Author Topic: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust  (Read 13500 times)

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Offline Sleach1400

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Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« on: June 25, 2013, 12:09:37 am »
  Well, I am kinda surprised that this hasn't happened by now, and the cost may be the reason, but I just finished installing my Full AREA P exhaust, (excellent fit) and have a date with the dyno at Guhl motors, for 7/2/13, to have a complete ecu tune done.. I plan to have this tune performed on my bone stock (other than exhaust now) 2012 Concours, with 3500 miles on the clock. The tune will start from a baseline PCV map that was provided to me with the exhaust system by Kerry when I bought it, and I will have Don install these values into the ecu. My intent is to use my bike as the guinea pig, for Don to work his magic on, and then have this tune available for sale, along side of his stock bike tune, and slip on tune. This will give those who wish to keep their traction control intact, that "flies out" performance, with a full exhaust, and avoid the PCV route, if so desired. The cost to me will be more than the normal $375 that they get for the regular ecu remap, but I feel that there is many of us out there that would like for this to happen, so we can have another tuning option for the 2010 and newer bikes.

 I'd kinda like to thank Fred for all the work he did getting the original slip on tune up and running with Don, and all the charts, numbers, and help he has provided in the past. :great: This info helped in my decision to go to Guhl.

  I will do my best to follow up with Dyno charts of my own when this is complete, along with ride impressions.  :motonoises:

 This thread is NOT INTENDED to start any ECU tune VS powercommander wars...I know that both have pros and cons.. I have made my decision to go with the ECU tune, because I want to keep my traction control, and do not want to physically remove the secondary flies. The other reason is that I have had complications in the past with 2 powercomanders (zx12r, and zx14), and wanted to avoid the failure point this time. Just because I have not had great luck with them, does NOT mean that they aren't a viable option, and very effective, just my choice/opinion.. I had made my decision to work with Guhl motors months ago when he returned my e mail query nearly instantly, with a very detailed phone call, IMHO great customer service. And I don't believe that Dynotronics even does the concours anymore.


HOPE THIS ALL TURNS OUT WELL! :-\ 

sleach1400
"You just can't teach common sense..
 Nor can you fix stupid..."

2012 Concours 1400, full Area P carbon exhaust system, Shoodaben ECU tune, Project D radiator guard, 1 5/8' bar risers, throttlemeister, Buell pegs, Grip Buddies, The2wheels adjustable levers. Cee bailey ultradome, Phils rack, Laam seat.. To be continued..

Offline Tim Anderson

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2013, 12:38:52 am »
I have the Area P slip on and the Guhl reflash and love the results.  Many thanks to Fred and Don for working to create this a couple years ago, and now thanks to Sleach for providing another option for those with the full system.  You will love the results.  The Guhl tune really unlocks the true low end torque of the 1400.
2010 C14: Guhl reflash, Traxxion AK-20 Forks, Penske shock, Area P slip on, Debadged, Phil’s Rack, FIAMM Freeway Blasters, Laam Seat, Zumo 660, BarEnders, Heattroller, Hyperlites, PR3s, Fender Extender, StarCom Audio, Front running lights, Pinned bags, Vision +100 headlights.

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2013, 01:17:38 am »
I'll be interested to see the final map and see how it compares. Having Don put the bike on his dyno is the best way to get an accurate map for your bike. I wish he were closer to me.
Fred H.


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Offline Sleach1400

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2013, 09:13:17 am »
I have the Area P slip on and the Guhl reflash and love the results.  Many thanks to Fred and Don for working to create this a couple years ago, and now thanks to Sleach for providing another option for those with the full system.  You will love the results.  The Guhl tune really unlocks the true low end torque of the 1400.

This is what i'm hoping for.. We'll see..
"You just can't teach common sense..
 Nor can you fix stupid..."

2012 Concours 1400, full Area P carbon exhaust system, Shoodaben ECU tune, Project D radiator guard, 1 5/8' bar risers, throttlemeister, Buell pegs, Grip Buddies, The2wheels adjustable levers. Cee bailey ultradome, Phils rack, Laam seat.. To be continued..

Offline Sleach1400

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2013, 09:22:26 am »
I'll be interested to see the final map and see how it compares. Having Don put the bike on his dyno is the best way to get an accurate map for your bike. I wish he were closer to me.

