat-necessary-to-release-it stuff (sleeve locker) is usually reserved for internal high stress locations.
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Offline rmills944

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2015, 10:10:40 pm »
Not sure if they use high-strength thread locker. I used a 3ft prybar, but it was really easy to get the bolts out for me on my 08. The thread locker looked like blue locktite to me... which is what i put back on the bolts.
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Offline JTX

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2015, 01:54:02 am »
I'm glad I Read this thread. I'm picking up a 2015 C14 this year and theres no way in hell I'm risking damaging engine bolts to install a fairing protector. :(  I really thought it was going to be a simple bolt-on addition, but apparently not !  YIKES !



I will install the REAR bag protectors, but not the front set.  It's just not worth stripped threads.  My insurance deductible isin't that bad.

Offline Udoggie

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2015, 02:06:41 am »
For what it's worth, installing them on my 2012 was a breeze.

They've already paid for themselves when I was bumped from behind and fell over.

I've been really happy with them.

  -Jeff

Offline Highett

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2015, 08:06:18 am »
I used a breaker bar on mne wth no heat, it took some effort but they came out.
The threads needed to be cleaned as some of the red thread locker was still in there after that the new bolts went in fine.
I fitted mine with the plastic off then did the cuts so i did not have to remove / refit in the future.

With regards to the valve shim check, I had the deaer do mne, I exlained about the cuts in the fairing how to remove and refit, feed back was that the cages were not in the way.

I too have slipped and fell on each side, both times loaded and the plastic never touched the ground, the CC's are worth every cent and the effort to fit and  the bonus is there is somewhere to attach your hi-way pegs as well

Offline JTX

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2015, 12:02:04 pm »
Yeah but what about the expense of retapping a motor mount ?

Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2015, 12:14:08 pm »
According to several Kawasaki mechanics I discussed this with, the proper procedure is to apply heat when loosening fasteners with red thread locker. Thread-locker manufacturers (Loc-tite, Permatex) say the same thing in their instructions. Using brute force (while apparently successful) could weaken the aluminum threads as the bond is strong and the aluminum threads are weak. Running a tap through the threads (while cleaning the threads) will not show weakened threads unless they have obvious physical damage. Being as these bolts are in a location that receives a fair amount of stress due to re-torquing (R/R), vibration, etc., weakened threads could be a problem in the future. On the bright side, it would be fairly easy to drill/tap/heli-coil (if needed) in the future. 

2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
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Offline JTX

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2015, 12:56:45 pm »
According to several Kawasaki mechanics I discussed this with, the proper procedure is to apply heat when loosening fasteners with red thread locker. Thread-locker manufacturers (Loc-tite, Permatex) say the same thing in their instructions. Using brute force (while apparently successful) could weaken the aluminum threads as the bond is strong and the aluminum threads are weak. Running a tap through the threads (while cleaning the threads) will not show weakened threads unless they have obvious physical damage. Being as these bolts are in a location that receives a fair amount of stress due to re-torquing (R/R), vibration, etc., weakened threads could be a problem in the future. On the bright side, it would be fairly easy to drill/tap/heli-coil (if needed) in the future.

I'm pretty much a DIY person, not afraid of yanking bolts and such. But I'm wondering if it would be worth the expense to have the dealer's mechanics install it for me. 

And, yes, if KAW is using red 2xx series loctite, heat is needed 100% before you start wrenching on these bolts !

The directions on the bottles say its PERMANENT ( semi ).  Heat is required into the 400'F to break the bond.

