Author Topic: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors  (Read 37791 times)

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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2011, 10:46:44 pm »
If the butterfly maps are the same for all gears, I wonder what explains the performance increase when a GiPro is used because there definitely is a difference in performance between the GiPro being turned off vs being set to the use the 6th gear maps....and there is that 2007 video of C14 dyno runs showing the differences in torque between 4th vs 5th gear in the lower rpm ranges.

Yea, I've wondered the same thing, and I don't have an explanation unless Don missed something in the maps when he was looking at them. Its possible they had some small variations that he overlooked. The only other possible explanation would be differences in the timing tables for the different gears.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 11:51:26 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Peter

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2011, 04:50:29 am »
Regarding the GIPro, I had one installed on a Rocket3, the explanation given to me for the increase in performance was that the timing retardation was eliminated by the GIPRO fooling the ECU into thinking that it was in sixth gear (or fifth for the Rocket) where there was no timing retardation; there was a definate boost when I had it installed set correctly on the Rocket.

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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2011, 11:50:28 am »
I stand corrected. I just got a look at the OEM butterfly maps and they are bit different for the different gears. Not a huge amount, but they are different. There are 3 maps, and a nuetral map. Gears 1&2 share a map, 3&4 share a map, and 5&6 share a map.

As an example, at 5K RPM and 1.02 volts out of the primary throttle position sensor, the gear 1 map has the butterflies open to 33%.  The same cell in the gear 6 map has them open to 38%. So the changes aren't huge, but the 6 gear map for the butterflies does have them open more.

See this thread for more info:
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,28657.0.html
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 02:43:53 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Mad River Marc

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2011, 06:05:34 pm »
I'm really curious to see if the KDS software can detect that the ECU has been tampered with.      Also,  what happens if there is a problem while Guhl is reflashing? (IE they lose power during the flash etc) and your ECU is ruined,  who pays?
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2011, 06:29:13 pm »
I'm really curious to see if the KDS software can detect that the ECU has been tampered with.      Also,  what happens if there is a problem while Guhl is reflashing? (IE they lose power during the flash etc) and your ECU is ruined,  who pays?

I don't believe the KDS software does anything more than read out diagnostic codes from the ECU and programs in new registry info for new FOBs or the KIPASS ECU or steering lock mechanisms. I have the compete KDS manual, and I don't see anything in it that indicates it does any validity checking.

However, this is just like any other mod. If you remove your butterflies and a dealer later finds they are gone and you are trying to claim warranty work for something that is related to them, then yes they may deny your warranty. However, if you have a windsheild motor fail or tire sensor battery go dead, I seriously doubt they are going to deny your warranty claim just cause you had your ECU reflashed. Some common sense is normally used by dealerships when aftermarket modifications are done to a bike with regards to warranty. So I don't think it's like your whole warranty is out the window just cause your ECU has been reflashed.

As for the question of power loss during an ECU reflash, I don't believe that has ever happened, and Don has been in business doing this for quite a while. I haven't asked him, but I suspect he has a UPS system on his equipment anyway. You could ask him if you're worried about it, but I think you're worrying about scenarios that are likely to never happen.

The real question you should be asking is who pays for the speeding ticket you get when you get your ECU back and you find yourself riding 20mph over the posted speed limit every time you get on the bike.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 06:32:36 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Mad River Marc

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2011, 06:37:37 pm »
By law I don't think they CAN deny you a warranty claim due to a modification unless the modification CAUSED the issue (Magnusen Moss Warranty law IIRC)  however, every dealer I've heard of around here will look for ANY excuse to deny warranty (they don't get paid a lot for warranty work)

However, given that the ECU is the brain of the ship so to speak, if you suddenly had other issues TPS issues  for example (other then an actual dead battery in the sensor etc) and they found out, they prob could use that as a valid reason to deny service (They could say they were unable to program a key or TPS due to a modified ECU not talking to the Kipass ecu correctly)

I'm interested in this mod, but need to be aware of all the pros and cons.

What happens if you send them the ECU and they brick it during reflashing?  are you out the cost of the ECU or do they replace it?
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2011, 07:00:04 pm »
What happens if you send them the ECU and they brick it during reflashing?  are you out the cost of the ECU or do they replace it?

Don Guhl is a stand up guy. I'd have to believe he would not leave you high and dry if he bricked your ECU. Furthermore, just from the sheer number of ECU's he has reflashed, I think the chances of that happening are so low that it's not worth worrying over. But if you're worried about this, give him a call or send him an email and ask him.
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Offline Mad River Marc

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2011, 03:54:48 pm »
Gonna see how the $ situation falls out in the next few mos, and maybe over the winter send him the ECU..

