Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Accessories C14 => Topic started by: MtnRider on December 14, 2018, 12:46:20 am

Title: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MtnRider on December 14, 2018, 12:46:20 am
Just found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTNJLEV8CG8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTNJLEV8CG8)  Done 5 days ago so is current.

5 filter brands for 3 applications cut apart and reviewed: Fram, Purolator, Bosch, WIX & NAPA Gold.

I thought it was interesting. Know what I'm going with from now on...
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: Charby on December 14, 2018, 02:04:09 am
Thanks. Makes me want to change the filters I have on tonight. :-\
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 14, 2018, 03:37:48 am
 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :-[ ::) :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

makes me want to put on a cowboy hat, and ask him to cut a kawasaki OEM filter apart, and tell us what he thinks of it... maybe because, well, because it makes sense if you base the filter you install on your Kaw, to the others he "tore apart" dry, and un-used.

you can make anything look good, or bad, but unless you test actual flow characteristics, micron size filter capacity, and "normal use" intervals, based on realtime tests of oil at operating temperatures, repeatedly.... it isn't a filter "test", it's only a filter "biopsy".

you may find doing actual filtration tests, in a realistic environment, the efficacy of the worst possible filter someone may find, still exceeds the designed parameters of the needs tenfold.
so, whatever.

but, it's always fun to watch a man in a cowboy hat, cut filters apart, and make a you tube vid. god bless.

 :great:
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: CRocker on December 14, 2018, 04:08:10 am
"OH NO!! Another oil filter thread"

You started it... :beerchug:
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: RWulf on December 14, 2018, 02:27:10 pm
I don't always agree with MOB but when I do I drink
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: bajasam on December 14, 2018, 02:39:24 pm
i only agree with him about half the time, but he pretty much nailed it on this subject, very well stated.
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: cuda on December 15, 2018, 06:13:11 pm
Bought a box of these when I first bought the bike

 https://www.knfilters.com/blog/a-look-inside-a-kn-wrench-off-oil-filter-to-see-what-makes-it-different?gclid=Cj0KCQiA6dLgBRDoARIsAJgoM4ucfleL-iF5BcasTKQlxt28MldRAIumEkhSMUyCalz5tDRV5Hm4Y5AaAs5cEALw_wcB (https://www.knfilters.com/blog/a-look-inside-a-kn-wrench-off-oil-filter-to-see-what-makes-it-different?gclid=Cj0KCQiA6dLgBRDoARIsAJgoM4ucfleL-iF5BcasTKQlxt28MldRAIumEkhSMUyCalz5tDRV5Hm4Y5AaAs5cEALw_wcB)

Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: Buzzard on December 15, 2018, 09:57:14 pm
I, too, would like to know how a Kawasaki filter would have made out in this test. Answered a few questions for me. The take home message is this, Fram is junk! I guess that, yes, the filter medium itself is up for grabs.
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: Jim Snyder on December 15, 2018, 11:33:05 pm
Well now I have to figure out how I have made it for over 25 years using Fram filters with zero issues. But to be fair I am switching to Wix just to keep from getting flamed.
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 16, 2018, 12:33:52 am
Well now I have to figure out how I have made it for over 25 years using Fram filters with zero issues. But to be fair I am switching to Wix just to keep from getting flamed.

I won't flame ya...
It's just amazing how people will watch a vid, and make an a** umption about a products viability, when the product has a long history of satisfied users... I don't see any "my truck/car/motorcycle" blew up due to the common big name filter anyone chooses.

https://www.fram.com/support/tech-documents/consumer-documents/ (https://www.fram.com/support/tech-documents/consumer-documents/)

https://www.fram.com/support/tech-documents/commercial-documents/ (https://www.fram.com/support/tech-documents/commercial-documents/)

I have had filters installed, at "Big Name quick change oil Job" places, that in my mind were completely clogged, and running on the bypass circuit within 3k miles... causing valve clatter to the point I had to replace them myself... but who knows who's filter they really used... no-name generic...

all the major player manufacturer's produce to well above the requirements the vehicle you own has... if they didn't, they would not be in the business. Period.

but if it's on the internet, and on you tube, it all must be true..... :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

when it comes to Motorcycles/wet clutch vs automobile use, auto filters are always cautioned against, so a vid about auto filters, really doesn't apply fully to an M/C filter..as the pressure relief function may not co-incide with that on the bike,
and add in the fact that "some" filters (automotive) do contain Teflon materials and other "chemicals" (i.e. some high mileage units), they are also not appropriate for M/c use (actually Dan Bergmen noted this in regards to filters used with the SPOOFAK)..

so all in all, buy a filter and use it, they all work.. funny, no mention about people using Diesel truck oil in a  motorcycle, while whining about cheesy filters... :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

now, flame on..... oil filter thread in full progress.... :)) :))

Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: cuda on December 16, 2018, 01:49:08 am
Never been to a oil change place of any type MOB... Do they have Popular Science mags? :pokestick:
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MtnRider on December 16, 2018, 04:43:19 am
Well MoB, we all know who the main know it all a** is around here.

