Author Topic: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...  (Read 17461 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jlewis50

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 116
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 11547
  • Membership Level: Expired - Expired Term
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2015, 01:07:12 am »
I used a new, proper size metric hex socket with an extension and a breaker bar to remove the bolt. It made a snapping sound and came right out. I don't think you will strip the threads or ever break the bolt in removal. The bolt will not break. All problems I've seen came from not using a good Allen head socket. Need to use a stubby one.
I did screw up and cross thread the second smaller 8 mm bolt. I just removed the mount, fixed the mistake and remounted it.
Always start bolts with your fingers only. Never with a socket.

Offline JTX

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
  • TEXAS 2015 ZG14
    • 2015
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2015, 12:46:07 am »
I used a new, proper size metric hex socket with an extension and a breaker bar to remove the bolt. It made a snapping sound and came right out. I don't think you will strip the threads or ever break the bolt in removal. The bolt will not break. All problems I've seen came from not using a good Allen head socket. Need to use a stubby one.
I did screw up and cross thread the second smaller 8 mm bolt. I just removed the mount, fixed the mistake and remounted it.
Always start bolts with your fingers only. Never with a socket.


One of the local dealers for MC E is also a kaw dealer. They are in a city north of me 10-12 miles.  They said 1.5 -2 hours of labor, so if its  100$ an hour, or so, its probably worth it for me to toss money at it instead of messing with it myself.

Will see what they offer me on prices on the CCages.

She did tell me they were going to contact the MFG and make sure the 2015 model I have is the same as the most recent version of the CCages before she got back to me with a price.  Wouldn't be until Tues at the earliest. Apparently MC-E has weird hours.

I said, I dont mind paying for the service fee, but that I want it installed without breaking things  :great:
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 12:52:07 am by JTX »

Offline Zarticus

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1665
  • Fanboy, Sludge wearer, Proud Rotella user !
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 10785
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2015, 01:15:03 am »
Don't over think it, Use a good fitting hex socket & a soldering iron. Hold the soldering iron on the bolt for a few minutes to loosen the lock tight. You have pin point accuracy with a soldering iron so no chance of melting anything like if you use a torch. Save the money & do it yourself. Installed mine in 15 minutes  :beerchug:
2012 Kawasaki Concours, Arabian Red
1986 Honda V65 Magna, Black
1984 Honda V65 Magna, Black
1983 Honda V45 Sabre, Red

Offline Sailor_chic

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1566
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 11610
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2015, 02:11:58 am »
From what I understand is that chasing the threads on the engine before re-installing the mount bolt is equally important. Make sure that that aluminium is clean before trying to run a bolt into it.
Nicole     Port St Lucie, FL.
2013 C14 Black  
2006 Vmax
IBA # 60267

Offline Cboothe

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 159
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2015, 03:51:24 am »
Does anybody want a set of canyon cages I bought a set but never installed them 

Offline Anthony

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 165
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2015, 05:19:27 am »
Does anybody want a set of canyon cages I bought a set but never installed them

Tried sending a PM but my computer is hating me. How much and what year?

Offline JTX

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
  • TEXAS 2015 ZG14
    • 2015
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2015, 10:10:37 am »

That is a good idea with the iron.

 I have the tools.  I'm going to see what the quote is. If their rates are cheap for this job I may just let them do it for me.




Don't over think it, Use a good fitting hex socket & a soldering iron. Hold the soldering iron on the bolt for a few minutes to loosen the lock tight. You have pin point accuracy with a soldering iron so no chance of melting anything like if you use a torch. Save the money & do it yourself. Installed mine in 15 minutes  :beerchug:

Offline CW

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1037
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2015, 02:56:42 pm »

That is a good idea with the iron.

 I have the tools.  I'm going to see what the quote is. If their rates are cheap for this job I may just let them do it for me.




