Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Accessories C14 => Topic started by: Samuel on August 13, 2012, 09:24:40 pm

Title: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Samuel on August 13, 2012, 09:24:40 pm
Has anyone performed HID install with these lights?

http://eshop.ktautopart.com/motorcycle-hid-projector/kawasaki-hid-projectors/kawasaki-1400gtr/kt-mt5.html (http://eshop.ktautopart.com/motorcycle-hid-projector/kawasaki-hid-projectors/kawasaki-1400gtr/kt-mt5.html)


I'm about to perform the install in a couple weeks.  Looks like the Headlight cover needs to be open to do the install. Has anyone open the cover? How complicated is this? Thanks in advance for all responses. All advice is welcome.
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 13, 2012, 09:48:46 pm
I know there are some that would disagree with me, but I am against retrofitting any vehicle with HID's that were not originally designed with them.

The reason is that the reflectors are not designed to properly deal with the light outputs of the HID bulbs and as a result, unless you aim them WAY down, they tend to blind oncoming traffic..
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 13, 2012, 10:39:12 pm
Read the post again Marc, he is going to refit the headlight housing with projector units that use HIDs, not put HIDs in the stock reflector buckets. It is not just changing the tungsten lamp for an HID in the same reflector. In fact it is not a reflector at all but rather a projector.

Brian

I know there are some that would disagree with me, but I am against retrofitting any vehicle with HID's that were not originally designed with them.

The reason is that the reflectors are not designed to properly deal with the light outputs of the HID bulbs and as a result, unless you aim them WAY down, they tend to blind oncoming traffic..
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 13, 2012, 10:49:49 pm
I have not used those projectors but have retrofitted projectors into other headlight housings.

The lenses are attached to the buckets with some type of rubbery adhesive that never really hardens fully. Headlight assemblies were never intended to be taken apart, in fact it is a requirement of DOT that headlight assemblies are NOT to be serviced or even be serviceable. I do not mention this to say that a retrofit is a bad thing, merely to point out that headlight housings were not intended to be worked on.

The usual way to open headlight housing is to put it in an oven (!) and warm it to something like 250F to 275F so that the adhesive softens. Once up to temp. take the housing out of the oven and use two flat tools (thick putty knives or wide blade screwdrivers) to gently pry the lens away from the housing. Work it slowly and a little at a time or the lens will crack. DO NOT put the housing in the oven with the lens down on the oven rack! Put a layer of aluminum foil under the housing and keep the lens from touching anything while in the over. When you work on the housing, wear welding gloves or oven mitts on your hands so you do not burn yourself. You have to hold the assembly basically with your hands while working on it as you cannot grab it in a vice or anything similar- it helps to have another set of hands available to help while doing this (two people can destroy things four times as fast as one person).

I am working on trying to procure a used headlight housing and intend to refit it with the largest bixenon projectors I can squeeze in there- A46 Audi or Mercedes projectors would be outstanding but I do not think there is sufficient depth behind the lens to do that.

Best of luck with your project and please do let us know how it goes.

Brian


Has anyone performed HID install with these lights?

[url]http://eshop.ktautopart.com/motorcycle-hid-projector/kawasaki-hid-projectors/kawasaki-1400gtr/kt-mt5.html[/url] ([url]http://eshop.ktautopart.com/motorcycle-hid-projector/kawasaki-hid-projectors/kawasaki-1400gtr/kt-mt5.html[/url])


I'm about to perform the install in a couple weeks.  Looks like the Headlight cover needs to be open to do the install. Has anyone open the cover? How complicated is this? Thanks in advance for all responses. All advice is welcome.
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 13, 2012, 10:59:20 pm
Read the post again Marc, he is going to refit the headlight housing with projector units that use HIDs, not put HIDs in the stock reflector buckets. It is not just changing the tungsten lamp for an HID in the same reflector. In fact it is not a reflector at all but rather a projector.

Brian


<genuine Curiosity> What's the difference?  </genuine curiosity>
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 14, 2012, 12:12:05 am
Oy vey! You are opposed to him doing this and you don't know what he is doing? C'mon Marc, you are supposed to learn first, form an opinion second and hate third. Doing that out of order makes you seem..... mashugana.  ;)

Too much wine in me now to write a primer on headlights tonight. I will jot down something tomorrow- I promise. No, really. Honest.

Brian



Read the post again Marc, he is going to refit the headlight housing with projector units that use HIDs, not put HIDs in the stock reflector buckets. It is not just changing the tungsten lamp for an HID in the same reflector. In fact it is not a reflector at all but rather a projector.

Brian


<genuine Curiosity> What's the difference?  </genuine curiosity>
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 14, 2012, 12:39:46 am
LOL,

I just thought all HID kits were the replacement bulbs and that the bulbs were called Projectors and that is what was blinding traffic (and what I had a problem with), from your post I am starting to think this is not the case so I am curious about what the difference is.

Wine is always a good excuse, I think I will go have some myself now :)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 14, 2012, 02:33:35 am
Not true my friend, HIDs in and of themselves are not evil and do not cause problems for other drivers. I am very well aware of the cut- off line my lights produce and always keep it out of oncoming traffic's eyes. I think you are confusing 18 year old 'farkles' badly installed with real improvements in the forward illumination of a road vehicle.