My problem with using heat are all the plastic bits nearby. It's not like a suspension bolt on a car where you can get things stupid hot and it wont melt something next door !
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 01:01:41 pm by JTX »

Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2015, 01:54:23 pm »
According to several Kawasaki mechanics I discussed this with, the proper procedure is to apply heat when loosening fasteners with red thread locker. Thread-locker manufacturers (Loc-tite, Permatex) say the same thing in their instructions. Using brute force (while apparently successful) could weaken the aluminum threads as the bond is strong and the aluminum threads are weak. Running a tap through the threads (while cleaning the threads) will not show weakened threads unless they have obvious physical damage. Being as these bolts are in a location that receives a fair amount of stress due to re-torquing (R/R), vibration, etc., weakened threads could be a problem in the future. On the bright side, it would be fairly easy to drill/tap/heli-coil (if needed) in the future.

I'm pretty much a DIY person, not afraid of yanking bolts and such. But I'm wondering if it would be worth the expense to have the dealer's mechanics install it for me. 

And, yes, if KAW is using red 2xx series loctite, heat is needed 100% before you start wrenching on these bolts !

The directions on the bottles say its PERMANENT ( semi ).  Heat is required into the 400'F to break the bond.

My problem with using heat are all the plastic bits nearby. It's not like a suspension bolt on a car where you can get things stupid hot and it wont melt something next door !

I followed CC instructions (breaker bar) for the right side and had major problems resulting in my drilling out the bolt and putting in a heli-coil. I followed my own instructions (using heat) on the left side and it was a breeze. The job itself is an easy one except for loosening the bolts. If you use heat, you should have no problems.

You don't need a dealer to do the job... they might mess it up worse than you... then try to cover it up... and charge you a lot in the process. Just my aversion to dealers talking here...

What plastic parts are you referring to? It's pretty easy to get heat on the bolt without melting too much paint in surrounding areas.
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline JTX

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2015, 09:02:29 pm »
According to several Kawasaki mechanics I discussed this with, the proper procedure is to apply heat when loosening fasteners with red thread locker. Thread-locker manufacturers (Loc-tite, Permatex) say the same thing in their instructions. Using brute force (while apparently successful) could weaken the aluminum threads as the bond is strong and the aluminum threads are weak. Running a tap through the threads (while cleaning the threads) will not show weakened threads unless they have obvious physical damage. Being as these bolts are in a location that receives a fair amount of stress due to re-torquing (R/R), vibration, etc., weakened threads could be a problem in the future. On the bright side, it would be fairly easy to drill/tap/heli-coil (if needed) in the future.

I'm pretty much a DIY person, not afraid of yanking bolts and such. But I'm wondering if it would be worth the expense to have the dealer's mechanics install it for me. 

And, yes, if KAW is using red 2xx series loctite, heat is needed 100% before you start wrenching on these bolts !

The directions on the bottles say its PERMANENT ( semi ).  Heat is required into the 400'F to break the bond.

My problem with using heat are all the plastic bits nearby. It's not like a suspension bolt on a car where you can get things stupid hot and it wont melt something next door !

I followed CC instructions (breaker bar) for the right side and had major problems resulting in my drilling out the bolt and putting in a heli-coil. I followed my own instructions (using heat) on the left side and it was a breeze. The job itself is an easy one except for loosening the bolts. If you use heat, you should have no problems.

You don't need a dealer to do the job... they might mess it up worse than you... then try to cover it up... and charge you a lot in the process. Just my aversion to dealers talking here...

What plastic parts are you referring to? It's pretty easy to get heat on the bolt without melting too much paint in surrounding areas.


This is what I want to avoid, 100%  ;D

Offline Big-Al

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2015, 09:59:22 pm »
According to several Kawasaki mechanics I discussed this with, the proper procedure is to apply heat when loosening fasteners with red thread locker. Thread-locker manufacturers (Loc-tite, Permatex) say the same thing in their instructions. Using brute force (while apparently successful) could weaken the aluminum threads as the bond is strong and the aluminum threads are weak. Running a tap through the threads (while cleaning the threads) will not show weakened threads unless they have obvious physical damage. Being as these bolts are in a location that receives a fair amount of stress due to re-torquing (R/R), vibration, etc., weakened threads could be a problem in the future. On the bright side, it would be fairly easy to drill/tap/heli-coil (if needed) in the future.

