Author Topic: PCV Question  (Read 8932 times)

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Offline fartymarty

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2013, 12:51:18 am »
I just did some turning practice at parking lot speeds with other bikes and those of us with fuel injection bikes all seemed to have a lot more trouble with smooth throttle action than the bikes with carburetors at those speeds. Same thing trying to slowly let off the throttle during trail braking practice, starts out OK then just barely going a little more and BAM it's almost like a downshift when it shuts off. I'm fairly certain that is what nando is having the problem with when shifting. It seems the FI just totally shuts down everything and yet on the other bikes the carburetors are always letting some fuel in through the idle/slow speed jets, so the power on or off seems to come on more like on/off light switch on the fuel injected bikes, and a fast moving dimmer switch with the carburetors.

Offline dixie

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2013, 05:58:58 pm »
I took the fly's out of my 2008 with a stock exhaust and it was nice that it was not as neutered anymore, sweet crisp throttle response, fun, quiet and was happy for 80+K miles. Last year came a new 2012, full areaP, PCV, ZX14 TB's with Jamie's map, and it is much more fun, even crisper and sweeter, not too loud and it walks away from 14's with just slip on's and no-fly's. It seems that less than this set-up just mask's the extra power everywhere that is there for the taking. The traction control comes on a lot now even on nice dry pavement and higher speeds only because it needs to. Seems to work just like stock but now i need to turn it off to enjoy the nice extra boost in power everywhere as the power wheelies are so addicting. The RWHP is now where the stock previous generation ZX14's and Hayabusa's were. 

Offline Rembrant

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2013, 08:58:40 pm »
I took the fly's out of my 2008 with a stock exhaust and it was nice that it was not as neutered anymore, sweet crisp throttle response, fun, quiet and was happy for 80+K miles. Last year came a new 2012, full areaP, PCV, ZX14 TB's with Jamie's map, and it is much more fun, even crisper and sweeter, not too loud and it walks away from 14's with just slip on's and no-fly's.

Great to hear! So, are you still running Jamie's Fuelmoto map unmodified with the ZX14 TB's? Or did you Autotune it afterwards? Just curious. I am installing all of this stuff in about a month. Wondering how Jamie's map works with the ZX14 TB's.
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Offline JustinF

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2013, 10:17:28 pm »
I took the fly's out of my 2008 with a stock exhaust and it was nice that it was not as neutered anymore, sweet crisp throttle response, fun, quiet and was happy for 80+K miles. Last year came a new 2012, full areaP, PCV, ZX14 TB's with Jamie's map, and it is much more fun, even crisper and sweeter, not too loud and it walks away from 14's with just slip on's and no-fly's. It seems that less than this set-up just mask's the extra power everywhere that is there for the taking. The traction control comes on a lot now even on nice dry pavement and higher speeds only because it needs to. Seems to work just like stock but now i need to turn it off to enjoy the nice extra boost in power everywhere as the power wheelies are so addicting. The RWHP is now where the stock previous generation ZX14's and Hayabusa's were.

I am sure it is a huge improvement, and I am not trying to bust your balls, but no way it is going to walk a ZX-14.  Even with the ZX throttle bodies, the Concours has different cams to get more midrange torque, the connie only has 10.7:1 compression, and first gen ZX-14 has 12:1, and the connie is a whole lot heavier.  My ZX-14 weighs 455 with a couple of gallons of fuel and my 2012 Concours with almost a full tank weighs in at 685 pounds on the same scale.

As I said, I am sure it is a huge improvement but the horsepower won't be in the neighborhood of a stock 14 much less one with slip-on or full exhaust.

And I know people that have the ZX-14 throttle bodies bored out to 47mm without messing with the map that they were already running.  But to get the most out of it, it will need to be mapped with the larger throttle bodies.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 10:35:48 pm by JustinF »

Offline LakeTrax

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2013, 10:51:59 am »
Just for the record and just 'cuz I wanted to reminisce...  :'(

My '09 ZX-14 put out 169.9 HP & 101.1 FT/LBS BEFORE installing slip-ons and a PCV. Not too shabby for a stock bike-

Offline nando

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2013, 05:11:34 pm »
I just want to know if an auto tuner can be installed with the stock engine set up and will that help to take the throttle surge out and smooth the shifting over low rpm...is that so wrong?

I don't really want power commander nor dynos done to my sweet Connie
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Offline BDF

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2013, 07:07:04 pm »
No, not wrong. This is America, where a person can want anything he / she wants to want. Why just now I am dreaming of.... well, let's just say something that probably won't happen. So you go ahead and want to know about anything you desire.....

Can what you want be done? No.   :-)  To add an auto tune module, you first need a Power Commander as well as holes drilled into the exhaust system (at least one) and a bung welded into that hole. Sorry, it is not my universe, I just happen to exist within it and that is the way things are.