Good lighting does not mean blasting everything in front of you with uncontrolled light emissions. Good lighting is illuminating the road in the distance, keeping the cut- off line down below oncoming driver's eyes and when it really works well, blasting 60 % or better of the light available down the road (not in oncoming driver's eyes). Bad lighting is light blown everywhere out of the front of a vehicle and is done in the poorest taste imaginable

Seriously I will give you a primer on headlights 101. It is not as simple as it at first seems (HID kits are 'bad', tungsten lighting is 'good'). But is that not the beauty of life? To figure out what is chaff and what is wheat?

Brian


LOL,

I just thought all HID kits were the replacement bulbs and that the bulbs were called Projectors and that is what was blinding traffic (and what I had a problem with), from your post I am starting to think this is not the case so I am curious about what the difference is.

Wine is always a good excuse, I think I will go have some myself now :)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 14, 2012, 03:50:17 pm
Headlights come in two basic designs: reflectors and projectors. The more common are reflectors because they are less expensive and simpler both to build and to maintain (although maintenance on headlamps is actually illegal but I digress).

Reflectors are the chrome looking buckets with the headlight lamp or HID burner in the middle. The downside of that design is that only about 25% of the light ever makes it forward and out of the housing. The lamp itself basically radiates light in all directions but that must be shaped and controlled to get an acceptable beam shape and limit the light's projection upward. All headlights have a 'cut off' line above which no light should radiate; of course that is impossible but the light radiated above the cut off line is really quite low and will not blind (or 'dazzle') oncoming drivers. The modern reflectors are actually excellent in this regard. Back to reflector design: so any light radiated forward from the bulb must be stopped and this is done either by coating the front of the lamp itself with an opaque coating, or covering the front of the lamp with a metal dish. There goes 1/2 of the light produced from the lamp due to the shielding. You would think that the rest of the reflector could all be used to reflect light forward from the lamp but that is not the case; it is difficult to reflect the light from the lamp that hits the bottom of the reflector forward without 'spraying' some of it upward and weakening the sharpness of the cut off line. Plus it is the bottom of the headlight (in a two- filament headlight such as on the C-14) that is used for the high beam so the design is to produce a broad beam with no cut off line (which is why high beams illuminate the tree tops in front of you- useless light output for the rider / driver of the vehicle). So the bottom of the bulb is also shielded on the low beam filament so that light does not leave the housing either. Now we are down to about 25% of the lamp's output which shines basically up and back from the lamp and is reflected forward by the reflector above the lamp. It can make a nice quality headlight but as you can see, pretty inefficient.

The obvious fix to all of that would be to use the reflector to project a column of light forward and then just paint or shield the front of the lens to create a cut- off line. But that will not work because the shield is too close to the reflector to create a sharp cut off and the light output is pretty much uncontrolled, resulting in too much glare and a lousy beam control. Again, remember the objective is always to get as much light down the road and to the sides of the road as possible without emitting any more light than absolutely necessary above the cut off line, preferably none at all although that is impossible.

Fortunately there are clever people out there and they have worked out a much better solution. They were mechanical engineers who took a wrong turn in their careers and ended up designing optics but at least something good fell out of that debacle.

What they did was to get much better control over that beam being emitted from the light in the first place. That is done by making the reflector much deeper and smaller in diameter. But it still yielded a poor cut off line so better control yet was required- that is usually done with light by using a lens. So a deep reflector (shaped like a parabola although now they are generally free- form shapes) aims and focuses all the light coming from the back of the lamp and focuses it through a large lens (between 2 1/2 and about 5" in diameter). Now another really useful thing happens here; as the light is focused, it is brought down to a pretty small cone just like a magnifying glass does. That has two advantages; the first is that a shield can be put right at that light cone crossing point and yield an amazingly sharp cut off line. The second is that about 1/3 of the light coming from the front of the lamp can also be focused and shone forward under that shield. The result is something like 55% or more of the available light can be pushed forward and the shape and control of that beam are fantastic. The cut off line is spectacular.  One more thing- to make a single lamp produce both high and low beams, we need to do something with this headlamp type besides using two filaments as that won't work (there is no reflector or lens left over to be used just for the high beam). The answer is to make the shield move; the shield is what creates the cut off line in the first place so when it is moved out of the way, a round beam is projected instead of a 1/2 round beam. The designers can even tinker with that to our advantage- they can move the 'hot spot' (brightest area of light output) around independently of the shield position and hence the cut off line. So what they usually do is to put the hot spot just below and in the center of the light's output so it sneaks just under the cut off line. That way you have the greatest amount of light being used directly in front of you and as far down the road as possible being just below the cut off line. Pretty slick.

Those types of headlights are called projectors- they were invented well over 100 years ago and used to project images and eventually moving pictures onto a screen. They are still used to this day in movie theaters and even home large screen projection type video units.

Now, it is possible to take a reflector type headlight assembly, hack the lens off the front, and hack a couple of big holes in the back, epoxy projector housings in the back of the housing and viola! projector headlights in what was reflector housing. That is what the OP was asking about. I do not know how great the quality of $160 projectors can be but they are almost certain to be better than the original reflectors on the bike.

The very best projectors I know of are the large diameter HID projectors from Hella (which is where I think the kids get the expression 'Hella good' because Hella really does make outstanding products.... but maybe not) found as OEM in high end German cars. A pair of bixenon (the kind where the shield moves to create both high and low beams from the same lamp and optics) 46 series projectors correctly timed (the cut off is not level but has a shape, either a "Z" shape or an E- type so rotation timing is critical) and pointed would make about the best headlights possible in my opinion. As I said, I am working on procuring an old, dead headlight housing right now in an attempt to do that very thing to my bike- it would go a long way to taming the fear of the critters walking around in the grass next to the highway in Montana.  But I digress....