Sure Fram filters may get the job done but why not buy something that is obviously superior for some piece of mind, let alone not putting rust particles through your engine.

But you keep the cheap a** flag up & flying. Btw, how did those retreads work out for you...??
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: strum on December 16, 2018, 05:43:06 pm
I too have used Fram for years and never had an issue but I have always likes Wix and this did steer me away from the Fram.
 Been running K&N on the C14 though.
 MOB why dont you buy a few different filters for the C14 and cut them apart for us? Im too cheap :))
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 16, 2018, 07:57:30 pm
Well MoB, we all know who the main know it all a** is around here.

Sure Fram filters may get the job done but why not buy something that is obviously superior for some piece of mind, let alone not putting rust particles through your engine.

But you keep the cheap a** flag up & flying. Btw, how did those retreads work out for you...??

Thanks for your kind commentary.
My comments on the vid were stated as an opinion that not everything we see on the internet is always 'a true representation' for viability.
case in point:
this vid shows 4 Fram filters, all 4 are applications for the same exact vehicle, not varied by  application. The 4 tiers of structure, by price, and characteristics, differ, as the oil used, and the expectations of each, vary commensurate with price.
Note the "model" filter similar to the one that was tested in the other vid, (and found to have some surface rust, on surfaces contacting oil PRIOR to the oil being filtered) is the bottom tier product of the line; I ask, in the other vid, were they comparing the bottom tier products of those competitors products?

In this vid, no commentary was made about rust or contamination. Clearly there was no issue, only the questioning of the endcap material. The "Ultra" model, is clearly superior to the other 3, and cost and expectations, for the price paid, seem fair. But ALL of the are Fram filters, used on the same vehicle.
https://youtu.be/Y544o-mw2wc

would I use a Fram oil filter on my bike? no, would never had used one prior to the video being posted either.. just because I have a preference for a different filter.
Personally, I use the OEM filters, and also the K&N on my C14. I've used Purolator products on my C10's, with the SPOOFAK mod.

would I use a Fram on a truck or other vehicle I own? Sure, but I wouldn't use the bottom $ one either, The Ultra, which I have used before, is perfectly fine,
Oh, yeah, the cheap $275 set of retreads, purchased/intended for a truck that sees zero freeway use, and which I only wanted to get thru this winter, went back to the vendor, and I installed $450 tires, which will likely outlast this truck as they have a 55k warranty, and I'm using them on a truck that has 180k miles currently... (which is wearing a Purolator oil filter...)...OMG....I'm doomed...

have a great day, ride safe.

Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 16, 2018, 09:15:16 pm
direct response from Fram, concerning all the down talk, when questioned;

"Thank you for the e-mail regarding the construction and micron rating of Fram oil filters. We welcome the opportunity to be of service.
 Fram filters meet the requirements of the original equipment filter designed for a specific engine. Our filter applications follow the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer for form, fit, and function. Fram filters follow internally targeted design guidelines to meet the functional requirements of a given filter. Fram filters are tested against SAE standards to ensure uniform product quality and performance. Material construction will vary between filter manufacturers. We believe Fram filters have a proven record for providing reliability, superior quality, and engine protection over the service life of the filter.

 A common misunderstanding among our customers concerns the end disks in the oil filter. These disks hold the glue which keeps the pleated media formed into a rigid circular tube. The glue-to-media interface is also one of the sealing surfaces keeping dirty and filtered oil from mixing. One common myth is that only metal end disks can adequately seal and have enough strength in the hot oil environment. For this reason, Fram filters are criticized for having cardboard end disks. The issue is, the material doing the sealing is the adhesive, regardless of the material of the end disk. What matters is the strength of the adhesive, its proper curing, the thoroughness with which it can be applied to the disk, and its adhesion to the disk. By using cardboard end disks, Fram filter engineers are able to specify adhesives with excellent strength and sealing properties, and strong adhesion to the disk (intuitively, it is easy to make a strong glue bond with cardboard). Moreover, just as paper media itself is able to withstand the hot oil environment, so too is the end disk designed of fibers engineered to be strong and inert in hot oil. The thickness and strength of the adhesive also stiffens the end disk considerably.