Brian

I just want to know if an auto tuner can be installed with the stock engine set up and will that help to take the throttle surge out and smooth the shifting over low rpm...is that so wrong?

I don't really want power commander nor dynos done to my sweet Connie
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline nando

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2013, 07:25:04 pm »
Ha!...I got the message BD.

I think Descartes had it wrong: "I think, therefore, I don't get" its more like reality.
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Offline gPink

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2013, 07:31:34 pm »
I just want to know if an auto tuner can be installed with the stock engine set up and will that help to take the throttle surge out and smooth the shifting over low rpm...is that so wrong?

I don't really want power commander nor dynos done to my sweet Connie
I've found adjusting the throttle cables and changing the throttle tube helped considerably with the perceived surge.

Offline BDF

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2013, 07:56:51 pm »
 ;D

I am still not sure what you are Marty are talking about regarding any fault of the smoothness, throttle lag (or lack of throttle lag), etc. ?? IMO, fuel injection and electronic spark control are the best things to hit engines since gasoline and the C-14 is just like all the other I have experienced- it runs virtually perfectly, predictably and correctly under all circumstances save when it is cold and that is not a fault IMO.

Smoother shifting, better throttle response, smoother in general.... ?? I really do not understand what you folks are addressing here or what the specific problem(s) is. Perhaps you could give more specific examples of what the bike is doing or not doing and what you would like it to do instead.... or not do instead? No humor or sarcasm here, I really am trying to understand what you are referring to regarding any deficiency in the running qualities of this or any other modern bike- they all seem to run about the same to me, each one as perfect as the next. ?? I really do think I am not understanding what you folks are referring to here.

Brian

Ha!...I got the message BD.

I think Descartes had it wrong: "I think, therefore, I don't get" its more like reality.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline dixie

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2013, 08:50:11 pm »
I am using Jamie's base map with no mods, full areap/zx14tb's, 20K miles on the set-up and it still runs great. Have seen a lot of dyno's for stock 05 zx14's/Hayabusa's and they were very close, a few even less than the 156 SAE. That said the ZX14's/Hayabusa's are a nice big step faster but on the street, stock, they can fast walk away, but not run away. Have not found a modified 1000 sport bike that i have not been able to pull away from yet from 20 to over 150.

Offline fartymarty

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2013, 03:03:21 am »
I am still not sure what you are Marty are talking about regarding any fault of the smoothness...

I was having trouble understanding nando as well, until this last weekend. When I normally accelerate and go through the gears I don't have a problem. However when I was doing the parking lot slow speed circles in second gear the throttle control was difficult. It didn't feel linear, as I slowly backed off the gas it would do fine and then fall off a cliff as though I had closed the throttle completely. The same when trying to open the throttle back up nothing... nothing... then bam a jerky lurch forward. Bad throttle work and spastic movements by me would most likely be the consensus of the board, and me as well, normally. However, the two other participants that had FI, both had the same problems (a GSXR and some kind of Ducati I didn't recognize). I tried 1st gear but that was worse. Kinda lets the 'saki off the hook when a Ducati and a Suzuki are doing the same thing as my C14, just a side effect of FI?...or three spastic riders of varying ages coming together in a parking lot?   :-\ :motonoises:

Offline BDF

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2013, 04:33:06 am »
Well I am not sure what we are talking about here- certainly F.I. engines have a crispness and immediacy that carb'd engine are often lacking. There is no air intake inertia or final fuel dribble with a bike equipped with F.I.  Perhaps you folks are looking for a flaw in carb'd bikes that has essentially been cured?

Is there any slack at all in the throttle cables? That has gotten in the way of lots of C-14 riders. Also, once the bike gets a few miles on it, the throttle tube drags on the aluminum handlebar and while it is not noticable most of the time, it does interfere with fine control of the throttle. What worked for me was to clean the handlebar and throttle tube thoroughly, then wrap the handlebar with Teflon tape. The throttle acts as it did new or perhaps a tad better.

Some have complained of a low speed stumble on the C-14 but as far as I know, only when opening the throttle. Your problem seems more to be the gentleness of throttle control. Perhaps one of those throttle tubes that is not round (a throttle tamer if I have the name right) would be in order? It mechanically cuts down the throttle response to the throttle movement for the first few degrees of throttle tube movement and mutes the initial rider input. Quite a few people seem happy with that. ??