As to the legality, modifying the headlights on a DOT approved vehicle is simply illegal in the US. And changing the entire headlight assembly, even for one that is BETTER and SAFER is also illegal. Being illegal does not make it a bad idea though.

One last thought- the blue headlight craze that is on now, especially with kids, was started by German HID projectors. They appear to be quite blue at times when they are coming at you. They are in fact purely white light. Mercedes Benz has far too much self respect to put colored headlights on their vehicles (yellow lights as required by French law accepted). What you are seeing is an optical quirk called refraction- basically the white light of the lamp contains the entire spectrum of colored light but only the shortest wavelengths of light can 'sneak' over the edge of the shield. Basically what is happening is that the shorter wavelengths of light, the last of which is blue- to- purple and the last one stopped by the shield. If you shine properly designed, properly functioning HID projector headlights at a white surface such as a garage door, you will see pure white light everywhere except for a very thin blue line right at the cut off line. This is the band of blue that oncoming traffic sees as the car with the projectors bounces up and down as it moves toward you; you are seeing just the edge of the cut off line and most people think the car has blue headlights but it DOES NOT. Unfortunately people do not produce true blue headlights in an effort to sell them to people who want to have their car look like expensive European types. They do not and they often make a mess out of the headlight beam. Further, blue headlights are a distinct disadvantage when trying to see at night- pure white light or even light tinged toward yellow make the best and safest illumination.

And a word about just putting HID lamps into reflector housings made for tungsten lighting. It is not really a good think or a bad thing, it varies tremendously in each application and is also dependant on the adjustment of the height of the cut off line. In my opinion, HID lamps in C-14 housings really are excellent and I would give them an 8.5 or even a 9.0 out of 10 in beam quality and safety. A pair of HIDs in Ford Expedition housings though is beyond terrible, again in my opinion. The cut off line is total gone and the beam shape.... well, the beam has NO shape other than globs and blobs of light shooting out 'here and there'. They are truly terrible both for the driver using them as well as anyone outside the vehicle who thinks he / she has just seen the sun up close. So while we have all seen some really atrocious headlights coming at us, and I think it is getting worse and even more common unfortunately, we do not have to paint all retrofits as awful. It has to be done on a vehicle by vehicle basis IMO and if it does not work out the HIDs should be removed from those housings.

Brian



<genuine Curiosity> What's the difference?  </genuine curiosity>
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Gypsy JR on August 14, 2012, 04:06:13 pm
I put true HIDs in my ZX14 from DDM Tuning, and had to seriously change the adjustment nuts to get them down to acceptable pointing.

Once I did, nobody flashed me about my lows, but they sure would on my highs. Perfect.

So much light, coming from the American Legion at night in the mountains near Cascade MD, I only needed my low beams. This area was totally black, not a house, or streetlamp, or anything for miles.

It was fun riding it in the dark, I could flip on the highs and see them illuminate upcoming corners like it was daytime.
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 14, 2012, 04:16:36 pm
WOW,  that's one hella informative write up!

I never knew there were 2 kinds of lamps (Proj/refl) I thought all headlights were reflector types and HID bulbs were called projectors...   My issue is with the kids who retrofit their Ford Explorers with HID kits, I never considered that some reflectors would be suitable for this while others are not.

So in your (considerable) opinion the C-14 reflectors are good with HID's...  Is there anything special one needs to do in order to adjust them properly, or just pop in the HID bulbs, mount the ballasts, wire it up and ride??


And a word about just putting HID lamps into reflector housings made for tungsten lighting. It is not really a good think or a bad thing, it varies tremendously in each application and is also dependant on the adjustment of the height of the cut off line. In my opinion, HID lamps in C-14 housings really are excellent and I would give them an 8.5 or even a 9.0 out of 10 in beam quality and safety. A pair of HIDs in Ford Expedition housings though is beyond terrible, again in my opinion. The cut off line is total gone and the beam shape.... well, the beam has NO shape other than globs and blobs of light shooting out 'here and there'. They are truly terrible both for the driver using them as well as anyone outside the vehicle who thinks he / she has just seen the sun up close. So while we have all seen some really atrocious headlights coming at us, and I think it is getting worse and even more common unfortunately, we do not have to paint all retrofits as awful. It has to be done on a vehicle by vehicle basis IMO and if it does not work out the HIDs should be removed from those housings.

Brian



<genuine Curiosity> What's the difference?  </genuine curiosity>
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Samuel on August 14, 2012, 06:41:35 pm
Guys thank you for the advice. BDF much thanks. Not really forward to putting my lights in the oven, but if that is what's required. That is what I'll do. I may look for a light housing online before I do the job. I'll give it a couple weeks if I don't find one I'll go ahead a pull mine and in the oven it goes. So again thanks for all the help. Any other guys have ideas on opening the headlight enclosure?
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 14, 2012, 07:58:06 pm
Thanks but optics and quality lighting is one Hella of a subject. Seriously, just the technology involved in a low voltage HID lamp (correctly not a lamp but a 'burner') is impressive. There is really a little arc inside the burner that produces the light- it is a very bright, very white but low power version of the arc a welder generates.

