Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Accessories C14 => Topic started by: jawneelogik on February 25, 2016, 10:32:51 pm

Title: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 25, 2016, 10:32:51 pm
Hi all,

I am new here.  This is my first post.

I've just finished installing a Rostra 250-1223 cruise unit on my 2010 ZG1400ABS.  My physical install is quite a bit different than most others I have seen on this forum, but my wiring and switch settings are according to Fred Harmon's excellent diagram.

The diagnostic test went well, but when I took the bike out for its first ride, the controller engaged then immediately started surging violently.  I was in 3rd gear only going 40, but it was a bit tense.  Hitting the brake disengaged it instantly so no serious jeopardy.

I tried increasing the gain from its lowest starting setting to the highest, but it seemed to make no difference.  I would prefer to not start randomly experimenting with switch settings given that the suggest settings have been reported to give such excellent response.

Any suggestions?  I have a few pics of my install if anyone wants to see

Thx. John
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: Sailor_chic on February 25, 2016, 10:56:08 pm
Hello John and welcome to the forum. 
From what I understand, the Rostra isn't really designed got this application, so its borderline on bring able to set it. The settings on the Rostra aren't specific enough to pick up the pulses from our speed sensor With my Rostra, I found that it works best in 6th gear, at speeds 50+, or it will surge as well.
Hope this helps you 
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: MikeB_CA on February 25, 2016, 10:59:16 pm
Hi all,

I am new here.  This is my first post.

I've just finished installing a Rostra 250-1223 cruise unit on my 2010 ZG1400ABS.  My physical install is quite a bit different than most others I have seen on this forum, but my wiring and switch settings are according to Fred Harmon's excellent diagram.

The diagnostic test went well, but when I took the bike out for its first ride, the controller engaged then immediately started surging violently.  I was in 3rd gear only going 40, but it was a bit tense.  Hitting the brake disengaged it instantly so no serious jeopardy.

I tried increasing the gain from its lowest starting setting to the highest, but it seemed to make no difference.  I would prefer to not start randomly experimenting with switch settings given that the suggest settings have been reported to give such excellent response.

Any suggestions?  I have a few pics of my install if anyone wants to see

Thx. John

yep...what she said! Mine surged too when I used it at slower speeds. Take it up to highway speeds and set it and you should be fine. I use mine when at 70mph or above :great:
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: C14lvr on February 25, 2016, 11:57:29 pm
Yes, it will surge like that in 3rd gear. Use it in top gear, speeds above 33 mph.

If for some reason it still surges at highway speeds in top gear, and on level roads...
Please post your dip switch settings for us.

There are some switch changes that might help, in certain situations...
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 26, 2016, 03:40:26 am
Thx much for your replies.

I will get er out to the freeway for a high speed run, but was wanting to just confirm correct operation before I finished reassembling the whole left side of the bike.

My switch settings started out the same as what Fred Harmon suggests:  001111000100 (sw #1 is leftmost).  I have tried increasing the gain (sw 1, 2) and it is now on its highest setting.  It made no measurable difference that I could detect.

I contacted Rostra tech support, but they almost refused to talk to me after I told them it was on a bike.  I was trying to find out what the setup timer values were in relation to the number of cylinders, etc.  Apparently, the 8cyl low setting is best for our application, but I don't understand why that would be so.  Why wouldn't one of the 4cyl settings be best?

How important is the issue with the throttle cable travel distance?  I measured mine at 22mm.  It required the addition of 3 beads and a connector to achieve the prescribed 41mm as per the install manual.  From what I have seen of others' installs, very little attention is paid to this.  In fact, when I first tried the system out, I had no bead chain, but only used the "loop cable" connected directly to the controller cable then to the throttle body.

Thanks for your help. John
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 26, 2016, 03:44:26 am
I've tried a couple of times to upload some pictures, but without any success.  What am I doing wrong?
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: Bigfoot_16 on February 26, 2016, 12:13:38 pm
John, you should only have about 1/16" of slack in the Rostra cable that connects to the throttle. This isn't documented at all in Brian Felice's guide. The Rostra manual says to have lots of slack, but that simply doesn't work well on a C14.
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: C14lvr on February 26, 2016, 01:15:27 pm
John, you should only have about 1/16" of slack in the Rostra cable that connects to the throttle. This isn't documented at all in Brian Felice's guide. The Rostra manual says to have lots of slack, but that simply doesn't work well on a C14.

+1!

For pictures, you need to go through a 3rd party, like Photobucket, etc. Once you load your pic there, copy the link and post that in a thread here.

You need a little bit of slack, but not a lot. The more slack you have, the more the servo has to roll up, the more engagement time there is. Too much slack can also exhibit surging, as the servo tries to compensate.

Fred, BDF, or some other wiser folks may be able to answer the specific reason why the 8 cyl. Switch setting is used instead of the 4 cyl, but I believe it was chosen during initial trial and error, based on the bike's weight vs. a car's weight.

You have to remember, the Rostra is a universal CC system that was designed for cars. We've just learned how to adapt it for a bike. Rostra doesn't like giving much advice to us, due to liability issues.

But, recently, I had a tough problem on a friends BMW I had put one on 3 years ago, and Rostra was great to talk the issues through with me... (after they learned I had installed 8 of their systems on bikes, was an electrical contractor, and also hold ASE Master Certification.)