Brian


I was having trouble understanding nando as well, until this last weekend. When I normally accelerate and go through the gears I don't have a problem. However when I was doing the parking lot slow speed circles in second gear the throttle control was difficult. It didn't feel linear, as I slowly backed off the gas it would do fine and then fall off a cliff as though I had closed the throttle completely. The same when trying to open the throttle back up nothing... nothing... then bam a jerky lurch forward. Bad throttle work and spastic movements by me would most likely be the consensus of the board, and me as well, normally. However, the two other participants that had FI, both had the same problems (a GSXR and some kind of Ducati I didn't recognize). I tried 1st gear but that was worse. Kinda lets the 'saki off the hook when a Ducati and a Suzuki are doing the same thing as my C14, just a side effect of FI?...or three spastic riders of varying ages coming together in a parking lot?   :-\ :motonoises:
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline rob

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2013, 12:30:45 am »
Adding a set of ZX 14 throttle bodies to a C-14 just about mandates a programmable fuel metering solution as there won't be any 'canned' solutions available. You could do a bunch of dyno runs to find reasonable air / fuel tables but what you are doing is the very best way IMO in going with the auto tune module because it will compensate for everything / anything in your riding conditions.

Please do let us know how you find the T/C after the mods. are done. I would absolutely LOVE to see how the original ECU implements traction control but I just am not set up to gather the data (secondary 'flies position, fuel injector 'ON' times, spark timing when the T/C engages) and of course do not have a C-14 with traction control anyway.

Best of luck with your project.

Brian


<snip>

I ordered a new Area-P full system, PC5 & Autotune for my 2010 with ABS and Traction Control. I already have a new set of 2010 ZX14 throttle bodies and mid-range velocity stacks. I will be installing all of it this winter...the exhaust is still another 4-5 weeks away anyway. I will be happy to post up the results of installing these mods for anybody that is remotely curious. (In the spring...lol).

<snip>

Anyhow, I'll be sure to let y'all know how my traction control works when my secondary flies are in a ziplock baggie in the top drawer of my spare parts dresser in the garage...lol. I thought the fly removal and PC3 were nice upgrades to my 08 C-14, so I'm really anxious to get it all done to my 2010. Stay tuned;)


I have the full area p, bmc, and PC V installed, with bike dyno'd after and tuned nicely to 157 hp.  If I install zx14 TB's and pull the flies, will the addition of an AutoTune device negate the need to go to the dyno again?  Does the AutoTune get rid of that necessity from here on out then?

Offline BDF

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2013, 03:12:02 pm »
In my opinion yes but it must be done with a bit of restraint. That big of a change (bores increasing from 40 mm to 44 mm) will let in a lot more air and therefore will take a lot more fuel at high power outputs. Initially the bike will tend to run lean at that very moment when lean is 'bad'. The tuning module will have maximum change parameters in it so that it does not change the mixture by, say, 50% suddenly when the O2 sensor wire falls off. So when you begin the tune, the module will enrich the mixture by a maximum amount that may well be less that the amount you need. So you either need to do the tuning in reasonable steps, letting the module change the maps a number of times before it settles in, or change a map before you even begin by adding, say, 10% more fuel to all the cells in the upper power area- the last 30% of the RPM range for example. And even then approach max. power carefully and make sure the air / fuel mixture stays w/in a reasonable band, say 13.5: 1 or a bit more rich. Eventually for max. power you will probably end up in the 12.5- 12.7 range at high power outputs.

Neat project, best of luck with it.

Brian

I have the full area p, bmc, and PC V installed, with bike dyno'd after and tuned nicely to 157 hp.  If I install zx14 TB's and pull the flies, will the addition of an AutoTune device negate the need to go to the dyno again?  Does the AutoTune get rid of that necessity from here on out then?
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline rob

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2013, 03:48:30 pm »
Thanks for the response.  I'm thinking I'm just going to go back to my dyno guy and have him tune it again.  Will running it that way for the 50 miles I need to ride there be detrimental at all?

Offline BDF

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Re: PCV Question
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2013, 04:07:00 pm »
I cannot say with certainty but I do not think so if the power output is kept low. In other words, no wheelies or max. effort runs up to redline.  ;)

Just my opinion but I would tinker with the auto tune module myself. Read up a bit on how it works, and ride the bike a bit on the easy side and watch to see how quickly it makes changes to the map. My guess is that it will be really easy and quite safe to have the module tune the bike. Nothing wrong with a dyno run either but that too is going to subject the bike to the same high power conditions with the same lean mixture until the fuel chart is sufficiently enriched anyway. Put another way, a dyno tune is not risk free or even any better regarding getting the mixture rich enough, fast enough. I would tune it by riding it but just keep watch over the mixture to make sure it settles in before beating the tar out of it. And we know you are going to beat the tar out of it or why bother with the bigger T.B.'s in the first place?  :)

Brian

Thanks for the response.  I'm thinking I'm just going to go back to my dyno guy and have him tune it again.  Will running it that way for the 50 miles I need to ride there be detrimental at all?
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com