I find the C-14 housings are very good with HIDs. Not quite excellent because they do spill more like up and to the right that I would like (it is done to illuminate highway signs but it can be pretty hard on truckers because they sit so high- I do not linger next to them and so try to avoid exposing them to the light any more than I have to). But the beam pattern is very good, and the cut- off line remains crisp. One thing to keep in mind is that it really helps NOT to splash light above the cut off line if the headlight lens is kept clean. When traveling long distances when the windshield gets dirty enough to require cleaning at the next fuel stop, I always take a moment and wash the headlights also. It is a good idea anyway but I think it is much more important when using HIDs because they are so bright that a dirty lens can really cause a lot of light splash.

I think that we should all be responsible and reasonable regarding headlights because they effect everyone near us on the road, especially those coming toward us. We all want as much light as possible but that should not be an excuse to make a mess of vehicle lighting and blind and annoy everyone in the process. I am especially opposed to the blue lights currently available (and illegal- the highest temp. lighting legal in the US is just over 5,400 Kelvin, some HIDs are now over 12,000 Kelvin). Some housings just should not be refitted with HIDs because they cannot control the light- Fords seem to be particularly bad at this although certainly not the only ones. Also, a LOT of headlights are misadjusted and point much too far up- motorcycles are often guilty of this, especially those types with the three headlights, two of which are not shielded in any way and therefore again illegal. A huge misconception of vehicle lighting is that the brighter things appear to the driver, the better the lights. That is not true and is usually it is the opposite. Think about it for a moment: you want to light the road surface as far forward and as brightly as possible to see objects / beings in the road at the greatest possible distance. But often very bright but poorly controlled headlights light up things much too high to be useful and because these things are so bright to the driver, it actually makes the pupil close down and makes downrange vision even worse. American high beams are particularly terrible at this as they light up signs, trees, and everything else and create so much light reflected back at the driver that while it seems like they are doing a good job (hey, it's really bright in front of me, right?) they are actually causing our eyes to be far less able to see that brown deer 200 yards down the road. And the deer is what we are really concerned about, not the mailbox reflectors out there glowing like nuclear piles.

Good vehicle lighting is difficult to achieve and expensive. Good projectors are complicated and difficult to manufacturer- they have a very thick piece of glass and the reflector portion is extremely smooth and reflective.... much more so than typical reflector buckets. Sad to say Europeans, especially Germans, led the way to good lighting long before anyone in the US was paying attention. Our lighting has gotten better, much better in the last 15 years or so and continues to improve but the stuff found on high end German autos is still far better. Some Japanese products are also very, very good (Lexus lighting is often excellent) but not quite the equal of that found on Mercedes, Audi and Porsche in my opinion. The reason is simple: the bigger the light housing, the better the light (both projector as well as reflector types) and the German projectors are simply larger.

Brian


WOW,  that's one hella informative write up!

I never knew there were 2 kinds of lamps (Proj/refl) I thought all headlights were reflector types and HID bulbs were called projectors...   My issue is with the kids who retrofit their Ford Explorers with HID kits, I never considered that some reflectors would be suitable for this while others are not.

So in your (considerable) opinion the C-14 reflectors are good with HID's...  Is there anything special one needs to do in order to adjust them properly, or just pop in the HID bulbs, mount the ballasts, wire it up and ride??

Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 14, 2012, 08:07:19 pm
Thanks again Brian :)

I was actually considering the HID's on my bike a while back before I realized I was being blinded by conversion kits and learned that the reflectors were not up to HID lighting..  I may revisit this now because I think the headlights on my 14 are terrible even with the upgraded Murph's bulbs.... Just can't see S#%* at night :(   (I have adjusted them, they came pretty much pointing at the ground from the factory)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 14, 2012, 08:15:48 pm
HIDs are really quite inexpensive, at least the Chinese retro versions, which are getting better as time goes by. You can get a full set of bi- xenons from someplace like DDM tuning for something like $60 or so.

Brian

Thanks again Brian :)

I was actually considering the HID's on my bike a while back before I realized I was being blinded by conversion kits and learned that the reflectors were not up to HID lighting..  I may revisit this now because I think the headlights on my 14 are terrible even with the upgraded Murph's bulbs.... Just can't see S#%* at night :(   (I have adjusted them, they came pretty much pointing at the ground from the factory)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Pistole on August 14, 2012, 10:17:37 pm
.

- Brian : is a HID kit pretty much plug and play for a C14 ? Or splicing required ? And are the stock power feeds for the headlights up to the job for HIDs ?

thanks

.
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: JimBob on August 15, 2012, 04:42:25 pm
.

- Brian : is a HID kit pretty much plug and play for a C14 ? Or splicing required ? And are the stock power feeds for the headlights up to the job for HIDs ?

thanks

.

First, serious kudos to BDF for such great write-ups. I'll be bookmarking these for friends when they ask-makes it a LOT easier for me!

Generally speaking, HID requires less power for the same light output as conventional bulbs (since some of the power going into a conventional bulb is emitted in a non-visible wavelength, i.e. heat).

I've put cheap chinese kits on a number of vehicles (and taken them off a couple where the pattern is terrible...I'm lookin' at YOU, FORD!). So long as you aim the lights afterwards (and it's a good design on the reflector and lense) they can work out very well. I always use 4300k or "lower" lights (better color-more like natural daylight). Even 4300k can be on the white side - I may experiment with some lower numbers now that I have multiple vehicles.