Don't over think it, Use a good fitting hex socket & a soldering iron. Hold the soldering iron on the bolt for a few minutes to loosen the lock tight. You have pin point accuracy with a soldering iron so no chance of melting anything like if you use a torch. Save the money & do it yourself. Installed mine in 15 minutes  :beerchug:

Might want to just try it yourself before going to any extremes; you might get lucky, and the bolts come right out. Mine did. Guess I got lucky. I installed mine before I read any of the horror stories. Did front and back, by myself, in 30 minutes or so, using hex sockets and cheater bar. No problems t all. Be sure to have bike on center stand, and not side stand. Helps keep engine oriented.
2010 Neptune blue C-14
2009 KLR
2103 DR-Z400S

Offline JTX

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
  • TEXAS 2015 ZG14
    • 2015
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2015, 09:38:15 pm »
I tend to agree with you here, but I dont mind paying for a good install.  Supports the local economy right?

Now if they quote me really crazy prices, I may just wing it.  I think I know enough of what NOT TO DO .




That is a good idea with the iron.

 I have the tools.  I'm going to see what the quote is. If their rates are cheap for this job I may just let them do it for me.




Don't over think it, Use a good fitting hex socket & a soldering iron. Hold the soldering iron on the bolt for a few minutes to loosen the lock tight. You have pin point accuracy with a soldering iron so no chance of melting anything like if you use a torch. Save the money & do it yourself. Installed mine in 15 minutes  :beerchug:

Might want to just try it yourself before going to any extremes; you might get lucky, and the bolts come right out. Mine did. Guess I got lucky. I installed mine before I read any of the horror stories. Did front and back, by myself, in 30 minutes or so, using hex sockets and cheater bar. No problems t all. Be sure to have bike on center stand, and not side stand. Helps keep engine oriented.

Offline JTX

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
  • TEXAS 2015 ZG14
    • 2015
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2015, 11:05:15 pm »
Well, I got a $275 quote from a dealer to do the installation.  Thats wayyy over budget for me. They wanted over 600$ for the front rear bars.

NO.

SO I found a seller on ebay ( a dealer actually )  selling the front AND rear cages for $489 shipped.  Not bad, about what I figured.

I should get the hardware in a week or less.  And I will be doing it myself of course.

Those engine bolts really make me nervous.  But I have the proper hex socket and a good long breaker bar.  I'm thinking about using the " drive it until its HOT " method  ( the engine ) and start out with a normal operating temp on the engine.  Then working it up to the 300-400f range with a soldering iron on the bolt head.

I'm thinking that should loosen up the loc tite enough.  Then re-install with a dab of red loctite if the threads come out clean enough.

This one is a nail biter for me, since its new and does not even have 15 miles on the ODO.

The bag guards shouldn't take me 30 minutes.

Offline seagiant1

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2947
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 11323
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2015, 12:36:31 am »
Hi,
       I think if you get the right tools and one of those small "crack pipe" torches and hit the bolt head with some heat it should pop for ya!

 Correct preparation makes all the difference sometimes!!! ;D

http://www.zoro.com/i/G2815836/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=Cj0KEQiAjZGnBRCOuJOUo9Xd0sUBEiQAPbicN65d11s_VIvmMDkGzcIRek5daOUMzzP11bspU4hv6LEaAqTW8P8HAQ
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” -Samuel Adams

"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it"
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

Offline JTX

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
  • TEXAS 2015 ZG14
    • 2015
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2015, 12:38:24 am »
I read on another forum as an idea, heat up an old screwdriver and use that to press against the bolt head a few times.

But the OP in this thread used heat and still busted it......



Hi,
       I think if you get the right tools and one of those small "crack pipe" torches and hit the bolt head with some heat it should pop for ya!

 Correct preparation makes all the difference sometime!!! ;D

http://www.zoro.com/i/G2815836/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=Cj0KEQiAjZGnBRCOuJOUo9Xd0sUBEiQAPbicN65d11s_VIvmMDkGzcIRek5daOUMzzP11bspU4hv6LEaAqTW8P8HAQ

Offline seagiant1

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2947
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 11323
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2015, 12:46:11 am »
I read on another forum as an idea, heat up an old screwdriver and use that to press against the bolt head a few times.