Yes, I figured that his dyno would be the best way to an accurate map. He is about a 5 hour drive from me, which is much closer than some.. I will ask Don if he would be willing to send you a copy of the completed map files for comparison.
"You just can't teach common sense..
 Nor can you fix stupid..."

2012 Concours 1400, full Area P carbon exhaust system, Shoodaben ECU tune, Project D radiator guard, 1 5/8' bar risers, throttlemeister, Buell pegs, Grip Buddies, The2wheels adjustable levers. Cee bailey ultradome, Phils rack, Laam seat.. To be continued..

Offline Sleach1400

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2013, 10:49:03 pm »
 Well, I did the dyno run at Guhl motorsports today, and I come away with mixed emotions.

 First of all, Don and Rob are stand up guys, and very knowledgeable. They know their stuff when it comes to the ecu. I guess the only part I am distressed about is the final #'s, that came out to 145 hp and 92.51 lb ft.. I have ridden the bike, and the power down low gained is substantial, due to opening the flies when they should be, and the traction control intervened when the front tire left the pavement  :-\.. But it seems that most people are seeing these gains with the tune, and slip on exhaust, and the full pipe getting closer to 150's, and 100 lb ft.. With some claiming 10 hp better than that.. Are my expectations too high, or is there more to gaining the full potential out of this exhaust? I don't know.. This should make the stock zx14 exhaust guys feel great. This is a much more cost friendly route.

 We did a baseline run, with just the exhaust, and stock mapping, and this run produced 139.97 hp, and 90 tq, with a pig rich AFR. After that run, he installed his slip on tune, and numbers improved, but the AFR was all over the place. Then he spent some time adjusting the fuel curve, and got the 145 hp run. The final AFR #'s are right where they should be for max power.

 I know that I should probably not worry about chasing numbers here, but with some seeing 160 with powercommander, filter      (which I was told was not needed, stock is just as good, or better) and flies removed, with the same pipe, on the same bike, it makes me wonder.. 145 to 160 is an awful big swing, and not likely to be an anomaly. 15 hp, is 15 hp.. LOL. That's 3 times more HP than I gained total.. I gained 5.5 hp dialing in fuel curve from stock fueling.. Don stated that a bone stock bike on his dyno normally nets about 130 to 133 hp. So that would make my total gain approximately 12 hp on an average. Maybe I just need to put on more miles of break in, only having 3300 on the clock.

Not sure if I'm missing something.. I guess I'll just ride it a bit, and see how I like it. If it EVER stops pouring rain!!

 I tried to attach the dyno run showing all these #'s, but it tells me my file is too large.. IDK how to shrink it to post, sorry.
"You just can't teach common sense..
 Nor can you fix stupid..."

2012 Concours 1400, full Area P carbon exhaust system, Shoodaben ECU tune, Project D radiator guard, 1 5/8' bar risers, throttlemeister, Buell pegs, Grip Buddies, The2wheels adjustable levers. Cee bailey ultradome, Phils rack, Laam seat.. To be continued..

Offline Sleach1400

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 11:01:47 pm »
Lets try again...
"You just can't teach common sense..
 Nor can you fix stupid..."

2012 Concours 1400, full Area P carbon exhaust system, Shoodaben ECU tune, Project D radiator guard, 1 5/8' bar risers, throttlemeister, Buell pegs, Grip Buddies, The2wheels adjustable levers. Cee bailey ultradome, Phils rack, Laam seat.. To be continued..

Offline Sleach1400

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2013, 11:04:01 pm »
Smaller..
"You just can't teach common sense..
 Nor can you fix stupid..."

2012 Concours 1400, full Area P carbon exhaust system, Shoodaben ECU tune, Project D radiator guard, 1 5/8' bar risers, throttlemeister, Buell pegs, Grip Buddies, The2wheels adjustable levers. Cee bailey ultradome, Phils rack, Laam seat.. To be continued..

Offline cklamer

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2013, 11:10:42 pm »
Just wondering is their Dyno climate controled?
Is it all in door because weather has a lot to do with dyno numbers if it's open air.
Not an expert but like my Dyno tuner said to me when I told him the numbers people were hitting and he said some Dyno tuners can tweek the dyno runs to make them look better than they really are. Not saying anyone has done this but it can be done.
I have yet to see the print out of the actual numbers of the 161 HP but I believe he has other stuff going on. I believe he is also running intakes from a ZX14 and a high flow air filter.

