Author Topic: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors  (Read 37736 times)

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Offline Wayne_Sikorski

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2011, 08:08:11 pm »
Wayne-

I would go with the map I have.  I think you will absolutely love the improvement.  I offered this up previously, and the offer still stands- if you want to try it out on my bike, we can make that happen.  Same for you Millsan1.   Both of you guys are pretty local to me.

Thanks for the offer. I guess that we're still waitin' on a reply from Guhl.
Wayne aka "CigarSki"
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2011, 08:30:46 pm »
I think I'd also go with the latest adjustment he made too, but I'd want to get him to put it on the dyno and check the A/F readings on it just to be safe.
Fred H.


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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2011, 02:59:26 pm »
I have not yet heard back from Don, but I am not riding this weekend.  100+ degrees is too much for a pleasure ride.  Going on the boat instead.

Offline Wayne_Sikorski

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2011, 08:12:31 pm »
+1 on the heat. We have the Governor and a pile of politicos visiting where I work tomorrow for our official corporate grand opening. I get paid to hang around and drink champagne all afternoon. The heat should make it real interesting in the shop. 400,000 SQFT of roof area.  :o
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2011, 02:04:06 pm »
I think you guys are in for a treat once you get this done. The improvement is pretty impressive.
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Offline Necron99

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2011, 09:54:22 pm »
Does this re-flash change the speed limit from 155 or whatever up to 186 or so as well?

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2011, 03:11:33 pm »
Does this re-flash change the speed limit from 155 or whatever up to 186 or so as well?

Yes, if you ask him to, he will change that when he reflashes it and he can set it to whatever you want it to. 300 km/hr is what the 08 is set to, and that's probably faster than the bike can go anyway.
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Offline Necron99

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2011, 03:30:29 pm »
Cool, thanks for the info, Fred.  Much appreciated.

Offline Killer

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2011, 01:58:18 am »
Wayne-

I would go with the map I have.  I think you will absolutely love the improvement.  I offered this up previously, and the offer still stands- if you want to try it out on my bike, we can make that happen.  Same for you Millsan1.   Both of you guys are pretty local to me.

Thanks for the offer. I guess that we're still waitin' on a reply from Guhl.
Wayne! Did you re-flash your ECU at Guhl Motors yet.....?
Tom "Killer" Kowalski         2009 Concours 14 ABS Black
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man's greed." ~~ Mohandas Ghandi

Offline Wayne_Sikorski

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2011, 09:38:08 pm »
[Wayne! Did you re-flash your ECU at Guhl Motors yet.....?

I think that were still waiting for a reply from Guhl...
Wayne aka "CigarSki"
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2011, 10:14:23 pm »
[Wayne! Did you re-flash your ECU at Guhl Motors yet.....?

I think that were still waiting for a reply from Guhl...

Don has been on vacation this past week, but should be in tomorrow. I'd suggest you try to contact him again.
Fred H.


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Offline MrFurious

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2011, 11:59:30 am »
So if I'm reading this correctly there are now two tune options with the main difference being how far the reflash opens the secondary flies.  The first (what Fred currently has) having a more moderate (say 50-60%) opening of the flies, and the second with a more radical (say 90-100%) opening of the flies similar to removing them. 

Also, for those who have put a few thousand or more miles on the reflash at this point, how does it affect fuel mileage?  Slightly better?  Slightly worse?  Same? 

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2011, 03:57:27 pm »
So if I'm reading this correctly there are now two tune options with the main difference being how far the reflash opens the secondary flies.  The first (what Fred currently has) having a more moderate (say 50-60%) opening of the flies, and the second with a more radical (say 90-100%) opening of the flies similar to removing them. 

Also, for those who have put a few thousand or more miles on the reflash at this point, how does it affect fuel mileage?  Slightly better?  Slightly worse?  Same?

Don reflashed my ECU yesterday with the newest map with the more aggressive butterfly opening rates in them as well as the new fuel map changes based on my autotune. I hope to test it out in a couple days and compare it to the previous map I had. I'll try to make some dyno charts from my GTech unit and post them.

My suspicion is that most everyone is going to prefer the latest map with the more aggressive butterfly opening rates, as I suspect it provides the most improvement in low end torque.

Gas mileage is reported to be just slightly better with both reflashes, though I don't know yet by how much. Based on the fueling changes, I would only expect it to be about 2mpg at best.
Fred H.


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Offline TC

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2011, 04:53:14 pm »
Fred, What is the basic function of the butterflys?

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2011, 08:58:03 pm »
Fred, What is the basic function of the butterflys?

According to what the Kawasaki Execs told me, they were originally installed on the 2008 model to reduce intake noise and help them pass the EPA noise and pollution restrictions. I also believe they used them to try to smooth out (slow) throttle response on the low end and make the bike more rider friendly for newer riders by reducing torque and throttle response in the lower gears and at the lower RPM's, though I've never heard Kawasaki to openly admit it. I have also verified that intake noise does indeed increase when you remove them, so maybe Kawasaki was telling the truth (or at least part of the truth) when they said they were used to decrease intake noise.

In 2010/11 they also use them as a control element for the traction control system. When the traction control system senses wheel spin, it cuts spark, fuel, and closes the secondary throttle plates.