 Fram engineers perform hot oil circulation tests on the filter element and also regularly cut open used filters to examine how well they have withstood the rigors of actual use on a vehicle. For over 38 years, Fram end disks have stood up to hot oil and their adhesives have sealed off the dirty oil.

 Fram's latest entry in the automotive oil filter market is the X2 Extended Guard oil filter. The Fram X2 Extended Guard filter uses a filter media that includes a reinforced mesh screen for maximum pleat integrity, durability, and oil flow. The inclusion of the metal screen increased the glue tolerances or thickness required for proper adhesion to the end disk. The original X2 prototype development specified the cardboard end disk technology. However, the increased amount of adhesive required to join the cardboard end disk to the screened media resulted in prototypes that did not conform to design standards. We had no choice but to use a steel end disk with the X2 filter media to provide uniform Extended Guard oil filter construction.

 Fram automotive oil filters, including the standard Extra Guard and premium X2 Extended Guard filters, have a micron rating of 10 micron.

 If you require further assistance with Fram filter construction, please contact the Fram Engineering Department directly at 1-419-661-6700."

this is an older response for older filters, that used the same technology.
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: Jim Snyder on December 16, 2018, 11:13:54 pm
If all of the bad comments about Fram filters were true they would have been out of business years ago. So why the hate.
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MtnRider on December 16, 2018, 11:39:00 pm
If all of the bad comments about Fram filters were true they would have been out of business years ago. So why the hate.

I agree with your statement. I just like to use something that is better made.

I was hoping this was going to be an entertaining and fun thread, thus the "OH NO!!" title. Guess that didn't come across and it went south quickly.   :-[ ::)

Oh well...
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: Sailor_chic on December 17, 2018, 10:43:17 am
If all of the bad comments about Fram filters were true they would have been out of business years ago. So why the hate.

They have very competitive pricing and excellent marketing. Heck, every Walmart sells Fram, so how could they not stay in business.
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 17, 2018, 09:13:05 pm
wow, new discovery, and talk about perfect timing....  :rotflmao:
I have a '98 Dodge Dakota Sport, that has been sitting for 2-1/2 years, originally bought when I was in Va., and driven there, and here in Ohio for 3 years. I always serviced my own trucks, but when I lost an exhaust system in the winter, and it was leaking oil, I simply parked it as I was no longer working ($$$). Time slipped by, and I decided a couple months ago to resurrect the truck, as it has a perfect body, and was very mechanically sound, even with 170k miles on it... As I don't have a lift, I had the assistance of a local shop, in removing the fuel tank to clean it, and purge all the fuel lines during the process, along with tossing on the new exhaust and such, and getting it running... worth my effort, and the minimal cost my pal charged to do this... when it came down to the final step of finding the oil leak, I found that the oil filter had rusted externally, and had pin holes in it, and when pressurized would drip and loose significant amounts of oil...
I actually didn't remember the last filter I installed, thinking it was a Purolator... then when I saw it, I remembered I installed a freebie someone gave me (he sold his Dodge, and had spare stuff..).... any guess on the filter brand? :??: :??:

The color gave it away as soon as I looked....
 Royal Purple Extended Life Oil Filter... supposedly the best rated filter sold today. :-\ :-\
Go figure.
I'm just ecstatic to have my old truck back on the road again..
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: cuda on December 18, 2018, 02:57:56 am
Every ten years you should change your oil filter :57:
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 18, 2018, 10:11:00 pm
THANX
actually, I forgot I installed that extended (time/mile, not size) filter, It was tossed to me by a guy that was running Synth(Royal Purple), and I run Dino (castrol), so even tho I changed the oil, I knew the filter was good for 10k miles, or more...
I did change the oil that passed thru the filter @ 4k, and IIRC i did do another change, just before I had some issues (exhaust rusted off, I had to replace a waterpump, and associated stuff like serpentine belt, etc., totaly painful cluster-f' .. in a blizzard),fixed the pump but found oil leaks hmmmmm, it leaked prior, but I didn't pay much attention..and then it sat, and again when fired up was an oil leaker... this was almost 3 years ago, (actually put it in "spare/store mode" around 3/2016, because i couldn't afford all the repairs, to get it smog inspected, to renew plates...more $$)