But I will also post my numbers once I am finished getting everything on and can get it up the road to my tuner.
Mine will be with a PCV and Autotuner.
I will do a Guhl Flash later maybe.

To give you an example I had a Yamaha Midnight Silverado that I put every possible bolt. the stock bike was around 64.2 HP and around 94.6 TQ. After the bolt ons the bike produced an impressive 76.8 HP and 104 TQ. But this included a full exhaust, Dynojet, ported intake, a custom air intake and many other parts.

Offline cklamer

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 11:12:28 pm »
Your fuel to air ratio looks good.

Offline Sleach1400

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2013, 12:15:33 am »
Just wondering is their Dyno climate controled?
Is it all in door because weather has a lot to do with dyno numbers if it's open air.
Not an expert but like my Dyno tuner said to me when I told him the numbers people were hitting and he said some Dyno tuners can tweek the dyno runs to make them look better than they really are. Not saying anyone has done this but it can be done.
I have yet to see the print out of the actual numbers of the 161 HP but I believe he has other stuff going on. I believe he is also running intakes from a ZX14 and a high flow air filter.

But I will also post my numbers once I am finished getting everything on and can get it up the road to my tuner.
Mine will be with a PCV and Autotuner.
I will do a Guhl Flash later maybe.

To give you an example I had a Yamaha Midnight Silverado that I put every possible bolt. the stock bike was around 64.2 HP and around 94.6 TQ. After the bolt ons the bike produced an impressive 76.8 HP and 104 TQ. But this included a full exhaust, Dynojet, ported intake, a custom air intake and many other parts.


Yeah, the room was hardly climate controlled.. 1 big azz fan to keep some air circulating around the room, and 1 smaller fan blowing in the header area. Humidity ranged from 60 to 70%, although it felt like 110%. Temps were in the mid 80's. Not sure what correction factors were used, but Don stated that this particular dyno does not give up numbers easily.. I thought the same about the AFR #'s.. Dunno? ::)
"You just can't teach common sense..
 Nor can you fix stupid..."

2012 Concours 1400, full Area P carbon exhaust system, Shoodaben ECU tune, Project D radiator guard, 1 5/8' bar risers, throttlemeister, Buell pegs, Grip Buddies, The2wheels adjustable levers. Cee bailey ultradome, Phils rack, Laam seat.. To be continued..

Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2013, 03:57:38 am »
These numbers sound pretty realistic to me Sleach... If Don's dyno usually sees around 130hp for a stock C14, then yours at 145hp seems to be a pretty good gain. If your graph had a totally stock run to compare as a baseline I think your final numbers would also seem a little more more impressive to you. AFR does look to be dead nuts on the final run!
Yes... conditions are a HUGE factor in dyno numbers! If the dyno room was about 70deg. with low humidity and high speed fans directed at the ram-air intakes, I guarantee the numbers would be higher. Also, most dyno software packages include a handful of correction factors(uncorrected, std correction, sae correction, etc.) that can alter the final numbers. Your printout shows that the SAE correction factor was used- That is pretty much industry standard, but if that was changed I'm sure the printer could have spit out a piece of paper showing a few more ponies. I remember dynoing an R6 for a guy years ago and he was disappointed with the final results. I told him to hold on a minute and got back on the computer, changed the correction factor, and whala! He instantly gained 10 horsepower- Thanks for all your feedback with this particular C14 experience. Enjoy the new more powerful ride! :beerchug:

***Also forgot to mention... I have seen two identical models put out somewhat significantly different numbers on the same dyno(gsxr1000's varying by nearly 10hp!). Whether it had anything to do with the way they were broken in, maintained, ridden, or simply manufactured is still up for debate... Maybe your bike was built on a Friday when the factory guys just wanted to go home? I'm kidding, but it is interesting to think about- I'm sure these output anomalies & variances occur with a lot of different machines; it just goes to show that for whatever reasons, sometimes one unit will outperform another identical unit ever so slightly for reasons unknown.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 04:40:23 am by LakeTrax »

Offline BudM

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2013, 12:23:06 pm »
 Just out of curiousity divide the cost of items before the changes by the HP you ended up with and put a dollar value to each HP. I just purchased a leftover 2012 C14 and was wondering if its worth my while to mess with it eventually or just leave it stock.

