Author Topic: Gulh Reflash/Area P  (Read 7710 times)

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Offline BS

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Gulh Reflash/Area P
« on: September 28, 2011, 11:10:04 pm »
Anyone out there with an Area P full exhaust done the Gulh Reflash? If so, what do you think? Thanks.

Offline Jon

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2011, 01:38:39 am »
Not trying to hijack your thread, but I'd also be interested to hear about peoples experience with the Guhl Reflash and Area P slip on exhaust.

Offline Texas Concours14

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2011, 01:49:13 am »
I have an Area P slip-on and will be sending Guhl the ECU for a reflash in a day or so.  Will ask for the Fred Harmon CS One slip version (without the insert), since I am guessing this is the best approximation for an Area P slip-on.  Will post how well it works.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 01:52:05 am by Steve »
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Offline Alakso

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2011, 12:11:53 pm »
I've emailed Guhl (and Dynotronics) and asked them what full and slip on exhaust systems they can reflash for the C-14 and for dyno charts for these systems. The Area P full exhaust system with a PCV and map from Fuelmoto with flies out and BMC street filter makes some awesome TQ so I'm hoping a Guhl (or Dynotronics) reflashing can match or exceed these results with the flies in and a BMC street filter. I'll let everyone know what they say.
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Offline BS

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2011, 08:32:04 pm »
If Gulh is familiar with the Area P full exhaust, then I could send my ECU without taking my whole bike to them. They are about 12 hours from Nashville.

I'm hoping they have done a reflash on a full system from Area P. We'll see.

Offline rcannon409

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2011, 09:57:01 pm »
Guys, I dont know if this is the place to ask, but here goes.   I know that when I'm jetting my dirtbikes, no two bikes require the same jetting. Invariably one of the circuits will be off somewhere whether its in the needle, pilot or main.

Based on that idea, when we reflash, or buy a power commander with loaded maps, how close can we expect these maps to match our bikes?  Does the bike itself offer anythign that will help tune these maps for our specific altitude or conditions?   

Ivans Ecu reflash, Brembo front rotors

Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2011, 09:35:50 am »
EFI with an ECU has gotten sufficiently advanced that any two of the same model and sub-model / year will run in pretty much the exact state of tune. You could ride one, park it, ride the other, and not tell any difference. Assuming they are bone stock and have similar miles, etc.

When you changle altitude, the ECU compensates.

I don't know about C14s, but I've had a power commander and full exhaust (etc.) on my ZX14 for a few years. Any other ZX14 on the zx14ninjaforum which has the same modifications as I, with the same model power commander, with the same map, using the same gas, will produce dyno charts so close as to be identical.

Its not like when we used to jet and sync.

The Gulh reflash substitutes microcode in the ECU, so it is essentially a new non-standard ECU. You have to assume they did their homework. Also, if I understand correctly, all the Gulh ECU is doing for the C14 is opening the flies very early (making pulling them unnecessary) and a couple minor tweaks. Are they also providing multiple versions specifically for slipons? That wouldn't make too much sense, because a power commander can easily compensate for the exhaust change and leave the ECU to do its own thing.

Usually, on a ZX14, you can put slipons on and not bother with a power command (piggy). But if you put a full exhaust on, and it doesn't have cats, and has bigger tubes, you probably need a piggy. But the ECU could even, almost, compensate for that because KHI makes the engines run rich to start with.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 09:42:52 am by Privateer »
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Offline ProfessorKonk

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2011, 05:31:03 pm »
Just ordered my ECU reflash from Don Guhl yesterday. . . Guhl's seems to be extremely well sorted-out! I have the Area-P slip-on can on order and mentioned that to Don when discussing my order. He said they have a small tweak to their programming that accommodates the change in muffler design, optimized for my combination of motor, stock headers, and aftermarket can. My impression was that they understand the Area-P product, and that they know way more about the C14 than I ever will!  :motonoises:

IMO the Guhl's ECU solution seems way better than mechanically pulling the 'flies, and I like the fact that I can switch to ECO mode and get back to stock performance parameters. Plus not having to wire anything else into my bike's harness. That's a big win-win!