COME ON, you have a '98 with 200k+, that looks like this/ ?
meh

I originally thought the w/p serp belt, slipped behind the balancer, and took out a main seal on the block/pan side.. which I did NOT want to deal with at that time.  if you ever did one, you would not want to do it in winter, on your back, in the snow.. I'm too old now, and was too old even then, to say "oh sure, no problemo..." lie when I was 30, 40, or even 50 years old... :rotflmao:

so, end result, was a total of approx $800, with everything I bought, exhaust, battery, coolant flush and fill, oils and filter, winshield wiper blades, gas cans to dispose of the fuel in the tank, along with my pal's "shop time", to drop the tank, clean and flush it (it's plastic, thank god), completely purge the fuel lines from injector rails back) and get it all done to run.. this cost also includes the re-issue of a temp tag, just to get it to inspection (EPA), and a NEW registration, new plates and stickers.. oh, and also a FULL tank of 100% gasoline (90 octane) which I have a couple miles from my home.

so, the short story is the oil filter actually rusted out, prior to 10k, or 2 years after install... and even tho the truck never saw 10k miles on it from the time it was installed, it was a p.o. doo-doo from the get go. It has a Purolator on it now.

oh, and I do need to correct my miles on the truck...
when I had the EPA inspection today, it actually has 210,970.7 miles on the ODO...
so, tossing that out for oil filter, and service life of a vehicle, I smile and say "I think I'm getting my money's worth, out of the truck.." :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

yeah, call me cheap.. I don't owe anyone, any finance charges, for anything.. :great:
peace. the single rust spot on that ruck, which could be covered by a child's hand, is visible.. the body is immaculate..
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: Jorge on December 19, 2018, 12:41:12 am
The guy in the video make some reasonable points, but... I think he knew which filters he liked the best, and then found what he was looking for.
His points about the Fram filter make sense. Why would they be able to stay in business so long if they had problems?
Marketing, and...Treat warranty as simply a cost of making parts in which you save money on the parts... and marketing. That 1 in several thousand filters that causes the engine to blow... is the owner going to be savvy enough to know it was the filter's fault? then file a formal complaint?  maybe.  and marketing, oh, and also marketing :truce:
Having spent a number of years in the aftermarket portion of Delphi, I can tell you that many parts that claim to be "equal to OE" are FAR from it; the ones that claim to be "better than OE" are no better. They count on you not keeping the car very long (Rich, you and I, and many in COG  are exceptions). Did you keep that receipt for the oil filter? no, sorry, can't talk to you.  Did you install the filter correctly? can you prove it?
Then come the stamped springs instead of "real" springs. Rich will probably agree that a stamped spring will work in the oil filter just as well as a "real" coil spring. The stamped spring is probably easier to assemble properly, so less chance of an error, plus probably lower cost.
The filter media not being as long?   Dude, stretch the pleats the same amount, then let's compare. Maybe same result, but let's keep the playing field level.
I also will not buy a Fram filter, but I have bought many Purolator filters.
For the Cat engine in the Beast, our old RV, Cat filters - too much to lose there to take a chance.
For bikes?  K&N for ease in removing with the built-in nut.
For the 2001 truck with 225,000 miles, probably K&N for same reason.
For the 2007 creampuff Accord we bought a few of months ago?  Take it to the Honda dealer; it's too much of a pain to change myself - LOL

Good discussion, even if it is an oil filter thread  :-X
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 19, 2018, 01:48:34 am
I fully agree, on many points.

so all the discussion, about the manufacturer of the filter, noted in the O/P's start point, as I note...should directly be related to the actual product being utilized by those choosing an applicable filter for their application. no more, no less... apples to apples.

and I do apologize for any inside coments, and distractions.
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 19, 2018, 02:09:51 am
The guy in the video make some reasonable points, but... I think he knew which filters he liked the best, and then found what he was looking for.
///
Good discussion, even if it is an oil filter thread  :-X

i'm astound..