Offline mattchewn

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2013, 12:52:18 pm »

Squeezing more power out of an engine is always either a labor or dollar, (or both), intensive proposition. The problem being that the smaller the engine displacement the harder it is to get more power out on the lower end of the cost/labor scale.  Add to that the fact that almost any mods done to increase power will have a negative impact on fuel efficiency. However, the fun factor can sometimes make up for the loss of MPG. If you are someone that is concerned with your cost per mile average for your vehicle(s) then any mods that do not improve efficiency would not be the way to go. Me I have only added a slip on can and a smaller screen for the summer. The smaller screen seems to help in the MPG department but the symphony of sound from the can is definitely hurting that same department! Smile factor is off the charts though. For me personally, as long as I am able to keep my cost per mile well below that of my gas guzzling work truck I am happy.
Still considering the full Area P exhaust and reflash though! Being able to get 165 hp out of my bike sounds like a lot of fun but is it really worth it in the long run? I have been told by some local shops that the people/companies doing re-flashing of the ECM's are not all they are cracked up to be. I believe in reference to a shop up north and another in the south central area the term they used was crook! I am also considering giving this shop and their dyno the opportunity to prove this as fact with my bike. I would have them dyno my bike as is and then again after I sent out my ECU. I am the first one to admit that opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one. So I don't just accept something like that as fact.I got to admit though it has made me quite curious as to the differences in power gained between competing companies on the ECU tuning end.
Matt
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Offline Sleach1400

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2013, 12:56:33 pm »
Just out of curiousity divide the cost of items before the changes by the HP you ended up with and put a dollar value to each HP. I just purchased a leftover 2012 C14 and was wondering if its worth my while to mess with it eventually or just leave it stock.


I don't really want to do the math on that, it would make me more depressed... In my opinion, the very best bang for the buck is the Guhl flash alone. Getting those flies open quickly makes all the difference in the world in rideability. As far as the rest goes, its more noise, with questionable returns on $$ spent? I wish i had better news to report. Maybe it's just my bike, or a admittedly stingy dyno. I guess I will just ride more, and worry less.. Need to try some roll ons with my buddies Fz1..
"You just can't teach common sense..
 Nor can you fix stupid..."

2012 Concours 1400, full Area P carbon exhaust system, Shoodaben ECU tune, Project D radiator guard, 1 5/8' bar risers, throttlemeister, Buell pegs, Grip Buddies, The2wheels adjustable levers. Cee bailey ultradome, Phils rack, Laam seat.. To be continued..

Offline G

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2013, 04:51:10 pm »
Agree with the dyno operator,130ish hp is normal from a stock C14 from what i have seen on the net. And what you ended up with at 145 is a very healthy gain. I have a hard time believing some people are getting 35hp more with a full system and filter and PC. I would think that is a VERY happy dyno. :rotflmao:

Offline Sleach1400

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2013, 05:09:39 pm »
Agree with the dyno operator,130ish hp is normal from a stock C14 from what i have seen on the net. And what you ended up with at 145 is a very healthy gain. I have a hard time believing some people are getting 35hp more with a full system and filter and PC. I would think that is a VERY happy dyno. :rotflmao:

Thats what i'm beginning to wonder also, but who's to say? I'm not saying that somebody with a dyno sheet saying 160+ is wrong, but who has a properly calibrated dyno?  Everybody says that their dyno is "stingy", thats the grand excuse for the performance not being there. If it reads high, it makes them look like a wizard.. I have a hard time swallowing the monday wednesday friday built bikes are 10 to 15 hp different either.. Red, blue, black or green.. Even silver.. A couple hp variance from bike to bike, maybe, but not that much..

I guess I need to figure out how to plumb some NO2 in the saddle bags to keep pace with all the "ringers" out there. Lol
"You just can't teach common sense..
 Nor can you fix stupid..."

2012 Concours 1400, full Area P carbon exhaust system, Shoodaben ECU tune, Project D radiator guard, 1 5/8' bar risers, throttlemeister, Buell pegs, Grip Buddies, The2wheels adjustable levers. Cee bailey ultradome, Phils rack, Laam seat.. To be continued..

Offline Sleach1400

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2013, 05:14:41 pm »
I have also heard people claim low 140's with just a slip on, and guhl remap. Kinda makes my full pipe seem like a waste..
"You just can't teach common sense..
 Nor can you fix stupid..."