But the OP in this thread used heat and still busted it......



Hi,
       I think if you get the right tools and one of those small "crack pipe" torches and hit the bolt head with some heat it should pop for ya!

 Correct preparation makes all the difference sometime!!! ;D

http://www.zoro.com/i/G2815836/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=Cj0KEQiAjZGnBRCOuJOUo9Xd0sUBEiQAPbicN65d11s_VIvmMDkGzcIRek5daOUMzzP11bspU4hv6LEaAqTW8P8HAQ



Hi,
       I can't help but wonder if a soldering iron or a heated screwdriver would be enough heat?

 That red loctite is pretty amazing and takes the place of soldering in a lot of applications today!

  Just sayin,it's tough! ;D
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” -Samuel Adams

"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it"
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

Offline JTX

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
  • TEXAS 2015 ZG14
    • 2015
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2015, 12:50:00 am »


Well, from what I'm reading, its only torqued to 45 Foot Pounds.  Thats nothing.  Thats half of what a typical lugnut is on a car.

So the way I'm reading the problems is not enough heat to break the bond on the red loctite.  You need 400'F.

Im not sure how long the OP heated but it seems to me there was not enough heat applied.

I have a laser temp gauge which will get used......


I read on another forum as an idea, heat up an old screwdriver and use that to press against the bolt head a few times.

But the OP in this thread used heat and still busted it......



Hi,
       I think if you get the right tools and one of those small "crack pipe" torches and hit the bolt head with some heat it should pop for ya!

 Correct preparation makes all the difference sometime!!! ;D

http://www.zoro.com/i/G2815836/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=Cj0KEQiAjZGnBRCOuJOUo9Xd0sUBEiQAPbicN65d11s_VIvmMDkGzcIRek5daOUMzzP11bspU4hv6LEaAqTW8P8HAQ



Hi,
       I can't help but wonder if a soldering iron or a heated screwdriver would be enough heat?

 That red loctite is pretty amazing and takes the place of soldering in a lot of applications today!

  Just sayin,it's tough! ;D

Offline JTX

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
  • TEXAS 2015 ZG14
    • 2015
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2015, 01:12:07 am »

Have you SEEN The broken bolt stories?????    :nananana:


I think not using heat is unwise since we know its got loctite on it.

I just tested my iron, and it makes it to 430F





Well, from what I'm reading, its only torqued to 45 Foot Pounds.  Thats nothing.  Thats half of what a typical lugnut is on a car.

So the way I'm reading the problems is not enough heat to break the bond on the red loctite.  You need 400'F.

Im not sure how long the OP heated but it seems to me there was not enough heat applied.

I have a laser temp gauge which will get used......


I read on another forum as an idea, heat up an old screwdriver and use that to press against the bolt head a few times.

But the OP in this thread used heat and still busted it......



Hi,
       I think if you get the right tools and one of those small "crack pipe" torches and hit the bolt head with some heat it should pop for ya!

 Correct preparation makes all the difference sometime!!! ;D

http://www.zoro.com/i/G2815836/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=Cj0KEQiAjZGnBRCOuJOUo9Xd0sUBEiQAPbicN65d11s_VIvmMDkGzcIRek5daOUMzzP11bspU4hv6LEaAqTW8P8HAQ



Hi,
       I can't help but wonder if a soldering iron or a heated screwdriver would be enough heat?

 That red loctite is pretty amazing and takes the place of soldering in a lot of applications today!

  Just sayin,it's tough! ;D



How about just eating your Wheaties, and using a breaker bar. Thats the route that I would go, Easy peasy!