I have also done quite a bit of testing on the traction control system after having the butterfly map altered in my ECU, and it still functions exactly the same as before. The ECU ignores the map when the traction control is active and closes the butterflies until wheel spin stops. I have taken the bike onto gravel and sand and intentionally tried to spin the rear wheel after having the butterfly map adjusted in my ECU, and it functions perfectly in every way, and I am not able to get the rear wheel to spin in the slightest. This is one of the big reasons I wanted to alter the map for them in the ECU and not simply remove them, as it allows the traction control to function normally.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 09:00:39 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2011, 11:01:44 am »
I got my ECU back with the latest revisions to the butterfly and fuel maps and took the bike for a ride last night. I can notice more of a change now when I switch between the Economy and normal modes, and it does feel like it is improved over the previous map with even more low end torque. I haven't yet put the GTech on it to measure the difference, but I did turn on the autotune to see what kind of trim files for the fuel it would make, and it really didn't make any significant trim adjustments, so I think the fuel map is good.
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Offline Killer

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2011, 06:40:22 pm »
So if I'm reading this correctly there are now two tune options with the main difference being how far the reflash opens the secondary flies.  The first (what Fred currently has) having a more moderate (say 50-60%) opening of the flies, and the second with a more radical (say 90-100%) opening of the flies similar to removing them. 

Also, for those who have put a few thousand or more miles on the reflash at this point, how does it affect fuel mileage?  Slightly better?  Slightly worse?  Same?


Don reflashed my ECU yesterday with the newest map
with the more aggressive butterfly opening rates in them as well as the new fuel map changes based on my autotune. I hope to test it out in a couple days and compare it to the previous map I had. I'll try to make some dyno charts from my GTech unit and post them.

My suspicion is that most everyone is going to prefer the latest map with the more aggressive butterfly opening rates, as I suspect it provides the most improvement in low end torque.


Gas mileage is reported to be just slightly better with both reflashes, though I don't know yet by how much. Based on the fueling changes, I would only expect it to be about 2mpg at best.
Fred! Will this newest map be available for 08s/09s ???
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2011, 07:27:49 pm »
Fred! Will this newest map be available for 08s/09s ???

Yes, it is available now and is what Don has been flashing into all C14 ECU's. I had an older version of his first reflash that had a less aggressive butterfly opening rate that he used as the first test version. We intentionally took baby steps in making adjustment to the butterfly map. The one he uses now pretty much makes the bike ride like it would if the butterflies were totally removed, except it has a smoother throttle response at low RPMs in the lower gears, and is not as abrupt at slow speeds like removing the butterflies sometimes results in.

All in all, I think this is a very solid map, and I'm real happy with it.
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Offline LancasterC14

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2011, 11:41:16 pm »
Any progress on the plans of sending the software and interface cable to prospective buyers rather than sending the ECU to have reflashed?

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2011, 02:35:40 am »
Any progress on the plans of sending the software and interface cable to prospective buyers rather than sending the ECU to have reflashed?

I've not heard any new progress reports on that portion of it. But I'll warn you up front, it probably isn't going to be cheap to go that route. I'd guess it's going to cost at least twice what it would to send the ECU in to be reflashed, or possibly more. I paid about $800 for an EFI Live tool to program the ECU in my car. So just be prepared in advance to pony up if you want the programmer tool, and I suspect it will only come with a license to do one ECU.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 02:49:11 am by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2011, 05:27:55 pm »
Here is a link to a video I shot using my PCV LCD display to show the secondary throttle butterfly positions, and doing some throttle roll ons at 3,500 rpm in 4th gear after the Guhl reflash.

I first do two with it in the normal more, and then I do two more in Economy mode, so you can see the difference in the butterfly opening rates between the two modes now. Before the reflash, the rates were almost identical in both modes.

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Offline mcrider007

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2011, 08:00:26 pm »
Here is a link to a video I shot using my PCV LCD display to show the secondary throttle butterfly positions, and doing some throttle roll ons at 3,500 rpm in 4th gear after the Guhl reflash.

I first do two with it in the normal more, and then I do two more in Economy mode, so you can see the difference in the butterfly opening rates between the two modes now. Before the reflash, the rates were almost identical in both modes.

How much difference is there between the modes when 5th or 6th gear is used?

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2011, 08:57:40 pm »
Here is a link to a video I shot using my PCV LCD display to show the secondary throttle butterfly positions, and doing some throttle roll ons at 3,500 rpm in 4th gear after the Guhl reflash.

I first do two with it in the normal more, and then I do two more in Economy mode, so you can see the difference in the butterfly opening rates between the two modes now. Before the reflash, the rates were almost identical in both modes.

How much difference is there between the modes when 5th or 6th gear is used?

I've got a 5th gear video I can post if you want to see it, but according to Don Guhl, the butterfly maps are the same for all gears. The 5th gear roll on looks pretty much the same as the 4th gear video.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 09:01:56 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
Fred H.


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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2011, 09:07:06 pm »
I just uploaded a 5th gear roll on. Same as before, two roll ons in normal with Guhl reflash and two in ECO mode.

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Offline mcrider007

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2011, 09:29:53 pm »

I've got a 5th gear video I can post if you want to see it, but according to Don Guhl, the butterfly maps are the same for all gears. The 5th gear roll on looks pretty much the same as the 4th gear video.

If the butterfly maps are the same for all gears, I wonder what explains the performance increase when a GiPro is used because there definitely is a difference in performance between the GiPro being turned off vs being set to use the 6th gear maps....and there is that 2007 video of C14 dyno runs showing the differences in torque between 4th vs 5th gear in the lower rpm ranges.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 12:52:49 am by mcrider007 »