2012 Concours 1400, full Area P carbon exhaust system, Shoodaben ECU tune, Project D radiator guard, 1 5/8' bar risers, throttlemeister, Buell pegs, Grip Buddies, The2wheels adjustable levers. Cee bailey ultradome, Phils rack, Laam seat.. To be continued..

Offline cklamer

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2013, 05:20:12 pm »
Okay the following are case and point on the difference of the Dynos.

2008 C14 with Leo Vince Slip On....... 157HP  :-\       
Starkie's 2008 Concours 14 Dyno Run Leo Vince SBK with Silencer Out


2008 C14 with some other type of slip on exhaust...... 135 HP    :-[         
C14 on the dyno


2008 C14 not sure what this one has.......  138 HP consistent on several runs.
Concours 14 Dyno Run 5th Gear roll on.
   

THIS IS THE ONE THAT LISTS 161.5 HP..........
161.5 HP Dyno run 2008 Kawsaki C14 Full AreaP, PCV, AT, and ZX14 TBs
   


« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 05:24:19 pm by cklamer »

Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2013, 05:38:34 pm »
Guess I'm gonna have to mount me up some PIAA's and crash bars like Starkie's... They've gotta be good for another 10hp! :))

Offline mattchewn

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2013, 05:42:36 pm »
Guess I'm gonna have to mount me up some PIAA's and crash bars like Starkie's... They've gotta be good for another 10hp! :))

I was thinking the same thing! LED's are 2 more HP than halogen right?
Matt
BTW: My SOTP dyno said my connie has way more HP's than yours!
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Offline Sleach1400

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2013, 05:52:36 pm »
Guess I'm gonna have to mount me up some PIAA's and crash bars like Starkie's... They've gotta be good for another 10hp! :))


That sounds like a plan..  Prolly more useful at least, than 10 more hp.
"You just can't teach common sense..
 Nor can you fix stupid..."

2012 Concours 1400, full Area P carbon exhaust system, Shoodaben ECU tune, Project D radiator guard, 1 5/8' bar risers, throttlemeister, Buell pegs, Grip Buddies, The2wheels adjustable levers. Cee bailey ultradome, Phils rack, Laam seat.. To be continued..

Offline Egodriver71

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2013, 05:54:41 pm »
Guess I'm gonna have to mount me up some PIAA's and crash bars like Starkie's... They've gotta be good for another 10hp! :))


That sounds like a plan..  Prolly more useful at least, than 10 more hp.

Paint your calipers red also.

I think that is at least 5hp!!! :)
Thomas Mann
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Offline cklamer

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2013, 05:55:16 pm »
Actually Starkie removed his bags so it was more aerodynamic.  :rotflmao:

OH CRAP! I forgot about the red paint boost.  :great:

Offline Egodriver71

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Re: Guhl ecu tune for Full AREA P exhaust
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2013, 06:05:32 pm »
This goes back to the chasing the dyno reference in another thread.

Ultimately the actual number you get is not what is important.  It is the use of the dyno as a tuning tool for the mods you made.

Comparing one persons numbers on one dyno to another persons numbers on another dyno is the proverbial apples to oranges.

As mentioned elsewhere, the 'correction' factor has a lot to do with it, the environment has a lot to do with it, the gear it was run it has A LOT to do with it.

Keep in mind that any of these runs in anything other than 6th gear for this bike will give you a higher HP number than you're actually producing.

HP is nothing more than a mathematical calculation of the amount of work being done at a given rpm based on the the torque at that rpm.  The lower the 'gear', the more torque multiplication is going on and therefore the higher the HP number.

On these bikes 6th is as close to direct drive we have.




Come out of this knowing that he got you an extra 5ish hp by tweaking your tune to work with the hardware you have!!! :beerchug:
Thomas Mann
Jacksonville, FL

COG #8321

1930 Indian 101 Scout (the first bike)(still in the garage)
1986 Yamaha Radian (the first modern bike)(Sold)
1996 Kawasaki Vulcan 500LTD (the wife's first bike)
1996 Kawasaki Eliminator (Wife's)
1999 Kawasaki Concours (The Warbird)
2006 Kawasaki Vuclan 900 (Wife's)
2009 Kawasaki Concours 14 (Totaled)
2009 Kawasaki Concours 14 (Second Chance)