Author Topic: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock  (Read 10830 times)

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Offline PriapismSD

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Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« on: October 18, 2014, 02:59:33 am »
My 08 has had a problem with the digital throttle response and feeling lean in top gear, not to mention removing the restrictions below 4K RPM.  After $140 in Overnight shipping fees, they got it back to me OK.  I found no real power gains below 4K, despite seeing the dyno chart of the guy that tested it before and after.  It had no real improvement in the fuel cut/digital throttle response off idle, and it detonated under a load pretty bad several times.  I was chalking it up real hot weather last month, but it never went away when the heat wave went away. Worst of all was the jetting was 'loading up' after a trailing throttle.  All the time during lane splitting, when I would slow down under trailing throttle (especially when I kicked it down a couple gears), it would bog big-time when I opened the throttle back up. 

So I spent another $140 in shipping to overnight it to and fro again, for them to put it back to stock. They said they have never had a bike with this problem before.  Only thing I can think of is my bike has "MEDIA" stickers in the bags, so apparently it was from the press fleet, and I wonder if there was some preproduction settings on it. 

For now I am thinking the best best is to get Fuel Moto to make a mapped Power Commander for me, and if I need to I will tweak the map to get the fuel cut issue fixed.  I am tempted to try to get UECUnleashed to make a map since their web site specifically claims to fix the fuel cut on the C14, but it is standard boilerplate claims,  not specifically listing what that bike needs.  When I contacted them about what it can do for this bike and my father's FZ1, they basically just said "sure it will work, just send us money". No customer service to listen to what I am trying to fix, all to sell me an intangible product where you have to trust them. 

I love the sales pitch of all the things they claim a reflash will do, but after wasting all the time and money getting the one that was highly recommended from users only to find it was a waste of time, I am pretty gunshy at trying a new place rather than a tried and true Power Commander, when I can hook my own PC to it or bring it to my local dyno guy to have them work their magic

Offline Flat-spot

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2014, 03:18:06 am »
The way it was explained to me,  a Power Commander does not replace or bypass the ECU, it just fools the ECU into doing things differently.  So if you have a problem with the ECU, the Power Commander won't magically fix it, and you'll just be more upset.
I do wish you the best in getting it solved, because this bike is a blast.
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Offline JS_racer

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2014, 11:15:18 am »
very strange,  :-\
my results after 50k miles without, and 20k plus with, it made a huge difference for me.

PriapismSD sounds like your bike runs like s***, from the post here and the throttle tamer one, not sure what the problem is, but it is not normal.
might want to get it running better before shooting more parts at it to bitch about.  :great:
no clue what your "digital throttle problem" is.


« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 11:22:14 am by JS_racer »

Offline mattchewn

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2014, 11:28:54 am »
I am thinking maybe he has a fuel pump/filter clogged problem like some others have had. That would cause all of the issues he is claiming. No reflash or power commander will cure that!

P,
I would strongly suggest you do some serious diagnostics to find out the problem BEFORE you throw any more cash at "potential" fixes. It sounds like there is certainly something "wrong" with your bike. I would address that first and then look into performance mods.
JMO
Matt

EVERYONE, that I know of that has had a flash done has been very happy with the power gains. It makes absolutely no sense that yours did not improve.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2014, 11:48:40 am »
What we don't know..... Is the OP the original owner?....How many miles?....Has he ever checked the air filter?....Have the valve clearances been checked?....Have the flies been removed?....Has the pair valve hose been plugged?....Have the throttle cables ever been adjusted ?

What the OP has told us....The bike runs like crap and nothing I've done has helped.  ???

Offline mattchewn

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2014, 01:39:50 pm »
G,
Maybe we have another trouble maker? We have been here before y'know! All of two posts and both are knocking someone/something we like here.
Matt
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Offline CW

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2014, 02:51:30 pm »
Guess I'm lucky...my 2010 runs great just like it is. I can't handle anywhere near the bike's full potential, so I am completely happy with the stock performance....I'm guessing it is stock...don't really know for sure, since I bought it used. But there are no Guhl stickers on it, nor any extraneous electronics, as far as I can tell.