Should have the ECU back by about Tuesday, and UPS sez I'll get the slip-on by about Friday. Weather allowing I'll wring 'em out next weekend and post my impressions for the forum.
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Offline Tim Anderson

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2011, 08:23:30 pm »
Steve and ProfessorKonk - Looking forward to your impressions after the reflash.  I have an Area P slip on as well and expect to be ordering the Guhl reflash soon, so any feedback will be helpful!
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Offline Texas Concours14

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2011, 11:59:52 pm »
My ECU is on the way to Guhl.  UPS ground takes about a week (!) from Texas to PA, so it wil be about 10 days until I get the ECU back.  Everyone says "wow" about this ECU reflash; I hope to be wowed.
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Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2011, 12:28:59 pm »
Looking forward to first-hand reports !

Considering a 2012 C14 now........
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Offline Beamer

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2011, 02:15:04 pm »
One advantage to the Re-Flash (at least I am assuming) is that they can change the timing. The PC doesn't (I think only on the H-D models they can).

Beyond that, I am concerned with different fuels out there. I live in Minnesota, and we have some of the worst fuel in the country here. Highly oxygenated and low on quality. Head into the Black Hills and the Dakotas you are lucky to find anything over 89 octane (due to the altitude - you don't need as high of octane)

When I moved here in 2006, I had a 2006 FLHX that was built by a very reputable builder in Michigan (where I am from - Bob English @ Gildner's H-D) and the bike completely ripped. When I moved to MN (summer of 2006), I un-loaded the bike (still with MI gas in it) and rode it all day. Topped it off with fuel and it was very, very lean. Eventually I had to get it re-mapped by a shop here to compensate for the fuel. A couple of years later, rode home to Michigan on vacation, and once we got fuel in MI, the thing went mega-rich.

My concern with the re-flash is that there is no adjustment for this after they make their changes. I mean, I am not a PowerCommander lover either (have had numerous issues on my H-D's with them), but you do have some adjustability down the road.

With the re-flash they (whoever does a re-flash) has to either be conservative with their mapping/timing changes or have some kind of local / tribal knowledge they they use for different customers in different parts of the country with different maps.

I think probably the biggest thing that people "feel" with the re-flash is eliminating the restriction put on the ECU with the Secondaries, and that the rest of the mapping is probably close to stock

Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2011, 04:26:01 pm »
The OEM ECU runs the engine rich anyway, to protect it. I doubt if the re-flash will change that.

A PC5 can easily be upgraded to handle timing, with the timing module. And anything A/F related, the map used by the piggy can accomodate.

I am a fan of piggy because if you get a good map, you can basically forget about it, and it will take care of itself. Add the data-logger (Auto Tune) to the PC5, and you modify your map based on the data logged during operation.

If I do in fact end up with a 2012 C14, I will put an exhaust on it and a PC4 with Auto-Tune, AND get the re-flash. Best of both worlds !
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Offline ProfessorKonk

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2011, 04:51:28 am »
Okay. . . Guhl modded ECU impression #1:
Your exact ECU comes back to you, now with an engraved serial number that keys you into Guhl's system for future reference. ECU back in the holder, connectors attached, fuse back into the block, everything else back together. Whole drill takes about 10 minutes. Turn the oven knob to "On". . . the display flashes "F1" for half a second, then gets normal. I shut down and restarted, and everything looked just like "stock". . . no more F1 tickler. Off we go before the rains come back.

Note: still have the stock exhaust at this point.

My initial impression is the bike now starts pulling strongly at lower revs compared to stock. This was not a "holy crap I'm riding a hellfire missile" experience. . . the bike pulls away from a stop kinda like it did before, but now the lazy attitude is replaced by something else within the first 10 feet of travel. Throttle is way more responsive everywhere. Then the rain comes back and I'm heading for the stable 'cause I'm not in the mood for a soaking today. So I got about 3 miles with the new toy today. Work all day tomorrow, but Thursday Friday Saturday and Sunday are supposed to be nice (finally).

My Area-P carbon slip-on should be here by Friday at the latest, so I'll post a more complete writeup as soon as I can get to all this goodness.

FWIW, Guhl's had my ECU in hand last Friday, and it was waiting for me here at home Monday night. Service just doesn't get better than that!
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Offline Stewart

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2011, 02:08:29 am »
I'll be interested to hear what you think once you ride some familar twisties. I have my own thoughts after the flash.
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Offline ProfessorKonk

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2011, 01:30:08 pm »
Yesterday was a spectacular day here in Connecticut's panhandle -- crystal clear skies and temps around 68 degrees, making for a perfect excuse to play hooky and go riding. Now I'll get to find out just what I have with the new Guhl "GUTS" ECU reflash. I am still running the stock muffler at this point, but the Area-P slip-on is due any minute.