Offline seagiant1

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2947
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 11323
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2015, 01:25:13 am »
Hi,
      Well...IF you are dealing with RED loctite and NOT using heat, you are playing a dangerous game IMO!!! :-[
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” -Samuel Adams

"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it"
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

Offline JTX

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
  • TEXAS 2015 ZG14
    • 2015
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2015, 01:28:16 am »

I agree.  But isint that what we've determined KAW is using on these bolts, or Did I miss something........


http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_RED_tds.pdf


Red

Service Temperature: -65°F (-54°C) to 300°F (149°C)
Cured form: Non-flammable, hard solid
Clean-Up: Uncured: Wipe with damp cloth.
Cured: Remove with a combination of soaking in methylene chloride and
mechanical abrasion such as a wire brush.
For disassembly: Heat parts up to 482°F (250°C) and separate parts while hot.










Hi,
      Well...IF you are dealing with RED loctite and NOT using heat, you are playing a dangerous game IMO!!! :-[

Offline Big-Al

  • Scooter
  • ***
  • Posts: 261
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2015, 02:31:45 pm »
I would question the use of a soldering iron to heat the bolt/block thread area containing the compound. The Loctite specification sheet calls for a temperature of 500F. While the tip temperature of a (powerful) soldering iron can exceed 500F, I question its ability to transfer (via conductance) enough heat to liquify the compound. Trying to heat such a large amount of metal with such a small heating device would result in heat being "wicked" off by the surrounding metal.

You need to make your first shot at loosening the bolt your best one by applying the heat properly, as you may not get a second chance.
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline Hiddenmickey

  • Bicycle
  • *
  • Posts: 73
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: 12234
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2015, 03:01:57 pm »
My canyon cages went on without a problem at all.  I put them on when the bike had about 400 miles on it.  The only thing I did differently from the instruction was support the motor.

Offline JTX

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
  • TEXAS 2015 ZG14
    • 2015
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2015, 04:35:18 pm »

So what did you heat with and why did the bolts break still ?


I would question the use of a soldering iron to heat the bolt/block thread area containing the compound. The Loctite specification sheet calls for a temperature of 500F. While the tip temperature of a (powerful) soldering iron can exceed 500F, I question its ability to transfer (via conductance) enough heat to liquify the compound. Trying to heat such a large amount of metal with such a small heating device would result in heat being "wicked" off by the surrounding metal.

You need to make your first shot at loosening the bolt your best one by applying the heat properly, as you may not get a second chance.

Offline SWOJO95

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 186
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 190
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2015, 05:02:22 pm »

I agree.  But isint that what we've determined KAW is using on these bolts, or Did I miss something........


http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_RED_tds.pdf


Red

Service Temperature: -65°F (-54°C) to 300°F (149°C)
Cured form: Non-flammable, hard solid
Clean-Up: Uncured: Wipe with damp cloth.
Cured: Remove with a combination of soaking in methylene chloride and
mechanical abrasion such as a wire brush.
For disassembly: Heat parts up to 482°F (250°C) and separate parts while hot.










Hi,
      Well...IF you are dealing with RED loctite and NOT using heat, you are playing a dangerous game IMO!!! :-[



While the locking agent Kawasaki uses is Red, I don't think it is "Red Loctite" brand.  I've installed 2 sets of the Canyon Cages without issue, but last fall after my wreck, I needed to replace the rear sub-frame and I had a devil of a time removing 2 of the bolts.  Finally, when I got them removed, they were coated with the red locking agent that Kawasaki uses to the point that the red locking agent formed a "washer" of sorts between the head of the bolt and the frame.  The service manual calls for a non-permanent locking agent for those bolts and, in comparison, red Loctite brand is considered a permanent locking agent. Also, I have an 800F soldering iron and that thing did not make a dent in melting the locking agent. 

Offline Big-Al

  • Scooter
  • ***
  • Posts: 261
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2015, 05:17:27 pm »

So what did you heat with and why did the bolts break still ?


I would question the use of a soldering iron to heat the bolt/block thread area containing the compound. The Loctite specification sheet calls for a temperature of 500F. While the tip temperature of a (powerful) soldering iron can exceed 500F, I question its ability to transfer (via conductance) enough heat to liquify the compound. Trying to heat such a large amount of metal with such a small heating device would result in heat being "wicked" off by the surrounding metal.

