Author Topic: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors  (Read 36563 times)

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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« on: July 11, 2011, 11:14:55 pm »
I just wanted to pass on that Rob S. took his bike back to Guhl motors today and Don Guhl applied the fuel trims I developed on my Autotune system into the ECU and he then put it back on the dyno. Its a bit hard to compare it to the previous dyno run since the atmospheric conditions were a lot different, but it appears that it made a little more HP and torque in the lower RPM ranges, and the A/F readings looked good. This will probably be the last adjustment made to the reflash for a while as it appears to be pretty well dialed in now, and I can tell you from my own bike that it is a great improvement over stock and the rideability is excellent. I'm satisfied with it enough that I don't think I will make any more changes to it, and I don't feel like I want or need any more power out of the bike, as I can already spin the rear tire on corner exits easily.

The really good news is that the traction control and economy mode are unaffected, and from what testing I have done, it appears I have picked up about 2-3 MPG even in the normal mode.  So all in all, I'm real happy with the way the bike rides and responds. Now that the secondary butterflies open up sooner, they no longer restrict torque and throttle response on the lower end, and now the bike rides like a 1400cc motorcycle should.

A BIG THANKS goes out to both Guhl Motors and Rob S. for letting them test his bike on the dyno and reflash the ECU.

If you're interested in having your ECU reflashed the cost is $375. Guhl Motors web site is here: http://www.guhlmotors.com/
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Offline Wayne_Sikorski

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2011, 11:28:09 pm »
This is so tempting, being as he is just under two hours ride from here... ;D
Wayne aka "CigarSki"
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Offline armyguns

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 12:16:29 am »
This is so tempting, being as he is just under two hours ride from here... ;D

Wayne-

It's my bike that has been the test bike.  I'm not exactly sure where you are in "South Jersey" but I'm just north of Rt78 near Clinton.  If you are that interested we could meet someplace and compare notes.  I've got more than a month of some pretty serious riding to include long distance (Maryland and Vermont) and lots of riding in the twisties both solo and two up.  The difference this mod makes over a stock bike is pretty impressive, especially when riding two up.  The increase in torque really makes the bike much more rideable with a lot less effort on the rider's part.  I didn't buy this bike for the fuel mileage, but I've not seen a decrease in mileage as a result of the mod.  Plus, the ECO mode is unaffected.  All you need to do is select it and you are back to stock ECO mode.   If you do decide to have the reflash done, I highly recommend you ride over to Guhl and have it done literally while you wait.  Shouldn't take more than an hour, TOPS, since there is no need to do a dyno run.  Just make sure you set an appointment up as Guhl is a small place with only two guys (Don and Rob) doing this type of work.  This would also give you a great opportunity to play on the ride home!

Let me know what more you need to make the decision to have it done. 

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Offline wellstroked

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 02:27:53 am »
Fred,

Are you saying that Guhl will be using your specs for the reflash if I send in my ECM? 

Thanks,

Jim

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 10:35:09 am »
Fred,

Are you saying that Guhl will be using your specs for the reflash if I send in my ECM? 

Thanks,

Jim


It will be up to you. Just tell them what you want them to load and they will load it. Though I think that Guhl will probably use my fuel trims as the normal standard unless directed otherwise.

I went through 8 iterations of trims over multiple days and carefully averaged the trims from the individual gears into one file. I then loaded that new averaged file into my PCV and rode the bike and looked at the new trims to measure how close it was. I feel pretty confident in the final map. My bike is totally stock and nicely broken in with about 13K on the odometer and had a new air filter installed before I started making trim files. Jamie at Fuel Moto also told me he did some testing with the PCV Autotune and compared the files it made to ones he did on the dyno, and he said they were almost identical. In some regards, I think the files made from the Autotune may be better, since they represent real world riding instead of static testing on a dyno. My wideband O2 sensor is also installed upstream from the CATs, where the tunes they make on the dyno have the wideband O2 sensor AFTER the CATs, which can skew the readings slightly.