On mine, I noticed it seemed to be slow to engage, so I changed my #2  to "ON". It engages quicker now, but I get more surging sometimes. I've since learned the value of "less slack is better".

Vehicle weight differences are why Rostra has dip switch adjustments. But usually, the settings listed in the tutorials BDF and Fred gave work well on a C14. Cable slack adjustment may be the deal, if you still have an issue after trying in OD at highway speeds.
Bob
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: C14lvr on February 26, 2016, 01:27:51 pm
John,
Just noticed your #11 switch setting is wrong...
#11, believe it or not, should be "ON".

I know we have manual transmissions, and logically, you'd think off would be correct, but it's not!

Guess it's due to only working properly in OD...?

(I thought this was strange, myself... but "auto transmission" mode works.)

Maybe part of the issue, too?

Should be:
001111000110.

Here's the breakdown:
Dip switches 1,2,7,8,9- these control unit response to changes in speed and overall system behavior.
1 and 2 sets the gain, specifically.

Dip switches 3,4,5,6,10- sets the "pulses per mile" or pulse train for VSS square wave vs. sine wave.
A VSS uses a square wave. A magnet/pickup coil kit uses a sine wave- different settings. Overall tire diameter would be used to calculate tire RPM for proper setting.

NOTE: When installing a Rostra on a bike with no VSS, a magnet/coil kit can be used. I have successfully installed neodynium magnets, sized to fit, in the front rotor bolt heads, and attached a pickup coil kit to the fork. Dip switch settings are then changed, accordingly. Instead of using the grey VSS wire to the Rostra, the coil kit (250-4165) is plugged into the matching Rostra wiring harness "J" connector. You will have to do the OD front tire calculation to achieve the proper switch settings for your specific bike.

I have successfully installed this way on older bikes, and also on one bike who's CPU diode blew, due to an off-road accident which damaged the servo, and caused an internal wiring short in the servo. Even after I replaced the damaged servo, it refused to work! The blown CPU diode caused a voltage backfeed to the servo, interferring with the Rostra's ability to process the VSS info. Changing over to a coil/magnet setup was cheaper and faster than an expensive CPU replacement, which was not affecting any of the bike's performance, otherwise. (2005 BMW R1200GS)

Dip switch 7- may be switched to "ON" if vehicle has problems holding speed while cruise is on. (Vehicle weight difference comes into play here sometimes.)

Dip switch 11- manual or automatic transmission.

Dip switch 12- open or closed circuit switch. Switch 250-3592 (w/engage light) & switch 250-3593 (no engage light) are open circuit switches and should use "0" or OFF setting.
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: MikeB_CA on February 26, 2016, 02:28:30 pm
John, you should only have about 1/16" of slack in the Rostra cable that connects to the throttle. This isn't documented at all in Brian Felice's guide. The Rostra manual says to have lots of slack, but that simply doesn't work well on a C14.

John, Bigfoot is ABSOLUTELY correct...I couldn't get my Rostra working when I first installed it and went through many hours tracing steps to see what I did wrong and finally thought about the cable. Lo-and-behold, too much slack! I tightened it up and the unit worked great!!!!
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 26, 2016, 02:33:45 pm
John,
Just noticed your #11 switch setting is wrong...
#11, believe it or not, should be "ON". Are you sure?  I do have my NSS hooked up to my clutch interlock and the tach signal is grounded.  This seems to work properly although a bit slow to react.

I know we have manual transmissions, and logically, you'd think off would be correct, but it's not!

Guess it's due to only working properly in OD...?

(I thought this was strange, myself... but "auto transmission" mode works.)

Maybe part of the issue, too?

Should be:
001111000110.

Here's the breakdown:
Dip switches 1,2,7,8,9- these control unit response to changes in speed and overall system behavior.
1 and 2 sets the gain, specifically.

Dip switches 3,4,5,6,10- sets the "pulses per mile" or pulse train for VSS square wave vs. sine wave.
A VSS uses a square wave. A magnet/pickup coil kit uses a sine wave- different settings. Overall tire diameter would be used to calculate tire RPM for proper setting.

NOTE: When installing a Rostra on a bike with no VSS, a magnet/coil kit can be used. I have successfully installed neodynium magnets, sized to fit, in the front rotor bolt heads, and attached a pickup coil kit to the fork. Dip switch settings are then changed, accordingly. Instead of using the grey VSS wire to the Rostra, the coil kit (250-4165) is plugged into the matching Rostra wiring harness "J" connector. You will have to do the OD front tire calculation to achieve the proper switch settings for your specific bike.
I have successfully installed this way on older bikes, and also on one bike who's CPU diode was blown, causing the Rostra not to work at all.

Dip switch 7- may be switched to "ON" if vehicle has problems holding speed while cruise is on. (Vehicle weight difference comes into play here sometimes.)So you're saying that these settings relate to the "weight" of the vehicle? i.e. 8cyl means a heavier 8 cyl vehicle and 4 cyl low means a light 4cyl vehicle?  This is a question I tried to get answered by Rostra, but the so-called tech didn't seem to understand what I was asking.

Dip switch 11- manual or automatic transmission.Set to manual

Dip switch 12- open or closed circuit switch.Mine is a 250-3592 "Open Circuit."