Best of luck to the OP in getting things sorted out. Starting over from stock seems like a logical approach, assuming all normal maintenance and repair items have been handled.
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Offline Matter

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2014, 05:09:41 pm »
G,
Maybe we have another trouble maker? We have been here before y'know! All of two posts and both are knocking someone/something we like here.
Matt
It's unfair to call someone who is having an unusual problem a 'troublemaker'.  People can get defensive about a mod or a tuner they like and be biased against other information.  He had a bad experience that he posted about.  That doesn't make him a "Guhl denier".  As another poster suggests, there may be other issues with his bike and those were good questions/starting places to look. 
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Offline Fred_Wa2gzw

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2014, 10:34:59 pm »
He states in the 2nd paragraph that his bags have a media sticker in them so I would guess that he is not the original owner.  I don't know why anyone would assume that he would be a troublemaker, just because the reflash didn't happen to work for him does not make him a trouble maker.  Some ppl need to have a more open mind.

Offline cuda

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2014, 10:57:52 pm »
Well his screen name is... odd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priapism
He's a big DICK :D
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2014, 11:06:02 pm »
All,
I asked a question. That is why there is a question mark at the end of the sentence. There has not been any further posts from him/her since the first one. I ALWAYS assume the best and offered a suggestion as to a possible cause of his issues as well as recommending that the issue be diagnosed and/or repaired prior to spending a lot of money guessing and throwing parts. My mind is far more open than most people both on here and off.
Here is another question; Have we not seen person(s) come on here to start trouble in the same manner as this before?  Here's something odd:  He says he spent 140$ for overnite shipping not once but twice!! I only spent 20$ for overnite shipping. Something seems a bit off here! ?? For $5.85 you can do two day ship.
Matt
I hope he get his issue with the bike figured out before wasting a bunch of money throwing parts at it and then assuming it is something and blaming that with no proof as yet. All the problems he is claiming are pretty much not attributable to a re-flash unless it was done to a defective computer or done by someone with no experience in making fuel maps. Defective computer? possible. Don Guhl not knowing what he was doing? Not likely!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 11:22:13 pm by mattchewn »
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Offline gPink

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2014, 11:23:15 pm »

Offline PriapismSD

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2014, 12:25:36 am »
It runs mucho better now with the reflash un-flashed.  It doesn't load up like before. 

As far as the digital throttle effect, the only EFI bikes I have ridden that did not have that problem were my old RC51 and Aprilia Mille that had a sorted PC.  I am sure I am just real picky about throttle feel. Smaller bikes are not as noticeable, but open-class bikes with shaft drives need to be smooth when you crack open the throttle in midcorner...

I tried the Throttle Tamer a few months back, as it helped the FZ1 a bit, but waste of time with this bike.  I tried pulling the tank, flushing it, checking the fuel pump/pickup, but no sign of dirt or water in there.  Always a good 91octane from my busy station, so I know there are few variables.

I put an Ivans Fuel Cut Eliminator on the 06 FZ1, as it is notorious for the problem, and that helped about 80% of the problem.  But my father has been complaining of weird intermittent problems, Check Engine, stalling etc.  I removed it and it runs better, apaprently they can go bad with age. I have not seen anyone make a similar product for the C14, but for the price of that damn thing, I would prefer a PC5 that I can do more with.

Guhls was pretty surprised there was such a problem, only mods are K&N and a Walker slip on.  They checked it out when I sent it back to see if there was a mistake when it was flashed, but nothing they found.

It still runs well, but the throttle response is not up to my standards, so my next step is a PC5

Offline PriapismSD

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2014, 12:34:36 am »
  He says he spent 140$ for overnite shipping not once but twice!! I only spent 20$ for overnite shipping. Something seems a bit off here! ?? For $5.85 you can do two day ship.


UPS Red Label from San Diego to Guhls was $68 each way, with a call tag included in the box so I can get it back the next day and not be stuck commuting on my KLR longer than I had to.  Which was another point, how the $375 was to include the return shipping, yet they charged me the full price and used my call tag for shipping both times.

Guhl could not figure out why this bike was different, and I am not going to keep spending all my money on shipping back and forth if it is not likely to work. I have little faith that ECU Unleashed could do any better, so I am going with PC5 that I can tweak, as changing the 0% map settings to +5 on a DL1000 helped fix some of the digital throttle problem, and I know it can do more.