ya thunk?
 :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: MtnRider on December 19, 2018, 03:03:39 am
The guy in the video make some reasonable points, but... I think he knew which filters he liked the best, and then found what he was looking for.
His points about the Fram filter make sense. Why would they be able to stay in business so long if they had problems?
Marketing, and...Treat warranty as simply a cost of making parts in which you save money on the parts... and marketing. That 1 in several thousand filters that causes the engine to blow... is the owner going to be savvy enough to know it was the filter's fault? then file a formal complaint?  maybe.  and marketing, oh, and also marketing :truce:
Having spent a number of years in the aftermarket portion of Delphi, I can tell you that many parts that claim to be "equal to OE" are FAR from it; the ones that claim to be "better than OE" are no better. They count on you not keeping the car very long (Rich, you and I, and many in COG  are exceptions). Did you keep that receipt for the oil filter? no, sorry, can't talk to you.  Did you install the filter correctly? can you prove it?
Then come the stamped springs instead of "real" springs. Rich will probably agree that a stamped spring will work in the oil filter just as well as a "real" coil spring. The stamped spring is probably easier to assemble properly, so less chance of an error, plus probably lower cost.
The filter media not being as long?   Dude, stretch the pleats the same amount, then let's compare. Maybe same result, but let's keep the playing field level.
I also will not buy a Fram filter, but I have bought many Purolator filters.
For the Cat engine in the Beast, our old RV, Cat filters - too much to lose there to take a chance.
For bikes?  K&N for ease in removing with the built-in nut.
For the 2001 truck with 225,000 miles, probably K&N for same reason.
For the 2007 creampuff Accord we bought a few of months ago?  Take it to the Honda dealer; it's too much of a pain to change myself - LOL

Good discussion, even if it is an oil filter thread  :-X

Along the "fun thread" theme.

Even if one filter is "bad". How much actual damage will be done?!? Even if a filter allows some particles thru will it cause a catastrophic failure before the next oil and filter change? If not, there won't be any indication to the vehicle owner that there was a filter issue. With current engine technology there's probably a lot of room for for some filter variability in effectiveness.   :great: :beerchug:
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: Jorge on December 21, 2018, 12:43:12 am
I actually would think that new engines are more sensitive to filters, oil, and contaminants.
Clearances are tighter, surfaces more finely controlled, etc., heck, our 2003 Honda Accord (also our newer 2007) calls for 0W-20 oil, that's almost as thick as whole milk! If it were one of other "lower reliability" brands, I would be suspect, but it's Honda, so I'll trust them.
What can happen if a filter fails?  Really bad scenario: A chunk of cardboard flakes off, and plugs up a camshaft oil passage, or for a connection rod, nothing good will come out of that.  A chunk of that glue applied to the cardboard cracks and pulls off a piece of cardboard, as it travels through the engine, it'll probably land where it can cause the most damage.
If little amounts of cardboard and rust flake off, and plug up the media, then the oil bypasses the element, and you're not filtering any more.
Back when I was in the aftermarket, we had a "council" that met once per month, and review warranty numbers, claims etc. There were a number of high $$ filter claims that I remember seeing.  I don't remember who was actually making those filters, but I do remember that there was an effort underway to switch to Wix made filters.
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: mirage on December 22, 2018, 01:18:40 am
How many motors have you heard that have exploded due to a crap oil filter? I haven't.  When in doubt have an oil analysis done.  My ZRX at 44K showed normal wear and I have no idea how many different types of filters were put on it before I bought it at 31K.  My 2006 KLR (bought new) had normal wear at 34K after using Emgo oil filters. Now I have a Connie and will most likely use a NAPA filter because it's close by.
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: C. Moore on December 22, 2018, 10:58:15 am
Well, who knows. I do run Wix and Napa Gold on my vehicles. I quit using Fram filters years ago due to poor quality reports.
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: Gsled on December 22, 2018, 03:19:21 pm
 Here's a little more fuel for the fire / oil thread. A quote from Driver Mag
"The problems generated by aftermarket oil filters can get you in serious trouble. No matter if you are speaking of an o-ring failure or a literally blown filter, the outcome is not great at all. There was a Moto America Race where one of the bikes caught fire due to a blown oil filter. The filter was a KN race model. Who would have thought?"
 Do a search, some impressive fireballs! :-\
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: AwesomeDad on January 03, 2019, 05:44:00 pm
I’m partial to Wix only because the diesel world swears by them. But if you look there are a lot of parent companies that rebrand the exact same filter for other stores. NAPA comes to mind...

JJ
Title: Re: OH NO!! Another oil filter thread
Post by: cuda on January 04, 2019, 12:07:29 pm
Here's a little more fuel for the fire / oil thread. A quote from Driver Mag
"The problems generated by aftermarket oil filters can get you in serious trouble. No matter if you are speaking of an o-ring failure or a literally blown filter, the outcome is not great at all. There was a Moto America Race where one of the bikes caught fire due to a blown oil filter. The filter was a KN race model. Who would have thought?"
 Do a search, some impressive fireballs! :-\






O ring leaked, Wix makes the NAPA filters.