Just to be clear, I've used the full color wiring diagram that was created by Fred Harmon for the Rostra controller c/w Rostra control switch including "Engaged" LED.  The only changes I've made on my install were the grounds.  I've run all my grounds to one common point (Front Accessory Connector).  This avoids the "ground loop" problem that can occur when using different grounding points in the system.

As to the cable slack, I've always left zero slack or at least as little as I can achieve (the bracket has some amount of flex.)  I originally had the controller cable connected directly to the supplied "loop cable" using one of the bead chain connectors.  This didn't seem to work at all.  So, after re-reading the installation instructions, I went through the motions and added what the manual called for.  This meant adding 4 (total) beads and an additional connector. i.e. lengthening the controller cable "stick-out." After this, I re-adjusted the controller cable to have zero slack.

I will go back and remove the beads then try setting setup timer to "4cyl low".

Again, thank you all for your assistance.  I really hope I can get this working right.  Otherwise I may have to think about trading this beastie  :'( off.  I seem to get really cramped-up after only short rides and the CC would have been the answer to that problem.  It would be a shame, as I do love this bike.
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: C14lvr on February 26, 2016, 02:41:50 pm
John,
Just noticed your #11 switch setting is wrong...
#11, believe it or not, should be "ON". Are you sure?  I do have my NSS hooked up to my clutch interlock and the tach signal is grounded.  This seems to work properly although a bit slow to react.

I know we have manual transmissions, and logically, you'd think off would be correct, but it's not!

Guess it's due to only working properly in OD...?

(I thought this was strange, myself... but "auto transmission" mode works.)

Maybe part of the issue, too?

Should be:
001111000110.

Here's the breakdown:
Dip switches 1,2,7,8,9- these control unit response to changes in speed and overall system behavior.
1 and 2 sets the gain, specifically.

Dip switches 3,4,5,6,10- sets the "pulses per mile" or pulse train for VSS square wave vs. sine wave.
A VSS uses a square wave. A magnet/pickup coil kit uses a sine wave- different settings. Overall tire diameter would be used to calculate tire RPM for proper setting.

NOTE: When installing a Rostra on a bike with no VSS, a magnet/coil kit can be used. I have successfully installed neodynium magnets, sized to fit, in the front rotor bolt heads, and attached a pickup coil kit to the fork. Dip switch settings are then changed, accordingly. Instead of using the grey VSS wire to the Rostra, the coil kit (250-4165) is plugged into the matching Rostra wiring harness "J" connector. You will have to do the OD front tire calculation to achieve the proper switch settings for your specific bike.
I have successfully installed this way on older bikes, and also on one bike who's CPU diode was blown, causing the Rostra not to work at all.

Dip switch 7- may be switched to "ON" if vehicle has problems holding speed while cruise is on. (Vehicle weight difference comes into play here sometimes.)So you're saying that these settings relate to the "weight" of the vehicle? i.e. 8cyl means a heavier 8 cyl vehicle and 4 cyl low means a light 4cyl vehicle?  This is a question I tried to get answered by Rostra, but the so-called tech didn't seem to understand what I was asking.

Dip switch 11- manual or automatic transmission.Set to manual

Dip switch 12- open or closed circuit switch.Mine is a 250-3592 "Open Circuit."

Just to be clear, I've used the full color wiring diagram that was created by Fred Harmon for the Rostra controller c/w Rostra control switch including "Engaged" LED.  The only changes I've made on my install were the grounds.  I've run all my grounds to one common point (Front Accessory Connector).  This avoids the "ground loop" problem that can occur when using different grounding points in the system.

As to the cable slack, I've left zero slack or at least as little as I can achieve (the bracket has some amount of flex.)  I originally had the controller cable connected directly to the supplied "loop cable" using one of the bead chain connectors.  This didn't seem to work at all.  So, after re-reading the installation instructions, I went through the motions and added what the manual called for.  This meant adding 4 (total) beads and an additional connector.  After this, I re-adjusted the controller cable to have zero slack.

I will go back and remove the beads then try setting setup timer to "4cyl low".

Again, thank you all for your assistance.  I really hope I can get this working right.  Otherwise I may have to think about trading this beastie :) off.  I seem to get really cramped-up after only short rides and the CC would have been the answer to that problem.  It would be a shame, as I do love this bike.
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: C14lvr on February 26, 2016, 02:56:07 pm
John,
Just noticed your #11 switch setting is wrong...
#11, believe it or not, should be "ON". Are you sure?  I do have my NSS hooked up to my clutch interlock and the tach signal is grounded.  This seems to work properly although a bit slow to react.

I know we have manual transmissions, and logically, you'd think off would be correct, but it's not!

Guess it's due to only working properly in OD...?

(I thought this was strange, myself... but "auto transmission" mode works.)

Maybe part of the issue, too?

Should be:
001111000110.

Here's the breakdown:
Dip switches 1,2,7,8,9- these control unit response to changes in speed and overall system behavior.
1 and 2 sets the gain, specifically.

Dip switches 3,4,5,6,10- sets the "pulses per mile" or pulse train for VSS square wave vs. sine wave.
A VSS uses a square wave. A magnet/pickup coil kit uses a sine wave- different settings. Overall tire diameter would be used to calculate tire RPM for proper setting.