Superbikes Unlimited charges $90 for a ECU reflash on a sportbike, with great reviews and a price that is not much of a risk. Not avail for this bike, but makes $375 same silly

The only reason I went to Guhl was because all users on this site seemed to like it and more than one user claimed they regret getting a PC5 after they found a reflash did more for them.  But even though my bike may be an anomaly, I would rather other users thinking of doing these mods be warned of a possibilty

Could be mine is very first production run, could be a fluke. Either way, I am still looking for answers

Offline gPink

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2014, 12:40:26 am »
What is this 'digital throttle effect' and how do I know if I'm affected?

Offline PriapismSD

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2014, 12:45:47 am »
I am thinking maybe he has a fuel pump/filter clogged problem like some others have had. That would cause all of the issues he is claiming. No reflash or power commander will cure that!

P,
I would strongly suggest you do some serious diagnostics to find out the problem BEFORE you throw any more cash at "potential" fixes. It sounds like there is certainly something "wrong" with your bike. I would address that first and then look into performance mods.
JMO
Matt

EVERYONE, that I know of that has had a flash done has been very happy with the power gains. It makes absolutely no sense that yours did not improve.


I flushed the fuel system completely long before the reflash, and not a stray dirt crumb in the tank, etc.  It has always felt a little lean in 6th gear, like they put a fuel economy setting in Overdrive for the freeway, which I find annoying.  With the PC5 able to make maps for each gear, I plan on seeing what I can do.

It is nearing the 100K mile mark so I am due for a valve adjustment in a couple months, but the digital throttle effect has been from day one.  I am curious if CA specific versions are worse than 49 state bikes, but it seem years since the manufacturers have made 2 different versions, and they even put the annoying charcoal canister on all the bikes in the US still

(for those that relatively new, due to EPA concerns the makers set up bike to shut off the injectors.  Ivan's has a recap:  http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/fce.htm  )

Offline PriapismSD

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2014, 12:49:03 am »
Digital throttle feel is when there is a lurch between on and off.  Most noticeable is when going into a corner carrying some RPMs and speed, and as soon as you crack the throttle open it feels like you are going straight to 5% throttle and up, not a smooth transition from off to on.

http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/fce.htm

It is a sales pitch for their product, but a very real problem with EFI bikes

Their FCE helped an FZ1 quite a bit, which is 100x worse than this bike, but I still prefer the feel of good old fashion carbs...

Offline gPink

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2014, 12:54:12 am »
C14 doesn't have a digital throttle. Never heard of this problem. Good luck.

Offline PriapismSD

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2014, 01:57:34 am »
C14 doesn't have a digital throttle. Never heard of this problem. Good luck.


From ECU Unleashed:
Hi T.,
First on the 2008 ZG1400 that can be done same day as long as the file is purchased ahead of time. Then its just a matter if down loading it into the ECU. The on/off throttle you are complaing about is from a fuel cut the the EPA makes the manufacures do that for emissions, will remove it and that will fix you on/off throttle abruptness.
Same for Yamaha
Thanks
Quinten
619-208-9098
Feel free to call me



From their website: http://ecunleashed.com/product/2008-kawasaki-gtr1400-zg1400-concourse-2/

ECUnleashed Performance Reflash

Eliminate Factory Restrictions- Unleash up to 10% more power
Increase Acceleration & Top Speed
Improve Throttle Response & Control

Specifications:
Improve Fuel & Ignition Maps
Eliminate Factory Throttle Restrictions
Optimize Throttle Maps
Eliminate Timing Retard
Increase Rev Limit
Remove Factory Top Speed Limiter(s)
Eliminate Factory Fuel Cut
Optimize Off-Throttle (Decel) Mapping

ECUnleashed performance tune files are tested and tuned for maximum power, performance and drive-ability


Apparently some people are just not sensitive to throttle feel. I am not that lucky.


Offline gPink

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2014, 11:08:22 am »
C14 doesn't have a digital throttle. Never heard of this problem. Good luck.

<snip>

Apparently some people are just not sensitive to throttle feel. I am not that lucky.


Or there is nothing wrong with the throttle to be sensitive to. As I said, good luck finding a solution to your problem.

Offline PriapismSD

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2014, 10:15:21 pm »
So, now I am curious.

Are you saying fuel cut is a myth for all bikes, like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, and selling fixes is placebo/snake oil?

Or are you saying my bike, the 08-09 first year Concours which got EFI for the first time, isn't affected by it because Kawi figured out a way around emissions?  Even though the very fact everyone wants a ECU reflash to begin with shows there were problems with the final product that can be cleared up by aftermarket "race use only" mods?