As noted earlier, the bike seems to pull away from dead-stop a little stronger. I always found the C14 to be smoothly sluggish to get rolling from 0 MPH, but all would be forgiven once she really started to boogie and pick up speed. Now, with the reflash, the Connie pulls away from a stop with a bit more authority. . . like I've said, not a day-and-night transformation. I never expected the mod to turn this bike into a Hayabusa or V-Max anyway, so I think I can say my expectations were being met as far as first-gear startoffs are concerned. Well, maybe I was expecting just a little more strength, but it is an improvement over stock.

But who wants to run in first gear anyway? Snick the gears through second, then into third. . . now we're really running. It takes me a while to get away from an unusual number of cars on the local roads as I work my way through Ridgefield toward Redding. I finally get to some of the fun roads where I can fool around a bit more without a caravan of cages in the way.

The exhaust note is slightly different at lower revs -- I think. That would be expected, with the secondary 'flies being opened up way sooner in the powerband. Nothing objectionable here, just different. These impressions are really subjective too.

Now I'm running down the wonderful Cain's Hill and Topstone Roads, tight, twisty, typical New England backcountry stuff with some pretty dramatic elevation changes and a couple of great "whoops" where you do go weightless for a moment. Run down past the old Umpawaug schoolhouse, then onto Redding Road. Here on Redding, I usually get about a mile's stretch where I can hit the limiter in 4th gear -- spirit and traffic willing. A few trucks in the way today, but I still get to run it up a bit.

Roll-on acceleration seemed smooth, and happened somewhat quicker than I remembered the stock maps allowed. Again, not a dramatic difference, but what I would categorize as a solid difference, if that makes any sense. There seemed to be a slight flat spot in the powerband at about 4000 - 4500 RPM, then things picked up very nicely above 5000. I tested this thesis a few times, and I think this flat spot at 4000 - 4500 - 5000 is real. Again, this stuff is real subjective since I had never analyzed this much when running in stock form. As you all know, there is no way this bike is not going to put a huge grin on yer face when doing anything over 5000 revs. Such a great engine.

Now I am cutting down into Glen Road, great beautiful sweepies in the woods, getting ready for my favorite part of this loop, the Saugatuck Trail running along the reservoir. This is one of the most scenic roads in this part of CT, just repaved last year, and can become very technical if you get some speed under your wheels. Of course, on a perfect day like today there are plenty of cars out too, so I can't run it the way I'd like to (I don't go crazy fast anyway -- this road has way too much treachery lurking around every bend).

Here was my revelation: throttle response and control were WAY improved over stock. I found I could smoothly dial in and dial back throttle with no "jerkiness" or surging. . . and as a result I felt way more confident than usual. Now that this idea was in my head, I gave it a lot of attention, and I had that impression reinforced over and over again. So I am liking this mapping change a lot at this moment. It is a difficult value to quantify, but the seat-of-the-pants impression is very positive.

Eventually I get on the Merritt Parkway southbound and run like a rabbit. The bike responds well, as it should, and the subjective impression is the bike is responding to throttle inputs just a bit quicker than stock. Again, subtle differences, but positive in my opinion.

So to sum it all up: Overall a subtle but noticeable improvement in throttle response. Pulling away from full stop happens a bit more quickly, but is not a dramatic "ohmygod" improvement. Roll-ons pull strongly, with a very slight (new?) flat spot somewhere near 4000 to 4500 RPM. Over 5000 RPM you are still riding a 740 pound guided missile. In the twisties throttle response and smoothness is vastly improved, and that attribute was my strongest positive impression having done the GUTS mod. Am I glad I did the reflash? Yeah, I think so. Did the reflash meet my expectations? Mostly, although I think I was expecting more power to be released at the very bottom of the powerband. Would I recommend it to my ZG1400 bretheren (and sisteren)? Well, that might depend. . . but I am totally impressed with the throttle control and smoothness attributes I've described. All of the above is based on the first real ride with the new ECU map and I need to ride it a lot more! Which I plan to do every moment I get -- and today is shaping up to be another spectacular New England riding day, so we'll see if I can put the world on hold and go play.