NOTE: When installing a Rostra on a bike with no VSS, a magnet/coil kit can be used. I have successfully installed neodynium magnets, sized to fit, in the front rotor bolt heads, and attached a pickup coil kit to the fork. Dip switch settings are then changed, accordingly. Instead of using the grey VSS wire to the Rostra, the coil kit (250-4165) is plugged into the matching Rostra wiring harness "J" connector. You will have to do the OD front tire calculation to achieve the proper switch settings for your specific bike.
I have successfully installed this way on older bikes, and also on one bike who's CPU diode was blown, causing the Rostra not to work at all.

Dip switch 7- may be switched to "ON" if vehicle has problems holding speed while cruise is on. (Vehicle weight difference comes into play here sometimes.)So you're saying that these settings relate to the "weight" of the vehicle? i.e. 8cyl means a heavier 8 cyl vehicle and 4 cyl low means a light 4cyl vehicle?  This is a question I tried to get answered by Rostra, but the so-called tech didn't seem to understand what I was asking.

Dip switch 11- manual or automatic transmission.Set to manual

Dip switch 12- open or closed circuit switch.Mine is a 250-3592 "Open Circuit."

Just to be clear, I've used the full color wiring diagram that was created by Fred Harmon for the Rostra controller c/w Rostra control switch including "Engaged" LED.  The only changes I've made on my install were the grounds.  I've run all my grounds to one common point (Front Accessory Connector).  This avoids the "ground loop" problem that can occur when using different grounding points in the system.

As to the cable slack, I've left zero slack or at least as little as I can achieve (the bracket has some amount of flex.)  I originally had the controller cable connected directly to the supplied "loop cable" using one of the bead chain connectors.  This didn't seem to work at all.  So, after re-reading the installation instructions, I went through the motions and added what the manual called for.  This meant adding 4 (total) beads and an additional connector.  After this, I re-adjusted the controller cable to have zero slack.

I will go back and remove the beads then try setting setup timer to "4cyl low".

Again, thank you all for your assistance.  I really hope I can get this working right.  Otherwise I may have to think about trading this beastie :) off.  I seem to get really cramped-up after only short rides and the CC would have been the answer to that problem.  It would be a shame, as I do love this bike.

Hi again, John...
FYI, you may want to go back and reread my previous post. After I posted, I went back and edited some, adding a few clarifications in places. Didn't expect you'd reply so fast! Lol.

Having one common ground for everything's the best. Totally agree, and this is how I wire all mine.
I never use the dark blue tach wire. Nor do I ground it. It is used if you have an automatic transmission, which would shut the cruise down if it got knocked into neutral. We disregard this wire.

As for slack, like Jim said previously, you want about 1/16" inch...just a little bit.

As for the specific reason behind why the pioneers who adapted the Rostra to a C14 chose the 8 cyl setting, I can't answer that one. Fred or Brian Felice can, I'm sure. Brian Felice's tutorial was the first one I saw when I first put one on an '08 C14. I used his settings/directions. Worked perfectly. When I bought my 2011 C14, I used them again. Worked perfectly. I have used it on 4 BMW's... no problems.

I think Murph'skits has Brian's tutorial link. You might compare the two?
I would suggest you switch #11.

Have you had a chance to try it out on the highway in top gear at say 65 mph yet?

I also have a hand drawn (rough sketch) wiring diagram w/ other necessary info and explanations I made for my own future reference I can PM you, if you need it.

The Rostra WILL work great on these bikes. I love mine! 4 years now, -0- problems.
Don't give up yet, neither on the Rostra OR the C14. Both are "totally awesome!"  :)
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: Fred_Harmon_TX on February 26, 2016, 02:58:49 pm
My advice would be not to use the cruise control in any gears other than 5th or 6th (preferably 6th) and at any speeds below about 50.  It's intended purpose is for cruising in top gear at highway speeds. If you use it in that fashion, I think you'll be very happy with it.

Most motorcycles that have factory integrated cruise control won't allow you to even engage it in the lower gears and at lower speeds. Unfortunately, there is no way for the Rosta to limit engagement based on what gear your in, so it will let you engage it in any gear.
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: MikeB_CA on February 26, 2016, 03:01:17 pm

Hi again, John...
FYI, you may want to go back and reread my previous post. After I posted, I went back and edited some, adding a few clarifications in places. Didn't expect you'd reply so fast! Lol.

Having one common ground for everything's the best. Totally agree, and this is how I wire all mine.
I never use the dark blue tach wire. Nor do I ground it. It is used if you have an automatic transmission, which would shut the cruise down if it got knocked into neutral. We disregard this wire.

As for slack, like Jim said previously, you want about 1/16" inch...just a little bit.

As for the specific reason behind why the pioneers who adapted the Rostra to a C14 chose the 8 cyl setting, I can't answer that one. Fred or Brian Felice can, I'm sure. Brian Felice's tutorial was the first one I saw when I first put one on an '08 C14. I used his settings/directions. Worked perfectly. When I bought my 2011 C14, I used them again. Worked perfectly. I have used it on 4 BMW's... no problems.

I think Murph'skits has Brian's tutorial link. You might compare the two?
I would suggest you switch #11.