I'm pretty much a DIY person, not afraid of yanking bolts and such. But I'm wondering if it would be worth the expense to have the dealer's mechanics install it for me. 

And, yes, if KAW is using red 2xx series loctite, heat is needed 100% before you start wrenching on these bolts !

The directions on the bottles say its PERMANENT ( semi ).  Heat is required into the 400'F to break the bond.

My problem with using heat are all the plastic bits nearby. It's not like a suspension bolt on a car where you can get things stupid hot and it wont melt something next door !

I followed CC instructions (breaker bar) for the right side and had major problems resulting in my drilling out the bolt and putting in a heli-coil. I followed my own instructions (using heat) on the left side and it was a breeze. The job itself is an easy one except for loosening the bolts. If you use heat, you should have no problems.

You don't need a dealer to do the job... they might mess it up worse than you... then try to cover it up... and charge you a lot in the process. Just my aversion to dealers talking here...

What plastic parts are you referring to? It's pretty easy to get heat on the bolt without melting too much paint in surrounding areas.


This is what I want to avoid, 100%  ;D

In all likely hood, if you bring it to a dealer to install the Canyon Cages (as you previously mentioned), they will use a torch (and melt some paint) to get the motor mount bolts out, as it is SOP for them. If it bothers you that much, design a heat sync... or buy a can of black spray paint for touch-up. You won't lose that much paint if you are careful. In my case, I didn't lose any paint... just a little bit discolored around the bolt. Can't see that area anyhow as the fairing and CC's will cover it up.
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline JTX

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Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2015, 10:05:45 pm »
According to several Kawasaki mechanics I discussed this with, the proper procedure is to apply heat when loosening fasteners with red thread locker. Thread-locker manufacturers (Loc-tite, Permatex) say the same thing in their instructions. Using brute force (while apparently successful) could weaken the aluminum threads as the bond is strong and the aluminum threads are weak. Running a tap through the threads (while cleaning the threads) will not show weakened threads unless they have obvious physical damage. Being as these bolts are in a location that receives a fair amount of stress due to re-torquing (R/R), vibration, etc., weakened threads could be a problem in the future. On the bright side, it would be fairly easy to drill/tap/heli-coil (if needed) in the future.

I'm pretty much a DIY person, not afraid of yanking bolts and such. But I'm wondering if it would be worth the expense to have the dealer's mechanics install it for me. 

And, yes, if KAW is using red 2xx series loctite, heat is needed 100% before you start wrenching on these bolts !

The directions on the bottles say its PERMANENT ( semi ).  Heat is required into the 400'F to break the bond.

My problem with using heat are all the plastic bits nearby. It's not like a suspension bolt on a car where you can get things stupid hot and it wont melt something next door !

I followed CC instructions (breaker bar) for the right side and had major problems resulting in my drilling out the bolt and putting in a heli-coil. I followed my own instructions (using heat) on the left side and it was a breeze. The job itself is an easy one except for loosening the bolts. If you use heat, you should have no problems.

You don't need a dealer to do the job... they might mess it up worse than you... then try to cover it up... and charge you a lot in the process. Just my aversion to dealers talking here...

What plastic parts are you referring to? It's pretty easy to get heat on the bolt without melting too much paint in surrounding areas.


This is what I want to avoid, 100%  ;D

In all likely hood, if you bring it to a dealer to install the Canyon Cages (as you previously mentioned), they will use a torch (and melt some paint) to get the motor mount bolts out, as it is SOP for them. If it bothers you that much, design a heat sync... or buy a can of black spray paint for touch-up. You won't lose that much paint if you are careful. In my case, I didn't lose any paint... just a little bit discolored around the bolt. Can't see that area anyhow as the fairing and CC's will cover it up.


Hmmm OK I'll definitely keep it in mind then.

I dont have it yet .  So after I take a look at it and see what I'm working with I might have a better idea of what I can and can't do.