If you would like to look at any of the charts of the files I made, I have them posted here:

http://www.angelridevideos.com/PCV/

The final fuel trim applied to the Guhl reflash will be the average of gears 3,4, & 5 (PINK tab) on the file dated 6-24-2011. These trims represent the DIFFERENCE between the original Guhl Flash and the corrections my Autotune wanted to make after Guhl reflashed my ECU. The original Guhl reflash removed 5% fuel across the board, so these adjustments will be in addition to that.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 12:03:09 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2011, 12:27:05 pm »
Hey Wayne, how about we ride out there together?  Don used my ECU to get the stock data and figure out the maps.  I have not been able to get back there to get a reflash yet.

Offline Wayne_Sikorski

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2011, 08:28:33 pm »
Hey Wayne, how about we ride out there together?  Don used my ECU to get the stock data and figure out the maps.  I have not been able to get back there to get a reflash yet.

This looks like something I want to do. Save the trouble of removing the flies. The only time I can get out there would be a Saturday though.
Wayne aka "CigarSki"
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Offline Wayne_Sikorski

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2011, 11:49:06 pm »
Say, Fred. One question.

I am currently running a Leo Vince slip-on with quiet insert. Installed mostly to replace the stock behemoth. Will this be an issue with the current Guhl tuning map?

Wayne aka "CigarSki"
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2011, 12:07:28 am »
Say, Fred. One question.

I am currently running a Leo Vince slip-on with quiet insert. Installed mostly to replace the stock behemoth. Will this be an issue with the current Guhl tuning map?

I suspect it would be fine, but the only way to really know would be to put it on the dyno. If you are going there in person, I'd suggest putting it on the dyno and have Don check it.
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Offline wellstroked

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 12:32:27 am »
Thank you Fred. 

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2011, 06:14:49 pm »
How does the re-flash affect the warranty?
......Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, "Patience"...How long will that take?????

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 06:35:59 pm »
How does the re-flash affect the warranty?

I suspect it would depend on what actually breaks on the motorcycle and if it can be attributed to the changes in the reflash. I guess it would also depend on the dealership. In the end, its much like any other modification you can do to the bike. If the source of a problem is due to changes the owner made or aftermarket stuff added, then obviously Kawasaki isn't going to warranty it. But if your gas tank rusts out or your fuel pump fails, I doubt an ECU reflash would have any impact on warranty coverage of those items. But then again, it might just depend on how picky the dealer wants to be.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 08:53:04 pm »
this is making me ask now, do you think that the KDS unit at a dealership can see that the ecu was flashed, and changed? Just curious as I have not had my hands on one yet to actually see what a dealer can see. Have they (Guhl) told you what can bee seen?

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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 09:43:52 pm »
I don't know what the KDS3 can see, but I'd be surprised if they could tell. I know some ECU's use CVN codes in them that can be looked at to see if it has been altered or not, but I don't know if the C14 ECU has any such codes.

If you are worried about your warranty being affected, then you might be best advised to leave it alone. Personally, I bought my bike to ride and enjoy, and the level of improvement I get from having the low end torque returned that the butterflies rob me of far outweighs any worries about my warranty. So I guess it just depends on your level of risk tolerance and how much you feel you want the extra low end torque and improved throttle response.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2011, 10:24:17 pm »
Today Guhl Motors loaded a new tune into Rob's bike that has an even more aggressive secondary throttle opening rate, along with the fuel maps that I made using my Autotune system. Rob sent me an email and says that the bike now accelerates even harder. So I think we now have a tune that pretty much mimicks total butterfly removal and remapping with a Power Commander. They didn't have time to put it on the dyno, but hopefully they will get to do that sometime in the future. This new map has the butterflies almost 100% open nearly all the time.

I'm currently ridding on a slightly less aggressive map, which the original dyno chart shows, and it is also a very nice tune. So I think Don now has two very good tunes available, one with a moderate increase, and one with a more aggressive increase. In some ways, I actually like the moderate map more than when I had the butterflies totally removed, as it seems to be just a little more rider friendly in some regards, though I haven't yet ridden on Don's new map. I'll probably send my ECU back and have him reflash it again so I can try it out.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 10:30:17 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline armyguns

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2011, 12:02:55 am »
Today Guhl Motors loaded a new tune into Rob's bike that has an even more aggressive secondary throttle opening rate, along with the fuel maps that I made using my Autotune system. Rob sent me an email and says that the bike now accelerates even harder. So I think we now have a tune that pretty much mimicks total butterfly removal and remapping with a Power Commander. They didn't have time to put it on the dyno, but hopefully they will get to do that sometime in the future. This new map has the butterflies almost 100% open nearly all the time.