Have you had a chance to try it out on the highway in top gear at say 65 mph yet?

I also have a hand drawn (rough sketch) wiring diagram w/ other necessary info and explanations I made for my own future reference I can PM you, if you need it.

The Rostra WILL work great on these bikes. I love mine! 4 years now, -0- problems.
Don't give up yet, neither on the Rostra OR the C14. Both are "totally awesome!"  :)

+1 on Brian's instructions. I've used his instructions on 2 installs and they both worked great. I did have some problems getting them to work first try but the issues were totally "carbon-based errors" :-[!
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: MikeB_CA on February 26, 2016, 03:03:08 pm
My advice would be not to used the cruise control in any gears other than 5th or 6th (preferably 6th) and at any speeds below about 50.  It's intended purpose is for cruising in top gear at highway speeds. If you use it in that fashion, I think you'll be very happy with it.

Most motorcycles that have factory integrated cruise control won't allow you to even engage it in the lower gears and at lower speeds. Unfortunately, there is no way for the Rosta to limit engagement based on what gear your in, so it will let you engage it in any gear.

Again...+1...what he said! Like I said earlier, I don't use mine unless I'm at 70mph or faster...I like faster :motonoises:  :)
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 26, 2016, 03:18:58 pm
John,
Just noticed your #11 switch setting is wrong...
#11, believe it or not, should be "ON". Are you sure?  I do have my NSS hooked up to my clutch interlock and the tach signal is grounded.  This seems to work properly although a bit slow to react.

I know we have manual transmissions, and logically, you'd think off would be correct, but it's not!

Guess it's due to only working properly in OD...?

(I thought this was strange, myself... but "auto transmission" mode works.)

Maybe part of the issue, too?

Should be:
001111000110.

Here's the breakdown:
Dip switches 1,2,7,8,9- these control unit response to changes in speed and overall system behavior.
1 and 2 sets the gain, specifically.

Dip switches 3,4,5,6,10- sets the "pulses per mile" or pulse train for VSS square wave vs. sine wave.
A VSS uses a square wave. A magnet/pickup coil kit uses a sine wave- different settings. Overall tire diameter would be used to calculate tire RPM for proper setting.

NOTE: When installing a Rostra on a bike with no VSS, a magnet/coil kit can be used. I have successfully installed neodynium magnets, sized to fit, in the front rotor bolt heads, and attached a pickup coil kit to the fork. Dip switch settings are then changed, accordingly. Instead of using the grey VSS wire to the Rostra, the coil kit (250-4165) is plugged into the matching Rostra wiring harness "J" connector. You will have to do the OD front tire calculation to achieve the proper switch settings for your specific bike.
I have successfully installed this way on older bikes, and also on one bike who's CPU diode was blown, causing the Rostra not to work at all.

Dip switch 7- may be switched to "ON" if vehicle has problems holding speed while cruise is on. (Vehicle weight difference comes into play here sometimes.)So you're saying that these settings relate to the "weight" of the vehicle? i.e. 8cyl means a heavier 8 cyl vehicle and 4 cyl low means a light 4cyl vehicle?  This is a question I tried to get answered by Rostra, but the so-called tech didn't seem to understand what I was asking.

Dip switch 11- manual or automatic transmission.Set to manual

Dip switch 12- open or closed circuit switch.Mine is a 250-3592 "Open Circuit."

Just to be clear, I've used the full color wiring diagram that was created by Fred Harmon for the Rostra controller c/w Rostra control switch including "Engaged" LED.  The only changes I've made on my install were the grounds.  I've run all my grounds to one common point (Front Accessory Connector).  This avoids the "ground loop" problem that can occur when using different grounding points in the system.

As to the cable slack, I've left zero slack or at least as little as I can achieve (the bracket has some amount of flex.)  I originally had the controller cable connected directly to the supplied "loop cable" using one of the bead chain connectors.  This didn't seem to work at all.  So, after re-reading the installation instructions, I went through the motions and added what the manual called for.  This meant adding 4 (total) beads and an additional connector.  After this, I re-adjusted the controller cable to have zero slack.

I will go back and remove the beads then try setting setup timer to "4cyl low".

Again, thank you all for your assistance.  I really hope I can get this working right.  Otherwise I may have to think about trading this beastie :) off.  I seem to get really cramped-up after only short rides and the CC would have been the answer to that problem.  It would be a shame, as I do love this bike.

Hi again, John...
FYI, you may want to go back and reread my previous post. After I posted, I went back and edited some, adding a few clarifications in places. Didn't expect you'd reply so fast! Lol.  I'm motivated to get it working or die trying!

As for slack, like Jim said previously, you want about 1/16" inch...just a little bit. What I have should be good then.

As for the specific reason behind why the pioneers who adapted the Rostra to a C14 chose the 8 cyl setting, I can't answer that one. Fred or Brian Felice can, I'm sure. Brian Felice's tutorial was the first one I saw when I first put one on an '08 C14. I used his settings/directions. Worked perfectly. When I bought my 2011 C14, I used them again. Worked perfectly. I have used it on 4 BMW's... no problems. that was my understanding as well, but if these settings have to do with vehicle weight then setting it for 4cyl low would seem to me to make more sense from a response perspective, no?  I will try that anyway as 8cyl low did not work.