HID in my C10 is fine (on low beam), but I really had to lower the aim. High beam is, well, typical high beam-splatters light everywhere. On low, the cutoff line is REALLY apparent. When I first put the HID in, I didn't have time to aim it. It was like driving around with the high beam on (lighting the trees) and people flashing me. I aimed it the very next day, and it's completely different.

I used a car system (comes with 2 ballasts and two bulbs), for $60 on Ebay (look for a seller called orangemika). Not the easiest approach - kits made for bikes are a little easier. Had to take the fairings completely off to figure out where to route wires, and had to re-wire the kit a little (basically simplify it so there were fewer and shorter wires ).
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 15, 2012, 06:15:57 pm
The kits I have seen do not require any splicing but they do require connections to the battery to power up the HIDs. I split the difference and ran the hot lead (+) to the battery but connected the ground wire to an unused threaded hole forward on the frame. It was easier than running both wires and I figure the 50 lbs. of aluminum frame ought to be able to handle 10 amps of current. :-)

Just my opinion but I believe stock H4 wiring would be up to powering 35 watt HIDs. They do draw considerably more current than stock H4s do when first turned on but the current draw drops rapidly until it is below what stock bulbs use (my ballasts draw about 42 watts each to power 35 watt HIDs).

Brian

.

- Brian : is a HID kit pretty much plug and play for a C14 ? Or splicing required ? And are the stock power feeds for the headlights up to the job for HIDs ?

thanks

.
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 15, 2012, 07:41:34 pm
Brian,
What is your opinion on the kits that have the High/Low via a motorized shutter..  I remember hearing they weren't very reliable but I am now hearing that they are very reliable..  Also how often have you had your bulbs go out on your conversion??

THanks :)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 15, 2012, 08:35:24 pm
There were some early HIDs that tried to imitate the behavior of the two filaments of an H4 lamp by using a butterfly shutter that opened and closed underneath the glass lamp of the HID and there were simply terrible. Atrocious. Unusable for high beams in my opinion.

H4's have two filaments; one is higher and further forward then the other one. One is for low beam and shielded on the bottom with a small piece of metal inside the glass envelope, while the forward and upper filament is for high beam and not shielded at all. The entire headlight is designed on the exact locations of each of these filaments and the placement of the filaments is held to very precise tolerances. So the shutter type substitute had no chance of working because the arc of the HID never moved, it was just unshielded- the resulting high beam pattern was terrible.

The only method used now that I am aware of is a solenoid activated movement of the lamp itself. If is back for low beam, and moved forward for high beam. It is not perfect on high beam still though because it would have to be raised a bit to be in the exact right spot. That is why the beam pattern of HIDs in C-14 housings is a bit small from top- to- bottom. The bottom is OK but the top of the light pattern could be higher.

The reliability of the Chinese HIDs has improved quite a bit. I had one bulb and one ballast fail on the original set of HIDs I installed in either '07 or '08 (don't remember which). The current set has been in there for quite a while now, at least three years, with no problems, and maybe it has been four years.

The good news is that even with HIDs in place, you can change either (or both) lamps out for stock H4's quickly and easily. I always carry a spare H4 with me when I travel (as I think everyone should regardless of what type of bulb is being used) and can easily replace either HID on the side of the road.... in the dark (literally). There is no modification to the bike when going to HIDs so the original bulb connectors are still up front just waiting to be plugged into a lamp (a stock H4) and all switches, wiring, etc. works just as it always did.

One other point: HIDs are rather more economical if you use them a lot than tungsten lamps over the course of time if you ride a lot. They last a long time compared with tungsten bulbs. As we all use headlights anytime we ride, even during the day, it will make a noticeable difference in how often you have to service the lamps. It is not a big deal either way and I would not promote that as a reason to go over 'cause the Chinese HIDs are probably still not the very best in quality but it is a nice thing to add should someone go over to HIDs for other reasons.

Brian


Brian,
What is your opinion on the kits that have the High/Low via a motorized shutter..  I remember hearing they weren't very reliable but I am now hearing that they are very reliable..  Also how often have you had your bulbs go out on your conversion??

THanks :)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 16, 2012, 02:54:16 am
Thanks man :)

In your opinion..what would be a good kit for the 14?
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 16, 2012, 10:09:07 am
DDM Tuning has an H4 bi-xenon (high / low beam) two bulb kit that seems the same as everyone else's at an excellent price.

I really do believe all Chinese HIDs are made in the same factory; they all look the same and the parts interchange. They seem to conjure up a lot of different names and color schemes for the boxes the kits come in but otherwise I think they are identical.

Brian

Thanks man :)

In your opinion..what would be a good kit for the 14?
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 16, 2012, 12:18:43 pm
Man I am on their website and it's CHEAP!!

I can get an H4 Dual (high/low) kit for like 60 bucks...  Just need to decide what color temp I want (I want white so I assume 4500k would be ok....

And need to decide if 35W or 55W is ok..  I assume the 55W would be too much for the bikes reflectors to handle (Too much light splashing around etc)



Meethinks i'm going to give this kit a try :)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: JimBob on August 16, 2012, 05:07:24 pm
4500k and lower is more like natural light/conventional bulbs. As Brian noted, getting toward the yellow end of the spectrum is better than the super white (you can really see the difference in how it reflects).

There are charts and sample photos on the web showing the difference between the different bulbs.