I assume the current version of the C14 with the traction control and new ECU had benefited from a couple more years of R&D, the same way the '07 and newer FZ1 has less of a problem.   What year is yours that doesn't have the problem?

Offline Bruce_Reafsnider_TN

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2014, 10:40:46 pm »
Have you actually adjusted your throttle cables?  My '08 must have digital cables, whatever that might be......but most definitely cables.  There is a procedure for adjusting the cables.  You might try that before sending off for an ecu reflash.   As far as problems with the ecu, none that I know of.  A major upgrade in the injections system?  Most likely not.  The '08 C14 was a new bike, but it wasn't the first time Kawasaki has put FI on a motorcycle.  If you're set on a PC5, which is a nice addition, I think I'd spring for the autotune as well.  There should be plenty of folks around who already have their maps dialed in pretty well who could get you very close right off the bat.

Offline gPink

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2014, 10:55:23 pm »
So, now I am curious.

Are you saying fuel cut is a myth for all bikes, like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, and selling fixes is placebo/snake oil?

Or are you saying my bike, the 08-09 first year Concours which got EFI for the first time, isn't affected by it because Kawi figured out a way around emissions?  Even though the very fact everyone wants a ECU reflash to begin with shows there were problems with the final product that can be cleared up by aftermarket "race use only" mods?

I assume the current version of the C14 with the traction control and new ECU had benefited from a couple more years of R&D, the same way the '07 and newer FZ1 has less of a problem.   What year is yours that doesn't have the problem?

Living up to your handle aren't you. I don't know you, your bike and I never heard of the problem of which you speak. I have neither called you a lier or your problem a myth but I am beginning to wonder. Once more, good luck with you problems. I sincerely hope you get you issues straightened out.

Offline PriapismSD

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2014, 11:53:22 pm »
Have you actually adjusted your throttle cables?  My '08 must have digital cables, whatever that might be......but most definitely cables.  There is a procedure for adjusting the cables.  You might try that before sending off for an ecu reflash.   As far as problems with the ecu, none that I know of.  A major upgrade in the injections system?  Most likely not.  The '08 C14 was a new bike, but it wasn't the first time Kawasaki has put FI on a motorcycle.  If you're set on a PC5, which is a nice addition, I think I'd spring for the autotune as well.  There should be plenty of folks around who already have their maps dialed in pretty well who could get you very close right off the bat.

I am very picky about throttle cable slack.  I have limited range of motion in my wrist, no degrees of rotation to spare, even though I put the Tamer on there. It is amazing how many bikes have excess slack in the throttle cables.  When I was working for an MSF course, the Buell Blast bikes ALL had horrible slack, which makes the  horrid pickup and clutch friction zone on that bike feel even worse, which is not a good condition for noobs.  No one but the dealer mechanics are allowed to do maintenance on the bikes, and they clearly phone it in, so lets just say as I was rolling them into the trailer at the end of each day, they could not see what my hand was doing on the bars...


I am about to contact Fuel Moto that says they can help tune a map for you out of the box, and they claim they can help this problem.  After trying that, if it is not much better than before, I will buy the O2 kit and make my own map or maybe have my local Dyno shop make one for me.  I  keep thinking of having another shop reflash it for me since the lure of derestricting it still sounds so nice, but if Guhl can't see a fix for the problem I do not see ECU Unleashed having any better luck. Plus, worst case the PC5 doesn't work around the fuel cut, I can sell it on eBay and recover my money, unlike a flash

Either way I will post my results of throwing parts at it, if any other owners of an 08 run into the same problem.

Offline cuda

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Re: Had a Guhl reflash, just had them put it back to stock
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2014, 12:55:17 am »
Do you still have the secondary flys in ? the whole reason most people have the flash is to open the secondary flys sooner, not the new map,
Seems strange  these bikes are known to run rich, from what I heard all Guhl does is remove 10% fuel and open the flys a lot sooner  , if you don't have your secondary flys in I guess you would not feel much of a difference .
Detonation ? I've never heard of anyone having a detonation problem , I have a 500 gal gas tank at my shop with 87 that I use from time to time and I've never had detonation.
You said you thought the hot weather might  have had something to do with it?
I've raced boat's for 30 years and when it's hot and humid we take fuel away, cool and dry add fuel.
Have you ever checked the color of your plugs ? When at a race we use a weather station to set the ECU then check the plugs after a few test runs to fine tune. ??????????????????   
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