I think Murph'skits has Brian's tutorial link. You might compare the two? I have done so.  In fact, that is where I started this journey.
I would suggest you switch #11.OK, will do.

Have you had a chance to try it out on the highway in top gear at say 65 mph yet?I need to finish reassembling.  I don't want to get out on the highway with half my "intestines" hanging out  ;)

I also have a hand drawn (rough sketch) wiring diagram w/ other necessary info and explanations I made for my own future reference I can PM you, if you need it.

The Rostra WILL work great on these bikes. I love mine! 4 years now, -0- problems.
Don't give up yet, neither on the Rostra OR the C14. Both are "totally awesome!"  :)  As I said earlier "...  or die trying!"  No worries mate.  It is only a machine and machines were meant to be man's servant not his master!
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 26, 2016, 03:47:31 pm
First, let me apologize for over utilizing the "quote" facility.  I see where it can easily get out of hand.

Second, I am gratified to see so many rapid responses to my query.  Thank you all again for wanting to help a fellow traveler.

I'm going to go back to the start using the settings that were included with Fred's diagram then get out on the highway.  I have determined that the safety interlocks are fully functional so I can button this thing back up and not have stuff hanging out.

What I do find frustrating is that, as a control systems engineer, this should not be any sort of problem for me.  It is simply a "garden variety" closed loop control system.  The sticky bit is the fact that we have little or no technical info regarding the actual specs of this system.  Without that we are shooting in the dark.

I will be working over the weekend and, hopefully, get it to a state that is usable.  I will report back my results.

Thank you all and have a great weekend.
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: Daytona_Mike on February 27, 2016, 03:34:50 am
I have a Rostra on my C14 and I have none of the issues I am reading about with surging in any gear and with speeds down to  30mph. I dont think mine will even  engage below 30 but in any case I certainly can run it as low as  3rd gear  and  at   or above 30 mph and  with no surging. The street I live on is 35 mph speed limit and I run the cruise control just fine at that speed and it is very smooth and stable

It might be that that I had  read about others having that problem and  I read that it was due to the short length of the arm where the cable is attached to  so I  lengthened  the attachment  point  to make it sure it wasn't twitchy when I did my install..
That is my experience.
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: Zarticus on February 27, 2016, 04:25:47 am
I have a Rostra on my C14 and I have none of the issues I am reading about with surging in any gear and with speeds down to  30mph. I dont think mine will even  engage below 30 but in any case I certainly can run it as low as  3rd gear  and  at   or above 30 mph and  with no surging. The street I live on is 35 mph speed limit and I run the cruise control just fine at that speed and it is very smooth and stable

It might be that that I had  read about others having that problem and  I read that it was due to the short length of the arm where the cable is attached to  so I  lengthened  the attachment  point  to make it sure it wasn't twitchy when I did my install..
That is my experience.
Same here, No surging & I can use in any gear at about any speed. I also lengthened the arm by about 1 1/4" so maybe that does away with the surging/twitchyness
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: flashback50 on February 27, 2016, 02:08:00 pm
John I would love to see pics of your install if you can post them.   :great:
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 27, 2016, 02:27:48 pm
For anyone who is interested, here is the first batch of fotos.  https://goo.gl/photos/mt33ZWoDyR4PKfdi8

I plan to add more, but, for now, I only have shots of the cable attachment, and that may change based on new information.  I will say that using this particular arrangement made for a nice smooth curve for the control cable to follow.  The cable moves in and out without any stickyness.

john
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 27, 2016, 02:44:03 pm
Could either of you please expand on what you mean?  Are you referring to the "horn" that sticks out passed the throttle pulleys?  If that is what you have done then I will have to completely rearrange my control cable attachment.  I am running my control cable in parallel with the bottom throttle "opening" cable, and the "loop" cable that is included with the Rostra kit actually loops over that horn then slides down into the bottom pulley track.  (I don't have a photobucket to post pics to or I would show you.)  Do you have any fotos?

What about dip switch settings?  Can you share?

Thx for responding by-the-way.

John

I have a Rostra on my C14 and I have none of the issues I am reading about with surging in any gear and with speeds down to  30mph. I dont think mine will even  engage below 30 but in any case I certainly can run it as low as  3rd gear  and  at   or above 30 mph and  with no surging. The street I live on is 35 mph speed limit and I run the cruise control just fine at that speed and it is very smooth and stable

It might be that that I had  read about others having that problem and  I read that it was due to the short length of the arm where the cable is attached to  so I  lengthened  the attachment  point  to make it sure it wasn't twitchy when I did my install..
That is my experience.
Same here, No surging & I can use in any gear at about any speed. I also lengthened the arm by about 1 1/4" so maybe that does away with the surging/twitchyness
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 27, 2016, 02:46:29 pm
Pls disregard in my last post where it says "I don't have a foto bucket."  I do now.

I am a bit baffled though cuz I have seen numerous other posts here where people have embedded fotos into their posts.  ???

John
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: Zorlac on February 27, 2016, 04:26:20 pm
Pls disregard in my last post where it says "I don't have a foto bucket."  I do now.

I am a bit baffled though cuz I have seen numerous other posts here where people have embedded fotos into their posts.  ???