As I mentioned, that's about the range I use (4300k-4500k), and they're comfortable.
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Gypsy JR on August 16, 2012, 05:48:19 pm
I had 35W 6000k in both high and low on my ZX14, and it was a bit blue, but it sure did kick out the light. It could illuminate a corner 1/4 mile away coming down a mountain forested road with no other lights for 10 miles around like it was daytime.
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 16, 2012, 08:24:02 pm
Pure white, or as close as HIDs can get (they miss significant portions of the light spectrum so they cannot really produce true, pure white light) occurs at 4,100K. That is what all the OEM manufactures make- Philips, Osram and GE. Also that is the color that produces the greatest output of light- moving higher or lower will always result in less light output from the same power input. I use HIDs in the 4XXX range as available (sometimes 4,100, sometimes 4,500, whatever that particular mfg. offers).

35 watt HIDs put out about 3,100 lumens, which is over 3X what a high performance H4 tungsten bulb will deliver (1,000 lumens, governed in the US by DOT). 55 watt HIDs must be truly impressive although I have never seen a set as far as I know, and I have never used a set. They <might> be OK in a C-14 housing but again, I suggest using a reasonable approach if you try them- put them in the bike, adjust the cut- off line correctly (so that it points slightly down, I believe it should be 2 1/2" lower at 25 feet or something similar), stand in front of the bike and look at the headlights. Move your head down to just above the cut- off line where other drivers will be and see if the light is annoying, blinding or glaring. If so, then I would say 55 watts is too much for these housings.

By the way, 55 watt HIDs are too bright for max. headlight output according to DOT; nothing to do with aiming or housing type, they just produce more light than is legal in the US. Again, I would test it out for myself and use reason and a little consideration for others rather than exactly conforming to the letter of any law but I think they might really be a bit too much for low beam use where there is other traffic. Off road however, too much is just right and those burners in a high performance housing like a Soltek will probably burn the retinas out of small animals in the next time zone. In other words, close to just enough light.  :-)

Brian


Man I am on their website and it's CHEAP!!

I can get an H4 Dual (high/low) kit for like 60 bucks...  Just need to decide what color temp I want (I want white so I assume 4500k would be ok....

And need to decide if 35W or 55W is ok..  I assume the 55W would be too much for the bikes reflectors to handle (Too much light splashing around etc)



Meethinks i'm going to give this kit a try :)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 16, 2012, 08:35:58 pm
Just incase anyone is wondering what they look like, this is a set of Bosch bi- xenon projectors. They are large, not weathertight and quite expensive, and possibly some of the finest headlights currently available. Standard equipment on high end German cars. Hella also makes excellent lighting but I think these projectors just may have the edge in light output due to the quality of the lens glass and diameter (bigger is always better no matter what you may have heard).

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=bosch+projector+headlights&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1536&bih=890&tbm=isch&tbnid=SP6kvD5qbXO-WM:&imgrefurl=http://www.lulusoso.com/products/Wira-Projector-Headlamp-Cars.html&docid=iurzOsvj21poaM&imgurl=http://www.lulusoso.com/upload/20120417/Bosch_Bi_Xenon_Projector_Lens_D1S.jpg&w=700&h=700&ei=cWYtUKaRIsmr2AWBtIHoDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=192&vpy=325&dur=1132&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=127&ty=89&sig=112869980446327644725&page=1&tbnh=168&tbnw=168&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0,i:94 (http://www.google.com/imgres?q=bosch+projector+headlights&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1536&bih=890&tbm=isch&tbnid=SP6kvD5qbXO-WM:&imgrefurl=http://www.lulusoso.com/products/Wira-Projector-Headlamp-Cars.html&docid=iurzOsvj21poaM&imgurl=http://www.lulusoso.com/upload/20120417/Bosch_Bi_Xenon_Projector_Lens_D1S.jpg&w=700&h=700&ei=cWYtUKaRIsmr2AWBtIHoDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=192&vpy=325&dur=1132&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=127&ty=89&sig=112869980446327644725&page=1&tbnh=168&tbnw=168&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0,i:94)

Brian
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 17, 2012, 03:10:00 am
WOW impressive knowledge there Brian :)

I am going to order a kit of 4500K hi/low HID's and try them out....   You may make a convert out of me yet LOL
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 17, 2012, 04:51:54 pm
I am glad you are learning about them (and everything else) but I am certainly not trying to convert you or anyone. Just trying to help you gain a little knowledge. In fact I would be perfectly happy if you ended up hating them but I would rather it be from knowledge and basic understanding, along with specific reasons as opposed to just taking a stance and forming an opinion based on incorrect information or worse yet, no information at all.

A lot of people form an opinion and then look for justification to support that opinion regardless of any facts or reasonableness. Unfortunately that is easier to do than a real evaluation and so laziness often carries the day.

A little off topic: I am currently installing lighting in my kitchen after a major renovation. We chose what seemed like good lighting, very modern, pretty 'cool' looking and we were very happy with the choice. Of the three systems (main overhead, under cabinet and over sink), only the over sink lighting is staying. The other two systems just are not working out- they are still 'cool' but are proving to be rather poor lighting devices; uneven illumination, not quite enough illumination from the main lights, and mostly, the casting of strong shadow (quite annoying when just sitting and conversing) and the worst problem, most of the illumination is on the floor rather than spread evenly about the room. A 1930 hanging fixture with two 100 watt bulbs and a flat glass cover (worth about $25 altogether) yields superior lighting to my pretty high tech, somewhat expensive and hugely difficult to install recessed lighting system. Emotionally I want this system to work but in reality it just ain't makin' the trip. And yes, I have tried different types of light (tungsten and LED), different beam spread angles, etc. and while some are better than others, none are really adequate. Finally, it is an absolute power pig- 400 watts of lights baking down on everyone and it's still a bit dim here and there. But I am still glad I learned about this rather than just guessed at the outcome (although a better guess would have been cheaper). Now on to an even higher tech., more expensive lighting system! But I am holding the idea of the 1920 fixture with a pull string as a final option.  ;D