Next, the Area-P carbon slip-on should arrive today or tomorrow. . . perhaps we'll have a new set of impressions since the Guhl reflash was programmed with the slip-on in mind. Stay tuned. . .
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Offline Stewart

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2011, 02:07:13 pm »
Quote
Am I glad I did the reflash? Yeah, I think so. Did the reflash meet my expectations? Mostly, although I think I was expecting more power to be released at the very bottom of the powerband.

Professor,

Thanks for the right up. I think it comes down to expectations and what sort of gains one is looking for. I read a few posts where riders are very happy with 5% increase or 1-2 more HP with other mods, to me that seems pretty much a non event. But with the fly'ectomy I read a wide variation in reports, from loads of low down power...to...power comes on earlier and strong...to...a nice improvement, but jerky throttle and so on.

For me, I was looking for that low down pull the early secondary throttle openings would provide, smoother throttle, and associated fuel map...with out adding more electronics to the bike. And I felt my expectations were met.

But I like'd your opinion of the throttle response in the twisties...this is where I've come to notice the biggest difference. Aside from not having to gear down as much in some corners, I now find I can dial up/down with greater control than before. I don't know if this has to do with the fuel mapping, or maybe that the flies are open 100% and not closing when you get off the gas.

As for the flat spot, I haven't noticed it. I did think I notice a sputter when idling along at low rev's, I'll have to recheck it later tonight when I ride up to Wachusett Mountain in Mass.
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Offline ProfessorKonk

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2011, 02:40:20 pm »
Hey Stewart,

It seems we have more-or-less the same impressions. . . which is a good thing! The "flat" spot I cited really is minimal, and I certainly want to study the effect in more detail as the miles mount up.

The throttle control refinement is a Big Deal to me. I was not necessarily expecting this outcome, but I am delighted!

My slip-on can has just been delivered, literally minutes ago. . . I have deadlines to meet but I know I am ending up in the garage Real Soon Now!

Have a safe ride tonight. . . I know the area, west of Leominster MA "The Pioneer Plastic City"!
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Offline ProfessorKonk

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2011, 11:37:15 pm »
Okay... got my Area-P carbon slip-on can, and it's on the bike.

This is a happy/sad post for me -- happy because I have stumbled upon a fantastic combination of add-ons and mods, thanks in no small part to this supremely cool forum! Sad, because I think I have finally hit the limit in terms of rational farkles to add to my bike! Better to be riding than wrenching anyway!

The Area-P mid pipe and muffler are nicely done and well-packaged from their warehouse. Instructions were fairly straightforward. . . no major surprises here. Installation should have taken about 1 hour, but it took me not quite 3 due to a couple of snags: the stock muffler support bolt just under the left rider footpeg was just about frozen tight. I found this out when I buggered the hex recess to mush! Luckily I had a bolt extractor kit available, so I drilled out the bolt head then wound-in the extractor real tight. I loosened the footpeg bracket to get more clearance to the backing bolt inside the frame, then hit the bolt with a bit of PB Blaster (hold a paper shop towel behind the bolt when you spray this stuff so it won't get anywhere but where you want it). Took a long time to work it loose, but it finally came apart. Real glad this piece does not get reused with the new lighter mid-pipe assembly!

The other time suck involved getting the rubber centerstand bumper off the stock pipes and onto the new mid-pipe. . . the hole on the Area-P mounting tab seemed to have been punched out, and had very rough. sharp edges. I had the idea this might cut through the rubber piece over time, so I did a bit of smoothing with the Dremel. While on this subject, the mounting bracket extender supplied by Area-P features an oblong hole that was punched so roughly that I had to do a bit of filing so the attachment bolt would fit through and ride where it is supposed to. Getting into the nitpicky side of things, I don't understand why manufacturers mix metric hex bolts with SAE nuts. . . not that I wouldn't have a 1/2" box wrench around the garage, but the market is so clearly all-metric?? I'm just saying. . .

Otherwise the slip-on components fit very well.

The Area-P is louder than stock. I measured the stock muffler at 83.0 dB (unweighted scale); the Area-P slip-on measured an average sound pressure level of 89.2 dB. The tonal quality of the exhaust note is in a lower octave than the stock setup, which I think gives the bike more character -- without being obnoxious, the Connie now sounds more like what a motorcycle is supposed to sound like. I like it. When out riding, speeds above 45 MPH generate more wind-related noise than the muffler anyway, so I don't think this will be any issue at all on long rides.