I'm VERY happy with the map Don installed today.  It provides the more aggressive torque without the problem of the loss of 'engine braking' (as Don called it) that I had previously.  I got to play a bit in the twisties on the way home and power delivery is very smooth and predictable.  There is no hint of abruptness at all.  If you are conservative with the throttle, you won't wake up those ponies that are hiding down there.  Give the throttle a bit of a twist and things come alive.  Twist it harder and HOLD ON because you start covering a lot of ground really quickly.  On the highway you really need to be careful with your speed as that extra HP and torque in the lower RPM range really pays off.  Its very easy to go fast without making the bike work hard at it.  I really noticed the improvement this past Sunday when I was riding two-up with my wife.  I've got a bit over 2000 miles since the first remap on 10 June and things just keep getting better.
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Offline Bagger

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2011, 12:16:22 am »
Hey, Bob ...

Hopefully, you can have the bike dyno'd so we can see where it sits on power and torque vs stock ... and maybe the old tune as well.

Any chance of that happening?
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2011, 12:33:59 am »
We posted the dyno charts for the first tune already. I suspect if someone takes another bike into Don for the reflash, he will put it on the dyno and check it. I think Bob's bike has already been on the dyno 2 or 3 times.
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Offline armyguns

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2011, 11:37:34 am »
We posted the dyno charts for the first tune already. I suspect if someone takes another bike into Don for the reflash, he will put it on the dyno and check it. I think Bob's bike has already been on the dyno 2 or 3 times.

Fred is correct that the charts have been posted.  The chart that is currently published in the latest copy of The Concourier is the map that Don reinstalled yesterday.  I took that data and plotted a percent improvement over the stock map at each of the major RPM points.  I believe that has also been posted, but I'll throw it in here.....
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Offline Wayne_Sikorski

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2011, 03:16:04 pm »
@Bob: Which mapping would you suggest for a fairly conservative rider? I like the idea of bumping up the torque at the bottom end for two up riding.

@Millsan1: Did you hear back from Guhl about a Sat. reflash?
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Offline armyguns

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2011, 03:28:33 pm »
@Bob: Which mapping would you suggest for a fairly conservative rider? I like the idea of bumping up the torque at the bottom end for two up riding.

@Millsan1: Did you hear back from Guhl about a Sat. reflash?

Wayne-

I would go with the map I have.  I think you will absolutely love the improvement.  I offered this up previously, and the offer still stands- if you want to try it out on my bike, we can make that happen.  Same for you Millsan1.   Both of you guys are pretty local to me. 
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Offline armyguns

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2011, 03:31:33 pm »
@Bob: Which mapping would you suggest for a fairly conservative rider? I like the idea of bumping up the torque at the bottom end for two up riding.

@Millsan1: Did you hear back from Guhl about a Sat. reflash?

Wayne-

I would go with the map I have.  I think you will absolutely love the improvement.  I offered this up previously, and the offer still stands- if you want to try it out on my bike, we can make that happen.  Same for you Millsan1.   Both of you guys are pretty local to me.

And now that I think about it...we can swap my ECU into your bike and you can take your own bike for a spin. 
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2011, 03:48:57 pm »
And now that I think about it...we can swap my ECU into your bike and you can take your own bike for a spin.

No you can't swap ECU's. The KIPASS registration keys are programmed in to the Engine ECU, and the Engine ECU, KIPASS Receiver ECU, and steering lock mechanisms are all married to each other.

The only way you could do it is if you had a KDS3 tool to reprogam it to work on a different bike.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 03:57:32 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline wally_games

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2011, 04:30:58 pm »
Ok, guys. Let's say you've now convinced me that I want my '11 ECU reflashed to the most recent version of your mapping. What's it going to set me back and how long does it take?

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2011, 04:40:47 pm »
Ok, guys. Let's say you've now convinced me that I want my '11 ECU reflashed to the most recent version of your mapping. What's it going to set me back and how long does it take?

Guhl Motors is charging $375, and they can do it in a day. So how long it takes really just depends on what shipping you are willing to pay for. I sent mine in on a Monday and had it back on Friday, and I paid for 2 day Air UPS.
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