You need to make your first shot at loosening the bolt your best one by applying the heat properly, as you may not get a second chance.

The right side (I used propane) gave me trouble because of my mistake... I didn't heat it long enough as I was worried about the paint blistering. The left side I used MAPP with soldering tip and didn't worry about paint blistering as the CC covers it up anyhow. Came right out with easy turn of ratchet. As it turned out, very little damage was done to the paint.

Many ways to skin this cat but using hot/quick heat needs to be the lowest common denominator. Even though the CC instructions call for using a breaker bar (and several COG members had success with it), it is not the way to go. Even if you break the bolt loose, you risk deforming/weakening the threads (even if the damage can't be seen)... and may come back to haunt you in the future. Running a tap through it cannot correct the damage.
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline JTX

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
  • TEXAS 2015 ZG14
    • 2015
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2015, 10:45:25 pm »

I appreciate the followup.

I just put my craftsman socket on it with an extension and a 3 foot bar and gave it moderate force just now.  Past, the 40FP they tighten these things at + some  and it didnt budge.  It made my wrench flex pretty good.

No heat or anything, just curious if it would break free as some others have said.

I can see a squirt of the orange thread locker they are using, so its obvious they are using a thread compound.

I'm going to ping my local dealer where I bought it from, see what they would charge me, or if they have even done it before and know how to do it. And see what they will charge.

This process is not worth busted bolts and stripped mounts to me.  My insurance deductible is way less than the cost of fixing a broken motor mount, if I was to drop it and need to replace a body panel.

I'm pretty confident I can install the bag protectors without any issues, so at least I will have that for now.

I'm going to try the heat method and give it about the same torque sometime before I hit the dealer up though ,and see if they will come out easy like you are saying.  Thats what should happen after your release a thread lock compound.  It comes out with the torque you installed them at.

The challenge will be protecting the plastic bits nearby.  My mapp gas torch has a pretty good nozzle on it though so it may not be too hard.









So what did you heat with and why did the bolts break still ?


I would question the use of a soldering iron to heat the bolt/block thread area containing the compound. The Loctite specification sheet calls for a temperature of 500F. While the tip temperature of a (powerful) soldering iron can exceed 500F, I question its ability to transfer (via conductance) enough heat to liquify the compound. Trying to heat such a large amount of metal with such a small heating device would result in heat being "wicked" off by the surrounding metal.

You need to make your first shot at loosening the bolt your best one by applying the heat properly, as you may not get a second chance.

The right side (I used propane) gave me trouble because of my mistake... I didn't heat it long enough as I was worried about the paint blistering. The left side I used MAPP with soldering tip and didn't worry about paint blistering as the CC covers it up anyhow. Came right out with easy turn of ratchet. As it turned out, very little damage was done to the paint.

Many ways to skin this cat but using hot/quick heat needs to be the lowest common denominator. Even though the CC instructions call for using a breaker bar (and several COG members had success with it), it is not the way to go. Even if you break the bolt loose, you risk deforming/weakening the threads (even if the damage can't be seen)... and may come back to haunt you in the future. Running a tap through it cannot correct the damage.

Offline Big-Al

  • Scooter
  • ***
  • Posts: 261
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2015, 11:49:32 pm »

I appreciate the followup.

I just put my craftsman socket on it with an extension and a 3 foot bar and gave it moderate force just now.  Past, the 40FP they tighten these things at + some  and it didnt budge.  It made my wrench flex pretty good.

No heat or anything, just curious if it would break free as some others have said.

I can see a squirt of the orange thread locker they are using, so its obvious they are using a thread compound.

I'm going to ping my local dealer where I bought it from, see what they would charge me, or if they have even done it before and know how to do it. And see what they will charge.

This process is not worth busted bolts and stripped mounts to me.  My insurance deductible is way less than the cost of fixing a broken motor mount, if I was to drop it and need to replace a body panel.