John
This works well for me (http://postimage.org/).
Don't know about Rostra's but my Audiovox's work smooth down to 30mph or so on an FJR & a WeeStrom only counting ignition pulses as the clock.
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: Fred_Harmon_TX on February 27, 2016, 05:07:44 pm
I looked at how you attached your cable to the throttle, and that may be part of the reason yours feels too responsive.  I think folks have had the best result by attaching to the very end of the arm on the throttle pulley, as this reduces the amount it moves the throttle. The further out on the arm you attach it, the smoother the result. Some have even extended the arm, as mentioned in some of the posts above.

I believe that by attaching to the throttle pull cable like you have done, is going to make the response too sensitive.  I'd suggest you move it.

Here is where mine is attached. The cable pulls DOWN from the bottom, and it has plenty of travel to keep the bike at any speed I want.

(http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/image/105277847/large.jpg)
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 27, 2016, 06:59:49 pm
I'm beginning to think you are right.  I didn't realize it would be quite so sensitive, but by attaching to the end of the the arm or an even longer arm it will reduce overall loop gain in the system.

The problem I have now, although minor in the big picture, is that I will have to fabricate an entirely new bracket, as the original has been cut and bent to the point of being unusable in any other position.  Oh well.

Thx, John
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: MikeB_CA on February 27, 2016, 07:21:07 pm
I looked at how you attached your cable to the throttle, and that may be part of the reason yours feels too responsive.  I think folks have had the best result by attaching to the very end of the arm on the throttle pulley, as this reduces the amount it moves the throttle. The further out on the arm you attach it, the smoother the result. Some have even extended the arm, as mentioned in some of the posts above.

I believe that by attaching to the throttle pull cable like you have done, is going to make the response too sensitive.  I'd suggest you move it.

Here is where mine is attached. The cable pulls DOWN from the bottom, and it has plenty of travel to keep the bike at any speed I want.

([url]http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/image/105277847/large.jpg[/url])


I agree, think it's best if the cable is directly beneath the arm and out to the end of the arm. I have mine mounted the same way!
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: Bigfoot_16 on February 27, 2016, 08:00:36 pm
The problem I have now, although minor in the big picture, is that I will have to fabricate an entirely new bracket, as the original has been cut and bent to the point of being unusable in any other position.  Oh well.

Thx, John
Just go to Home Depot and buy a new bracket blank with holes in it. You'll have to reroute your cable, too, but you know that already.
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: C14lvr on February 28, 2016, 11:00:30 am
Pls disregard in my last post where it says "I don't have a foto bucket."  I do now.

I am a bit baffled though cuz I have seen numerous other posts here where people have embedded fotos into their posts.  ???

John
This works well for me ([url]http://postimage.org/[/url]).
Don't know about Rostra's but my Audiovox's work smooth down to 30mph or so on an FJR & a WeeStrom only counting ignition pulses as the clock.


Clearification on 2 points here:
1) Rostra claims initial engagement speed as low as 33 mph. My real-world test concurrs.

2) The Audiovox 100 is not an electronic cruise, but rather uses vaccuum.
 It also differs from the electronic Rostra system by allowing the Audiovox to read ignition pulses (coil) as he mentions here. The Rostra cannot. PPM are read 2 ways by a Rostra- VSS, (digital square wave input), or coil/magnets, (analog sine wave input.) I've successfully installed an Audiovox 100 system on a 1999 Honda Valkrye, that has the 6 carbed 1500 GW engine. Worked perfectly, using coil pulses for the input.

Another previously asked question concerned if anyone had calculated the PPM train.
The short answer is yes. VSS number will be slightly less than 38,600 PPM (or 24,000 PPK.) What the exact number is, I don't have the answer. I just know it works using these dip switch settings, and has never been an issue. As long as the PPM train value falls into the range w/o exceeding the numerical value of the setting combination of switches 3-6, it works, and 38,600 ppm settings for VSS is the setting that was chosen for the C14. It also works for the 2005 BMW R1200GS.

When using a coil/magnet analog setup, we calculated the PPM to be around 4800, (best I can recall) on the RT & GS.

Using google, you can find a site that will tell you the number of feet (whatever the OD of your tire size is) that it travels when turning one revolution, and you can mathmatically calculate that into one mile, etc.
I've used this method to acquire the ppm settings for the 2004 BMW 1150RT, which has no VSS.
This setup utilized 5 neodynium magnets, one placed in each front rotor bolt head, with the coil mounted via a bracket to the fork. The 5 magnet points factor into the mathematical equation.

Also, concerning the speed of initial engagement time... the amount of slack in the Rostra cable can make a difference. The angle of approach in which the cable is installed can factor. If the mounting bracket you install at the throttle cam attachment point moves (is not solidly in place,) it can affect it.
I have also noticed that you need to give the system a few seconds between the time you first power it on, and trying to set the cruise. If you turn it on and immediately try to set, it usually won't w/o a little bit of wait time.

I also have my #2 switch turned on, which makes it engage faster. But, I've also noticed an increase of surging, at times, upon engagement, and depending upon the terrain. I've learned not to try to set the cruise when ascending/descending a hill. (Can surge.)