To finally get to the good parts: out on the road, the combination of the Guhl ECU maps and the Area-P were magic. That slight, subjective flat spot in the powerband I mentioned in the earlier post is all but gone. As for thinking there should be more power available between 0 - 3000 RPM, its all there. In fact, pulling away from a stop, revving quickly to 4000 RPM gets this machine hustling! All of the tractability and throttle smoothness I had experienced was still there, now with quite a bit more get-up-and-go and a great resonant, "mature" exhaust tone. There is some deep magic available at over 6000 RPM, so get ready for even bigger speed-eating grins if you go this route. It's a great setup, truly meeting all expectations.

I have to think Guhl correctly anticipates and corrects for a tendency toward the already over-rich stock ECU map when opening up the breathing on this engine. I'm wondering if the map Guhl supplied may have run a bit on the lean side with the stock exhaust, and now it is just right with the less restrictive Area-P? (When I ordered the reflash I specified that the Area-P mid-pipe and muffler were to be part of the equation). When I get the chance I'll write Don Guhl and ask. . . but all I know for now is this is an awesome combination. I was completely enthralled with my Concours in stock form. . . now it is even better, and can be ridden even more confidently, and yes, ridden even faster (or actually, quicker).

"YMMV", but I am having an absolute ball with this combination. Highly recommended.
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Offline Texas Concours14

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2011, 12:12:12 pm »
Thanks for the post Professor.  I am looking forward to getting my ECU reflash in about a week and trying it out with the already installed Area P slip-on on my 2010.  Based on your report, I have high expectations.
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Offline Tim Anderson

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2011, 03:02:49 pm »
Professor - thanks for the update... your earlier post had me a bit worried, since it didn't sound as glowing as the other reflash posts, glad to hear that with the right pipe it is much better!  I'll be having the reflash done soon as well to go with my existing Area P.
By the way, I'm up in the New London area, sounds like you are not very far away, we'll have to get together at some point.  The sound of TWO Area P equipped C14s blasting off would be awesome!
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Offline Stewart

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2011, 03:06:22 pm »
Professor - thanks for the update... your earlier post had me a bit worried, since it didn't sound as glowing as the other reflash posts, glad to hear that with the right pipe it is much better!  I'll be having the reflash done soon as well to go with my existing Area P.
By the way, I'm up in the New London area, sounds like you are not very far away, we'll have to get together at some point.  The sound of TWO Area P equipped C14s blasting off would be awesome!

Tim, I think the variance has to do with the measuring device ,we would need to calibrate everyone's a**-o-meter to get solid comparisons. Its tough to compare without Dyno runs etc.

I'm very happy with stock muffler, and expect to notice the big difference when I hit the track on Monday the 17th in NH. I notice it on the road when I switch Std back to Eco...so I know the improvement is very positive.

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Offline ProfessorKonk

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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2011, 03:39:45 pm »
^^ Hey Tim, yeah, two of these in harmony will sound great! We'll see. . . New London is about 80 minutes from home base, assuming a LOT from I-95! I go diving out of there, always ending the day at Cap'n Scott's Lobster Dock. Deep fry it, and I'll eat it.

^ Stewart, you're right. . . much is subjective when doing these "road tests". I am sure that Guhl loads a different map for stock exhausts than they do for the less restrictive aftermarket stuff, so everybody gets the best benefits possible for their particular setup. There is a lot to be said for the stock muffler, for sure.

Isn't this stuff way more fun than fooling around with jets and needles?  ;D
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Offline Stewart

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  • Aussie living in the USA
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 9380
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Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2011, 04:53:46 pm »
Isn't this stuff way more fun than fooling around with jets and needles?  ;D

Hell yeah, but I'm like you now. Everything is just right...I don't have a need for any more farkles. Although I can't wait for Winter...time to strap some boards on and go rip it up.
Stewart
2010 Concours14
COG 9380

Offline Tim Anderson

  • Mini Bike
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  • Posts: 121
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 9470
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Gulh Reflash/Area P
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2011, 01:08:27 am »
Professor - I go right by Capt Scott's every day on the way to work, I live about 2 miles from there...  Where are you at?  You mentioned in the panhandle, but I'm wondering what town.
2010 C14: Guhl reflash, Traxxion AK-20 Forks, Penske shock, Area P slip on, Debadged, Phil’s Rack, FIAMM Freeway Blasters, Laam Seat, Zumo 660, BarEnders, Heattroller, Hyperlites, PR3s, Fender Extender, StarCom Audio, Front running lights, Pinned bags, Vision +100 headlights.