I'm pretty confident I can install the bag protectors without any issues, so at least I will have that for now.

I'm going to try the heat method and give it about the same torque sometime before I hit the dealer up though ,and see if they will come out easy like you are saying.  Thats what should happen after your release a thread lock compound.  It comes out with the torque you installed them at.

The challenge will be protecting the plastic bits nearby.  My mapp gas torch has a pretty good nozzle on it though so it may not be too hard.









So what did you heat with and why did the bolts break still ?


I would question the use of a soldering iron to heat the bolt/block thread area containing the compound. The Loctite specification sheet calls for a temperature of 500F. While the tip temperature of a (powerful) soldering iron can exceed 500F, I question its ability to transfer (via conductance) enough heat to liquify the compound. Trying to heat such a large amount of metal with such a small heating device would result in heat being "wicked" off by the surrounding metal.

You need to make your first shot at loosening the bolt your best one by applying the heat properly, as you may not get a second chance.

The right side (I used propane) gave me trouble because of my mistake... I didn't heat it long enough as I was worried about the paint blistering. The left side I used MAPP with soldering tip and didn't worry about paint blistering as the CC covers it up anyhow. Came right out with easy turn of ratchet. As it turned out, very little damage was done to the paint.

Many ways to skin this cat but using hot/quick heat needs to be the lowest common denominator. Even though the CC instructions call for using a breaker bar (and several COG members had success with it), it is not the way to go. Even if you break the bolt loose, you risk deforming/weakening the threads (even if the damage can't be seen)... and may come back to haunt you in the future. Running a tap through it cannot correct the damage.

I didn't measure the torque so have no idea what it broke loose at. Maybe I should have calibrated my elbow first. But after heating it, I removed it (quite easily) with a ratchet and extension. If I had to guess, I think I used less than 40 FT-LBS of torque. The main reason to use heat is because the red thread locker minimally "welds" the bolt in place. If you don't use heat, you are putting a lot of stress on the threads. Sure... sometimes force will loosen it, but what effect is that force having on the "welded" threads? Fatiguing/damaging them perhaps? Excuse my use of the word weld as it doesn't quite fit, but could think of no better word at this time.

For what it's worth, here is my advice. Beg/borrow/steal a solder tip for your MAPP torch so you don't obsess over blistered paint. The tip will minimize it. Bear in mind that any paint blistering will be covered up by the CC's anyhow. After heating it, loosen it with a ratchet as you can "feel" what is going on much better than with breaker bar and long extension. If it doesn't loosen when you reach the dreaded point of no return (stripping the hex points), repeat the process. BTW... don't use a Sears hex socket as they fit looser than they should. I used a snap-on that fit very snugly.

Another idea. You seem very fearful of having trouble (I don't blame you), so how about taking it to a dealer and having them loosen the bolts? They won't charge much and will be responsible if they screw it up. After the bolts are loose, drive it home and complete the installation. Make sure you get a knowledgeable mechanic that is familiar with Kawasaki procedure (heating) for red loctite bolts.
2012 Kawasaki Concours (Arabian Red) (1400cc)
2008 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
2004 BMW K1200GT (1200cc)
1998 BMW K1200RS (1200cc)
1991 BMW K1 (1000cc)
1986 BMW K100 LT (1000cc)
1980 BMW R100 RT (1000cc)
1975 BMW R90/6 (900cc)
1972 BSA Lightning (750cc)
1970 Norton Commando (750cc)
1969 Triumph Bonneville (650cc)
1968 Harley Davidson Sprint (250cc)
1967 Honda Super Hawk (305cc)
1967 Honda Cub (65cc)

Offline JTX

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
  • TEXAS 2015 ZG14
    • 2015
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Canyon Cages Install Nightmare...
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2015, 11:55:00 pm »

I appreciate the followup.

I just put my craftsman socket on it with an extension and a 3 foot bar and gave it moderate force just now.  Past, the 40FP they tighten these things at + some  and it didnt budge.  It made my wrench flex pretty good.