Brian


Brian

WOW impressive knowledge there Brian :)

I am going to order a kit of 4500K hi/low HID's and try them out....   You may make a convert out of me yet LOL
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Samuel on August 17, 2012, 07:44:25 pm
This has been some of the best information I've received. Thank you everyone. I'll be doing the install in a couple weeks already have the lights. These light are designed for motorcycles mounts right up in the housing. If you go to the website they have a video showing how simple the install is. My only concern now is making sure I don't Blind anyone.  I plan on taking pictures and video of the install. I'll keep you guys posted. I've learned a tone. Also the lights someone posted on here where Projector but now angel eye or demon eye. The details makes the difference.  Thank guys again this is going to be a fun project. I'm also installing the Cross Country PIAA driving lights using Murph's Mirror Mounts, believe I'll have my light cure now.
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Kapernicus on August 17, 2012, 11:58:20 pm
All good info in this thread. However, I would still be interested to hear the OP's experience with the projector style HIDs he mentioned.  As samwilliams33 pointed out, the company selling the projectors has an install video to give you an idea of how to retro fit an existing headlight housing:

Motorcycle HID Projector Installation Guide_Motorcycle Headlight Retrofit_KT-MT5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT00v0VOE9A#)

With this video and the information gleaned from the A&R Motorsports guide to installing their HID kit on a C-14, a chowderhead like me could probably pull this off:

http://www.aandrmotorsport.com/directions/concourshidinstructions.html (http://www.aandrmotorsport.com/directions/concourshidinstructions.html)

Keep us posted!   :beerchug:
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 18, 2012, 12:29:17 am
I ordered the kit, once it arrives I will try to document the install ...
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Kapernicus on August 18, 2012, 01:04:39 am
Nice!  Also wondering if it's possible to remove the silver reflective lining in the headlight housing while it's taken apart for the projector install since I would assume it is not really necessary with HID projectors.  My thinking is that this would give the illusion of blacking out the headlights, thus giving the bike an aggressive ZX-14-like appearance which would compliment my black C-14 very nicely.   ;D
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Kapernicus on August 18, 2012, 01:19:45 am
This is what I was talking about in regards to "blacking out" the headlight housing.  Looks like the dude just spray painted the reflector and projector housing\shroud.  Skip to 7:20 in the video to see the end result.  Tres chic!   :)

Installation guide for retrofitting mini Bi-Xenon projectors in Motorcycle headlight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3p5jedQcjg#ws)

Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 18, 2012, 03:24:47 am
PS, when I say I ordered the kit, I meant I ordered the HID kit BDF recommended..not the one the OP asked about LOL (Sorry if I wasn't clearer :) )
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 23, 2012, 06:16:26 pm
Hey Marc, did you get that kit in the bike yet? Did it hurt your retinas? :-)

I just picked up a spare headlight housing and am going to run it through the oven later and try to seperate the lens from the body. Then I will be hunting down a set of projectors myself for a retrofit.

Brian

PS, when I say I ordered the kit, I meant I ordered the HID kit BDF recommended..not the one the OP asked about LOL (Sorry if I wasn't clearer :) )
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 24, 2012, 12:22:37 pm
It hasn't arrived yet :(  Once it does I need to find some time to install it.

I'm very curious to see how your projector project goes.... :)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Bruiser on August 25, 2012, 01:44:36 am
BDF is right, although there are kits that some folks use in the existing housings.  If you look online, there are a lot of videos on how to do this right, and yes, it is pretty involved, such as using the oven to loosen things up, etc. 
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 25, 2012, 12:43:21 pm
You probably already know this but just to be safe, please be aware that the igniters will start an arc in those lamps with 20,000 + volts. No need to be wary really but there is one overriding rule: do not power up the ballasts without a bulb in place in the socket. It can all be laying on the ground or your kitchen table and it is perfectly safe but you have to give that voltage somewhere to discharge or it will arc inside the connector or worse, from the connector to you. As long as a system is complete, it is perfectly safe (ballast, igniter and bulb all connected correctly).

I got my housing in a couple of days ago and with some trepidation, ran it through the oven one time. OK, two times to get it hot enough and I was successful in separating the lens from the housing proper.

This is the headlight housing broken down (bad words!) separated into its main components and with one reflector bowl removed:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/P1010074.jpg)

This is the reflector bucket from the back showing the three mounting points (two for adjustment, one is an anchor):
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/P1010076.jpg)

This is where the bucket mounts into the housing. It is hard to see but there are three screws projecting forward, two adjustments and one regular bolt:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/P1010073.jpg)

And finally this is how the reflectors mount, align and adjust in the housing:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/P1010069.jpg)

In a perfect world, I would be able to find a pair of projectors with mounting tabs in the right place and just bolt them in. That ain't gonna' happen as each one is a 'one off' and nothing in interchangeable. Besides, projectors are much longer than reflectors so the ellipsoidal housing of a projector usually ends up pretty far to the rear of the headlight housing. The two critical parts are that the projectors are timed (rotated) correctly so the cut- off line of projected light is aligned with the horizon, or in other words, NOT crooked with the world, and that the projector remain adjustable in some way for height. I am going to try to retain both stock adjustment points because they work well, are watertight, have dash controls for easy reach adjustment, and I cannot do any better that what is already there. So this is the crux of a projector retrofit- getting the projectors mounted inside the housing, rotated correctly and being adjustable.