I wonder what else they can dink with that is electronically controlled... (IE program OUT that stupid linked braking system)
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Offline wyland

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2011, 07:53:27 pm »
i will get it done but will wait untill i am snowed in and cant ride so i am not down a bike for a week.
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Offline Stewart

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2011, 09:09:38 pm »
I understand the need to keep riding, but the team at Guhl can turn it around pretty quick. I had mine back within a week including shipping. Looking forward to flying home and riding the next few weeks.
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2011, 12:55:17 am »
Thanks for this thread and I appreciate the info.

Does the reflash offer an improved powerband vs removing the files entirely?  I suppose logic says it does since the guys reflashing could make the files be open 100% at all speeds.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2011, 02:11:59 am »
Thanks for this thread and I appreciate the info.

Does the reflash offer an improved powerband vs removing the files entirely?  I suppose logic says it does since the guys reflashing could make the files be open 100% at all speeds.

Its a little tough to say for sure how it compares to when the flies are actually removed and the fuel remapped with a Power Commander. My "seat of the pants" feel tells me it's real close. I think removing the secondary butterflies provides a bit more instantaneous throttle response, but it can also make the bike a bit more difficult to control at low speeds in the lower gears, as the throttle feels a bit more twitchy. The reflash doesn't have the twitchy behavior that removing the butterflies causes, and also addresses the fuel remapping, so you don't need a Power Commander. I'd really have to see back to back dyno comparisons to say for sure, but my "gut feeling" is that removing the butterflies does give a very slight better response since they are gone altogether and there is zero lag time when you twist the throttle till they open up, but the down side to that is it makes the throttle control in the lower gears at low speed a bit more touchy.

My personal feeling is that reflashing gives you the best of both worlds, and allows good low speed handing and throttle control, while giving you back the torque you loose in the mid range band, and also allowing the traction control to work like it should. And since you don't need a Power Commander, you have improved reliability and your MPG readouts are still accurate.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 02:16:05 am by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Stewart

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2011, 01:21:21 pm »
Fred,

I've been riding around Martha's Vineyard the last couple of days and the flash has been great. Fully loaded up with gear and the wife the additional torque low down has made the bike feel as it should.

But idling along at 30-35 miles an hour in 3rd/4th gear along the coast I've found that the bike runs better in ECO mode. Why, well it seems in Standard (Guhl) Mode the bike wants to go, its edgy like a racing horse. The engine pusles a little as if it needs more gas and wants to run. Switch it to ECO mode and the revs jump 200-300 and then everything settles down and runs smooth.

Have you experienced anything like this? I've not complaining, its actually a nice feeling and exactly why I wanted 2 maps via the flash.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2011, 01:26:04 pm »
Fred,

I've been riding around Martha's Vineyard the last couple of days and the flash has been great. Fully loaded up with gear and the wife the additional torque low down has made the bike feel as it should.

But idling along at 30-35 miles an hour in 3rd/4th gear along the coast I've found that the bike runs better in ECO mode. Why, well it seems in Standard (Guhl) Mode the bike wants to go, its edgy like a racing horse. The engine pusles a little as if it needs more gas and wants to run. Switch it to ECO mode and the revs jump 200-300 and then everything settles down and runs smooth.

Have you experienced anything like this? I've not complaining, its actually a nice feeling and exactly why I wanted 2 maps via the flash.

Stuart, I'll have to investigate that when I get my bike back together. It may just be that when the butterflies are closed it subdues the throttle response enough that you don't feel it.
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Offline Stewart

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2011, 01:36:56 pm »
I don't think its throttle response as I held it still while I monitored it. I really think its a combination of rev's and fuel and a tipping point of some sort, maybe some natural frequency/resonates. The bike rides perfectly fine and is still smooth, it just wants to break free.

I'll test it out again when we head out to lunch.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2011, 01:59:18 pm »
I don't think its throttle response as I held it still while I monitored it. I really think its a combination of rev's and fuel and a tipping point of some sort, maybe some natural frequency/resonates. The bike rides perfectly fine and is still smooth, it just wants to break free.

I'll test it out again when we head out to lunch.

It might be a lean spot in the fuel map causing lean surging. We might need to make a small adjustment to it at that RPM to richen it up just a tad. Can you tell me exactly what RPM it is happening at?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 02:06:21 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2011, 02:01:14 am »
I think I will send mine in. I'm slightly concerned about a warranty issue, but not concerned enough to live with the stock map for two more years.

I want the extra low end torque.  I am at at an altitude of 4500-7000 ft and the bikes lose a significant amount of power at altitude. 

Plus, the low end response. If the bike had carbs, I would have bought jets by now. I suppose this really is not that much different.
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Offline armyguns

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2011, 10:08:37 am »
I don't think its throttle response as I held it still while I monitored it. I really think its a combination of rev's and fuel and a tipping point of some sort, maybe some natural frequency/resonates. The bike rides perfectly fine and is still smooth, it just wants to break free.