No heat or anything, just curious if it would break free as some others have said.

I can see a squirt of the orange thread locker they are using, so its obvious they are using a thread compound.

I'm going to ping my local dealer where I bought it from, see what they would charge me, or if they have even done it before and know how to do it. And see what they will charge.

This process is not worth busted bolts and stripped mounts to me.  My insurance deductible is way less than the cost of fixing a broken motor mount, if I was to drop it and need to replace a body panel.

I'm pretty confident I can install the bag protectors without any issues, so at least I will have that for now.

I'm going to try the heat method and give it about the same torque sometime before I hit the dealer up though ,and see if they will come out easy like you are saying.  Thats what should happen after your release a thread lock compound.  It comes out with the torque you installed them at.

The challenge will be protecting the plastic bits nearby.  My mapp gas torch has a pretty good nozzle on it though so it may not be too hard.









So what did you heat with and why did the bolts break still ?


I would question the use of a soldering iron to heat the bolt/block thread area containing the compound. The Loctite specification sheet calls for a temperature of 500F. While the tip temperature of a (powerful) soldering iron can exceed 500F, I question its ability to transfer (via conductance) enough heat to liquify the compound. Trying to heat such a large amount of metal with such a small heating device would result in heat being "wicked" off by the surrounding metal.

You need to make your first shot at loosening the bolt your best one by applying the heat properly, as you may not get a second chance.



The right side (I used propane) gave me trouble because of my mistake... I didn't heat it long enough as I was worried about the paint blistering. The left side I used MAPP with soldering tip and didn't worry about paint blistering as the CC covers it up anyhow. Came right out with easy turn of ratchet. As it turned out, very little damage was done to the paint.

Many ways to skin this cat but using hot/quick heat needs to be the lowest common denominator. Even though the CC instructions call for using a breaker bar (and several COG members had success with it), it is not the way to go. Even if you break the bolt loose, you risk deforming/weakening the threads (even if the damage can't be seen)... and may come back to haunt you in the future. Running a tap through it cannot correct the damage.



I didn't measure the torque so have no idea what it broke loose at. Maybe I should have calibrated my elbow first. But after heating it, I removed it (quite easily) with a ratchet and extension. If I had to guess, I think I used less than 40 FT-LBS of torque. The main reason to use heat is because the red thread locker minimally "welds" the bolt in place. If you don't use heat, you are putting a lot of stress on the threads. Sure... sometimes force will loosen it, but what effect is that force having on the "welded" threads? Fatiguing/damaging them perhaps? Excuse my use of the word weld as it doesn't quite fit, but could think of no better word at this time.

For what it's worth, here is my advice. Beg/borrow/steal a solder tip for your MAPP torch so you don't obsess over blistered paint. The tip will minimize it. Bear in mind that any paint blistering will be covered up by the CC's anyhow. After heating it, loosen it with a ratchet as you can "feel" what is going on much better than with breaker bar and long extension. If it doesn't loosen when you reach the dreaded point of no return (stripping the hex points), repeat the process. BTW... don't use a Sears hex socket as they fit looser than they should. I used a snap-on that fit very snugly.

Another idea. You seem very fearful of having trouble (I don't blame you), so how about taking it to a dealer and having them loosen the bolts? They won't charge much and will be responsible if they screw it up. After the bolts are loose, drive it home and complete the installation. Make sure you get a knowledgeable mechanic that is familiar with Kawasaki procedure (heating) for red loctite bolts.




I'm definitely going to ask my dealer about it and see what they say. I tried another place north of town here, and they wanted almost 300$ to install the bars.  Thats just crazy.  ( 2.5 hours ! )

I 100% agree with you that forcing it is bad juju. Heat is really the only way to loosen things, which is what the removal process of threadlocked bolts is.

FORCING IT is not good.  I know an SAE auto mechanic who has all of his tools, as well and I'm sure he has a good quality snapon tool set.


I have one of these for my mapp tank

« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 12:00:11 am by JTX »