Now to choose the projector.... I wonder if it looks funny when I walk through a public parking lot, occasionally kneeling down to study a headlight on a given car? :-)  I would like to go with a 3" lens as they yield the best light output but they also yield a pretty big projector housing due to the focal length of the lens and projector bowl. Going with a smaller lens is the safer way but limits the light's quality right from the start. Sounds like Goldilocks- This projector is too big, this projector is too small....

Will post more photos and information when I have projectors and a plan.

Brian




It hasn't arrived yet :(  Once it does I need to find some time to install it.

I'm very curious to see how your projector project goes.... :)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 25, 2012, 03:47:05 pm
Wow, great pics Brian,  I am really looking forward to seeing how this comes out....


If I recall, one of the posts in this thread shows someone installing projectors in a motorcycle that lock into the standard H4 base... Don't know what kind of quality they would provide. but would something like that be an option for your project?
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Kapernicus on August 25, 2012, 04:06:05 pm
Brian,

You should check out these 3" projectors:  http://www.theretrofitsource.com/product_info.php?products_id=92 (http://www.theretrofitsource.com/product_info.php?products_id=92)

I like their selection and, from what I understand, they provide excellent support for retrofitting HID projectors onto anything. 

Anyhow, I look forward to seeing your project complete as I want to do the same thing to my bike.
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 26, 2012, 01:10:15 am
They are interesting but no, they are too small to produce a lot of light in my opinion. Optics is all about size and quality of components and assembly (alignment actually) of those components.

The idea is really quite clever I think but I wonder if it is a good idea to hang an entire light assembly, and a heavy type at that (projectors are heavy compared to reflectors) on the lip in the back of a reflector housing originally meant to hold only a bulb. I would think over time it would tend to crack the original housing as they are made of plastic. ?? Just an opinion  though and as I have never seen one in person I would certainly take the opportunity to study one if or when I do happen to cross one.

I am pretty excited about it and have been wanting to do this since I got the bike in '07. Of course I was not going to make these types of heavy and experimental modifications to the bucket on my new C-14, and buying a new headlight bucket was simply too expensive. Used ones were not available and they are still not common- the first thing that gets crushed when wrecking a motorcycle is often the front end. So this has been a pet project of mine, albeit on the back burner, for quite a while.

Brian


Wow, great pics Brian,  I am really looking forward to seeing how this comes out....


If I recall, one of the posts in this thread shows someone installing projectors in a motorcycle that lock into the standard H4 base... Don't know what kind of quality they would provide. but would something like that be an option for your project?
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on August 26, 2012, 01:16:17 am
Yep, those are the latest incarnation of the E-55 optics and are supposed to be even better than the earlier type. If that is true, they must be just a bit beyond superb. I was all set to grab a set of those very projectors <when suddenly>, I got turned a bit further east and am now looking at a set of TL projectors. They seem to have an even wider light pattern than the E-55's and the foreground lighting is reduced which really helps long range night vision. They are some really big, oddly shaped housings though so I am not absolutely sure I can shoe- horn them into the C-14 housing. I think I will try to get a set of them next week with the proviso that if I cannot fit them, I can return them in exchange for the Hellas.

Brian


Brian,

You should check out these 3" projectors:  [url]http://www.theretrofitsource.com/product_info.php?products_id=92[/url] ([url]http://www.theretrofitsource.com/product_info.php?products_id=92[/url])

I like their selection and, from what I understand, they provide excellent support for retrofitting HID projectors onto anything. 

Anyhow, I look forward to seeing your project complete as I want to do the same thing to my bike.
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Mad River Marc on August 26, 2012, 02:54:37 am
Whatever you decide to do, please keep documenting it, it's a fascinating project :)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: BDF on September 05, 2012, 09:34:07 pm
Just a quick update because this is a little offtopic:

The TL projectors are not going to work in the C-14 housings, at least not readily. I have swapped them out for a pair of Infinity FX 35/ 45 projectors and those should be here by the end of the week. The light output seems close to the TL, the high beam is better suited for motorcycle use IMO, and the overall projector is smaller and does not have that pesky solenoid sticking down from the bottom so they will fit much more easily.

Maybe what the bike really needs are four projectors, two bi-xenon for normal use and two adjusted [too high] to perform as wide angle driving lights (only used when no oncoming traffic is present) to light up the rest of the Earth that is more than two feet above the ground. Sort of like a ZX 14 but with much better projectors.

Brian
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: Raymond on September 06, 2012, 12:50:43 am
Brian, when I did the Miata's headlights I wound up using the Morimoto bi-xenons. The Miata headlight assembly limited my choices just like the Connie... They were small enough to fit without issue had a good pattern/cutoff and provided a lot more light. Here's what the finished product looked like.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-R4xEuWsIlKE/TLdX0GaHWFI/AAAAAAAACMc/-Byv9UnXN5g/s800/IMG_1289.JPG)
Title: Re: HID Projector KT-MT5D
Post by: stephen.stallebrass on December 21, 2013, 10:08:29 pm
WHAT???

 >:(

Please don't tellme the story ends here... I need a proper ending!

 :'(