I'll test it out again when we head out to lunch.

It might be a lean spot in the fuel map causing lean surging. We might need to make a small adjustment to it at that RPM to richen it up just a tad. Can you tell me exactly what RPM it is happening at?
Fred-Stewart

Post the RPM range and I will confirm if it is happening on my bike too.  I don't think it is. 
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Offline Stewart

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2011, 02:03:52 pm »
Quote
Fred-Stewart

Post the RPM range and I will confirm if it is happening on my bike too.  I don't think it is.

I rode the bike a little more 2-up / 1-up and could reproduce what I thought I noticed. I'll continue to monitor it.

Otherwise the bike was rock solid all weekend and the extra grunt low down was great.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2011, 02:10:51 pm »
Quote
Fred-Stewart

Post the RPM range and I will confirm if it is happening on my bike too.  I don't think it is.

I rode the bike a little more 2-up / 1-up and could reproduce what I thought I noticed. I'll continue to monitor it.

Otherwise the bike was rock solid all weekend and the extra grunt low down was great.

If you'll tell me the RPM and general throttle position where it is occurring, I'll look at the fuel map in that location and see what it is currently set to.
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Offline Stewart

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2011, 02:22:01 pm »
Quote
If you'll tell me the RPM and general throttle position where it is occurring, I'll look at the fuel map in that location and see what it is currently set to

Sorry typo...meant to say I couldn't really reproduce what I noticed. In general it happened at around 30-35 mph, in 3rd/4th gear, just idling along. I guess the revs would have been somewhere between 2500-3500 RPM. Throttle position would be next to off or just on enough to keep the bike rolling along.

The bike ran fine, but at a certain rev it seemed that it wanted more throttle and to pick up the revs. I've noticed this in several cars where sitting around 3000 RPM the car doesn't seem to run smooth, but bump it to 3200 or so and everything smooths out.

Since I couldn't really reproduce, lets forget it unless someone else or I notice it again.
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Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2011, 03:04:10 pm »
Any progress on the plans of sending the software and interface cable to prospective buyers rather than sending the ECU to have reflashed?

I've not heard any new progress reports on that portion of it. But I'll warn you up front, it probably isn't going to be cheap to go that route. I'd guess it's going to cost at least twice what it would to send the ECU in to be reflashed, or possibly more. I paid about $800 for an EFI Live tool to program the ECU in my car. So just be prepared in advance to pony up if you want the programmer tool, and I suspect it will only come with a license to do one ECU.

If anyone wants to do this, ECUnleashed (they google up) has this stuff, and its not all that expensive. They sell ECU images too. Folks on ZX14 forum have purchased from them and like the result.
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Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2011, 03:07:30 pm »
Fred or anyone..... who do I call and what phone number to arrange to send my ECU to Guhl, and besides do I want the speed limit removed, what else do I need to know to ask about?

Won't be all that long til I need to do this.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2011, 03:49:35 pm »
Fred or anyone..... who do I call and what phone number to arrange to send my ECU to Guhl, and besides do I want the speed limit removed, what else do I need to know to ask about?

Won't be all that long til I need to do this.


717-618-4212

http://www.guhlmotors.com/

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4126 Oregon Pike
Rear Building
Ephrata, PA 17522


Don will set the speed limiter to whatever you want it to be. I believe the two basic tunes he is doing now are the standard Guhl Tune that opens the butterflies more and makes some fuel adjustments, and the tune with the fuel map set up for a CS1 pipe based on the Autotune files I sent him.

I believe he can individualize your tune just about any way you want it (within reason). So far, he has been leaving the timing tables stock, (which I believe is a good thing) and is only changing the secondary butterfly tables and fuel tables. If you have an aftermarket pipe or other modifications that requires custom modifications to the fuel tables, and you have data output from an autotuner or dyno run, he should be able to make custom adjustments to your fuel tables based on your configuration needs. He also has an in-house dyno and can make a custom map for you on the spot if you take your bike to him.

If you're running the stock exhaust, I'd suggest just having him install the same tune that the rest of us are using, as it has been refined through several iterations now, and seems to be real solid. So the only real decision you have to make is what you want your speed limiter set to (1193 kph ?)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 03:51:25 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2011, 04:43:40 pm »
Thanks, Fred !

Guhl is about 2 hours from me, so an easy ride. I guess I'll just make an appointment when the weather warms up to ride it to them, and let them do it.

Or I might wait until I can get a Muzzy dual exhaust for it, and then take it, and have him dyno it and flash to those results.

We'll see, but at least its close enough it will be easy to do on a weekend or something.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 04:52:37 pm by Privateer »
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