I know a lot of this info I've posted has been additional info, and may seem unnecessary by some, but I felt this might benefit someone else down the road, and help give further insight for troubleshooting.
Just some things I've learned along the way, and thought I'd share for future reference.
Bob
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 28, 2016, 01:53:54 pm
@C14lvr,

Thx.  Your confirmation of those 2 parameters (PPM and sqr/sine) helps to unclutter my thinking.  The other 2 gentlemen Daytona Mike and Zarticus mentioned, as a solution to any"twitchy-ness", lengthening the arm that extends passed the throttle pulleys before attaching the control cable,   This would decrease the sensitivity of the system.  As I have done everything else according to the "standard recipe", I intend to give it a try.

UPDATE:  Found a picture that Daytona_Mike had posted of his ctrl cable attachment and now see why his is behaving as he says.  By extending the cable attachment point so far out, he has effectively halved or more the system gain from what my connection point is.  So, the actuator can move significantly more and the throttle will move very little.
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: C14lvr on February 29, 2016, 03:58:06 am
Cool, John.
I sincerely hope you get yours working correctly!
You'll love this, once you get the bugs worked out.

Coolest farkle I've added. I use mine all the time, and love it.
I also do long range touring /trips a lot with other guys who ride older bikes with only throttle locks.
They always ask me to take the lead and set the cruise!
We actually get better fuel economy, and make better time, while saving us from a lot of tickets!

Hope some of the things we covered helped you get the problem solved!
Ride safe!
Bob
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on February 29, 2016, 02:57:00 pm
C14lvr,

I am of the opinion that CC should be a mandatory component on every vehicle.  I don't travel more than 10 miles on any highway without engaging it on my vehicles so equipped.

cheers, john
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: SilverConnieRider on February 29, 2016, 10:24:47 pm


Coolest farkle I've added. I use mine all the time, and love it.
I also do long range touring /trips a lot with other guys who ride older bikes with only throttle locks.
They always ask me to take the lead and set the cruise!
We actually get better fuel economy, and make better time, while saving us from a lot of tickets!


Bob

I prefer to lead also, only exception is if I didn't know the area  Other wise just like you I would rather lead.
I have found that if someone else leads with no cruise control I'm often adjusting mine or cancelling it or turning it off
because they can't keep a constant speed.  No one (not even me) can compete with a true cruise control -
my cruise (on my bike) works even better than my 4 wheel vehicles.  :great:

C14lvr,

I am of the opinion that CC should be a mandatory component on every vehicle.  I don't travel more than 10 miles on any highway without engaging it on my vehicles so equipped.

cheers, john

MOST people would welcome a cruise control on any bike - and as I have stated before there is no law you have to use it if your didn't want to.
For some reason there are some people that don't want a cruise.  I have to believe that they have never tried one, but it's their choice.

I set mine as soon as I get up to speed, as when I leave my driveway it's a 55 zone.  City driving is when I use it the least.
However my McCruise will set as low as 22 mph (35 kph) so in a 25 mph school zone I have actually set it when traffic was light.
As they double the fine if you get caught speeding in a school zone.

OK back to the regular thread topic.   :truce:
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: jawneelogik on March 02, 2016, 07:43:43 pm
Attention any and all who have followed/contributed to this thread.

I can't believe I'm actually asking this, but I have somehow misplaced a critical part needed in my installation and am appealing to anyone that might NOT have used this particular part for their own install.

The part I'm needing is the "bead chain eyelet coupler."

If anyone still has theirs and is not intending to use it, please PM me (that is if you are interested in selling it.).

Thx, John
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: Sailor_chic on March 03, 2016, 01:08:15 pm
I dont have one of these available. I know of a cruise control business that sells Rostra's on eBay. Perhaps they will have the part that you need.

http://www.ebay.com/usr/kartronix (http://www.ebay.com/usr/kartronix)
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: MikeB_CA on March 03, 2016, 02:52:10 pm
Attention any and all who have followed/contributed to this thread.

I can't believe I'm actually asking this, but I have somehow misplaced a critical part needed in my installation and am appealing to anyone that might NOT have used this particular part for their own install.

The part I'm needing is the "bead chain eyelet coupler."

If anyone still has theirs and is not intending to use it, please PM me (that is if you are interested in selling it.).

Thx, John

I might...I'll check when I get home tonight.
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: denver6 on March 05, 2016, 01:32:00 am
...Some have even extended the arm, as mentioned in some of the posts above...

I would like to see how some have extended the arm. Are there any pics of that? Or a description? Thanks!  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: Zarticus on March 05, 2016, 01:56:57 am
Attention any and all who have followed/contributed to this thread.

I can't believe I'm actually asking this, but I have somehow misplaced a critical part needed in my installation and am appealing to anyone that might NOT have used this particular part for their own install.

The part I'm needing is the "bead chain eyelet coupler."

If anyone still has theirs and is not intending to use it, please PM me (that is if you are interested in selling it.).

Thx, John
I used the supplied cable instead of the chain
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: Zarticus on March 05, 2016, 02:02:02 am
...Some have even extended the arm, as mentioned in some of the posts above...

I would like to see how some have extended the arm. Are there any pics of that? Or a description? Thanks!  :) :) :)
:beerchug:
Title: Re: Rostra Cruise Control Surging
Post by: denver6 on March 05, 2016, 02:09:08 am
Thanks. Simpler than I imagined.  :beerchug: