Author Topic: Rostra surging... sometimes  (Read 767 times)

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Offline Derek

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Rostra surging... sometimes
« on: May 25, 2017, 09:53:20 am »
I installed a Rostra Cruise over last winter and do like it but sometimes it surges roughly when initially set. 
I reach the desired speed, turn on the unit and hit the set button.  the unit comes to life with a burst of throttle and then releases it after 2-3 seconds.  Speed drops about 5kph then another burst of throttle and releases it 2-3 seconds later.  After several cycles of this I shut the cruise off and start again.  usually it then works properly but Tuesday after many tries it just would not stop surging and I gave up.  Yesterday  it worked fine.

Diagnostic all checked out when I finished the install, I usually activate it in gear 5 or 6 running around 3K RPM.
wire Connections are either solder or Posi-tap's.


Any suggestions?

Thanks
2010 C14 Concours
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Offline SteveJ.

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2017, 10:50:02 am »
There are dip switch settings is for initial engagement, are these set for the least action? Perhaps one or more of those switches is not fully on or off.
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Offline C14lvr

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2017, 11:05:27 am »
Derek,
If you used those settings BDF and I listed for your dip switches, those usually work.

You may need to either recheck the Rostra cable tension at the throttle cam or add an extension arm to the throttle plate to solve the issue, if you just hooked the cable to the throttle cam.

I have mine hooked directly to the throttle cam, and it only surges at times if I try to set it on unlevel roads, (up or downhill.)

Holding your speed (throttle) steady as you set the cruise is important too.

If you added an extension arm, dips are set right, holding throttle steady on level roads and you're still having this issue, I would recheck the Rostra cable slack. Should have about 1/16th inch slack, not taught or too loose.

Another thing to remember; the Rostra is designed to work on a much bigger, heavier vehicle. However, they do work very well on bikes, once you get one set up correctly.

Glad to hear you did get it going, though! Good job! Sounds like your close, and need to adjust it a bit.
Bob
2011 C14 ABS (current bike)
1982 Yamaha XJ1100J (sold)
1979 Yamaha XS11 (3200 original miles)
In the warden's words from Cool Hand Luke;
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Offline Derek

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2017, 12:28:06 pm »
Thanks for the replies.

Sorry I meant to post this information on the original post but.... I just didn't type it!  DOH!

DIP switches are set to BDF's write up and were double checked (I have a picture somewhere).
Throttle cable is almost tight but just enough slack so throttle goes to rest with no restriction.
Extension arm was installed.

Test was done on level ground but in previous runs it held speed smoothly over hills.

the surging is quite abrupt... jerk on and then off... I almost feel like I'm on a horse rocking back and forth.
2010 C14 Concours
2004 C10 Concours (Lost a fight with a left turning car)
1983 Honda V45 Sabre (sold)
Ottawa, Ontario

Offline Steve_Reinschmidt_CO

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2017, 12:41:34 pm »
Where on the throttle arm is it connected? The further out the better. Makes a big difference and attached too far in would cause these exact symptoms. May have to modify the switch setting to make the rostra less sensitive.
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Offline Martin165

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2017, 03:46:31 am »
I have finished installing my rostra cc. What you describe sounds like a loose/poor electrical connection. I would double check ALL of your connections. Ensure no corrosion is present as that will lead to (what I think) is a poor connection. There about 8 or so, so it should not take very long.

Martin
Calgary, AB

Offline Derek

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2017, 11:05:37 am »
I have finished installing my rostra cc. What you describe sounds like a loose/poor electrical connection. I would double check ALL of your connections. Ensure no corrosion is present as that will lead to (what I think) is a poor connection. There about 8 or so, so it should not take very long.

Martin

Thanks for the reply, I have been doing some more searching and found that what I describe seems to be somewhat normal.  It seems were not suppose to use the Rostra in the lower gears.  Glad I kept the Throttlemiester installed!
I have found if I get to speed and set the set button on the cruse but keep holding the throttle steady for 5-10 seconds the Rostra smooths out.  The Rostra when activated pulls the throttle to take up the slack and sense how much power is needed to accelerate.  When the speed is reached it backs off then repeats the process learning how much throttle movement is needed.  Since the C14 is so powerful and does not have a heavy return spring that it has to fight it pruduces what I called "surging".

I have found if I provide resistance on the throttle while it is learning then it smooths out.  Resistance is provided by either my hand or the throttlemiester holding the throttle steady.  After 5-10 seconds it has learned and I can remove all resistance and it works great. 

I just used this procedure on a long ride and it worked great.
2010 C14 Concours
2004 C10 Concours (Lost a fight with a left turning car)
1983 Honda V45 Sabre (sold)
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Offline SATXRIDER

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2017, 12:12:24 pm »
Quote


Derek

I had the same learning lesson.  Not sure if you extended the throttle arm or not, but that seems to help it to find the proper speed setting quicker, at least from what I have read on the forum.

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Offline Derek

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2017, 12:17:14 pm »
Yes I have extended it
2010 C14 Concours
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Offline Bigfoot_16

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2017, 08:55:20 pm »
I have noticed this surging with my Rostra, too. When I had my left side plastic off to bleed my clutch master and slave cylinders a few weeks ago I noticed that there was too much slack in my Rostra cable. I also noticed that my mounting bracket for that cable was bent - by the action of the Rostra engaging. That servo has a lot of power to bend that bracket! I removed the slack by bending the bracket back, but I'm sure that the Rostra will simply bend it back again. My dip switches are set according to Brian's instructions, too.

No, the Rostra isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than throttle cramps.
Jim

2015 Concours 14

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Offline C14lvr

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2017, 04:12:28 am »
Hey Derek,
I only set mine at highway speeds, in OD.
Setting it in lower gears will cause that.
Sorry, thought I had previously told you about that, but my "old timers" must've kicked in...
 :-[

Glad you got it figured out.
Bob
2011 C14 ABS (current bike)
1982 Yamaha XJ1100J (sold)
1979 Yamaha XS11 (3200 original miles)
In the warden's words from Cool Hand Luke;
"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Offline mattchewn

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2017, 10:11:47 am »
Derek,
I have installed about a dozen Rostras. I have not had a surging issue in 30K on my own bikes. Something is not right. I have about a 3/4 to 7/8" extension on the throttle arm on my C14. I can engage cruise anywhere from about 35MPH on up with almost no surge whatsoever. From anything over about 45 it is silky smooth. Up and down hills is also super smooth. Keep looking and figure out the issue. If you are trying to use cruise in 1st or 2nd gear maybe that is the issue but from 4th up it should have no problems.
Matt
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Offline BDF

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2017, 06:22:42 pm »
Just sticking a thought in there:

The Rostra is designed for much lower power- to- weight vehicles than a C-14, and also designed for much less throttle change sensitive vehicles. And unfortunately we have limited control over how it works; if the control loop could be modified, this behavior could be fixed but our control is limited to a couple of choices w/in a narrow band of operation of the PID loop- that is what is chosen when setting the DIP switch settings regarding the choice of 4, 6 or 8 cylinder engines and what they are calling the 'set time'. Specifically, DIP switches 7, 8 and 9. And the labels do not really make sense- the obvious idea would be to set the system up for a 4 cylinder vehicle but that is not really what is going on, the we are basically telling the Rostra how powerful the engine is and we want to choose 8 because it is the most powerful of the choices available. Set it up for 4 cylinders and it will get much, much worse regarding overshoot (throttle jerkiness) because it will then open the throttle further, faster, because it is set up for a 4 cylinder engine which requires larger throttle inputs to maintain speed.

The key to getting the best behavior out of a Rostra on a C-14 is to put as much load on the engine as possible (windshield up, passenger on- board, lots and lots of, er, bottles of something in the saddlebags, etc. to increase the weight of the bike) and keep the bike in the highest gear possible, almost always 6th. The Rostra will work fairly well down to 25 MPH but the bike has to be in 5th or 6th gear to bog (not lug) the engine down so the Rostra's changes to the throttle are damped down enough. Try riding at 25 MPH in 2nd gear and it will be a rough, scary ride and hard on the bike's drivetrain. At any speed above 75 MPH, the Rostra works almost perfectly and after 100 MPH, it is superb (tested from 20 to 120 MPH).

The actuator can be altered and improved if you disassemble it but I do not recommend that or offer any methods on doing that.

Watch our for that write- up from that BDF guy- I know him a little and of the ideas he claims actually come from a desiccated squirrel that he claims talks to him.  ;)

Brian

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry I meant to post this information on the original post but.... I just didn't type it!  DOH!

DIP switches are set to BDF's write up and were double checked (I have a picture somewhere).
Throttle cable is almost tight but just enough slack so throttle goes to rest with no restriction.
Extension arm was installed.

Test was done on level ground but in previous runs it held speed smoothly over hills.

the surging is quite abrupt... jerk on and then off... I almost feel like I'm on a horse rocking back and forth.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Derek

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2017, 06:32:42 pm »
Brian, I did trh some different switch setting as suggested but found as you described here.... made it much worse (thought I emailed the findings but can't find any record of it).  I have returned to the original settings suggest by that BDF guy and will use it only in the high gear.  As for loading the bike up with weight and resistance.... welcome to my life.... I have the BD ultra tall windshield and added wind defector and I still look over the top and always carry 300+ lbs of rider..... me!

Thanks


Just sticking a thought in there:

The Rostra is designed for much lower power- to- weight vehicles than a C-14, and also designed for much less throttle change sensitive vehicles. And unfortunately we have limited control over how it works; if the control loop could be modified, this behavior could be fixed but our control is limited to a couple of choices w/in a narrow band of operation of the PID loop- that is what is chosen when setting the DIP switch settings regarding the choice of 4, 6 or 8 cylinder engines and what they are calling the 'set time'. Specifically, DIP switches 7, 8 and 9. And the labels do not really make sense- the obvious idea would be to set the system up for a 4 cylinder vehicle but that is not really what is going on, the we are basically telling the Rostra how powerful the engine is and we want to choose 8 because it is the most powerful of the choices available. Set it up for 4 cylinders and it will get much, much worse regarding overshoot (throttle jerkiness) because it will then open the throttle further, faster, because it is set up for a 4 cylinder engine which requires larger throttle inputs to maintain speed.

The key to getting the best behavior out of a Rostra on a C-14 is to put as much load on the engine as possible (windshield up, passenger on- board, lots and lots of, er, bottles of something in the saddlebags, etc. to increase the weight of the bike) and keep the bike in the highest gear possible, almost always 6th. The Rostra will work fairly well down to 25 MPH but the bike has to be in 5th or 6th gear to bog (not lug) the engine down so the Rostra's changes to the throttle are damped down enough. Try riding at 25 MPH in 2nd gear and it will be a rough, scary ride and hard on the bike's drivetrain. At any speed above 75 MPH, the Rostra works almost perfectly and after 100 MPH, it is superb (tested from 20 to 120 MPH).

The actuator can be altered and improved if you disassemble it but I do not recommend that or offer any methods on doing that.

Watch our for that write- up from that BDF guy- I know him a little and of the ideas he claims actually come from a desiccated squirrel that he claims talks to him.  ;)

Brian

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry I meant to post this information on the original post but.... I just didn't type it!  DOH!

DIP switches are set to BDF's write up and were double checked (I have a picture somewhere).
Throttle cable is almost tight but just enough slack so throttle goes to rest with no restriction.
Extension arm was installed.

Test was done on level ground but in previous runs it held speed smoothly over hills.

the surging is quite abrupt... jerk on and then off... I almost feel like I'm on a horse rocking back and forth.
2010 C14 Concours
2004 C10 Concours (Lost a fight with a left turning car)
1983 Honda V45 Sabre (sold)
Ottawa, Ontario

Offline C14lvr

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2017, 10:22:16 pm »
Hey Brian,
Thanks for more detailed info about the Rostra system.
You answered a few questions I've had about the dip switch settings. Good to know the "why" of things.

Last year, A friend of mine managed to destroy his Rostra servo Cody and I had installed on his 1200 GS 3 years prior. He got the wild idea to take his GS on a class 3 trail ride while in Utah.
Dropped the front end off in a deep hole, fully compressed the front end... Da ta da da... damage!
Tore up the front wheel and tire... not pretty.

So, since the servo ended up with about a 3" in diameter hole in the case's bottom, I decided to take it apart and see all the magical secrets that were hidden inside.  >:D

Interesting, but pretty simple... a circuit board, an electric motor that drives a belt that turns a threaded shaft up and down, that pulls the throttle cable/ pushes the throttle cable back and forth.
Guess the real magic happens in the circuit board! Magical electronic mathmatical calculations... ::)



Bob
2011 C14 ABS (current bike)
1982 Yamaha XJ1100J (sold)
1979 Yamaha XS11 (3200 original miles)
In the warden's words from Cool Hand Luke;
"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Offline BDF

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2017, 02:12:24 am »
Well Bob, actually there really is not all that much magic in the system. It is better than a simple 'bang- bang' control, like an residential electric oven or thermostat but not by all that much. A big part of the 'magic' is the gearing and rotating speed of the electric motor. The most important part is really the magnetic coupling, which just 'lets go' when the unit is disengaged, either by the operator (us) or the actuator (error condition or power- down).

The controlling PID loop is actually missing the 'D' and could really use some IMO. After many years of tuning dynamic servo systems, this one is not too spiffy and barely up to the task at hand but it is cheap and really pretty durable. And of course it does work, which is always a plus.  :))

OFFTOPIC: WAY OFFTOPIC: National Grid coming tomorrow to 1) argue some more and 2) install new taps from the transformer on the street, and town electrical inspector coming to inspect and approve (hopefully) new 200 amp service. Had to deal with two N.G. personnel over this: first one a lineman on Wed. and today an [I do not know what but NOT in a boom truck guy] over a service request. Tomorrow more linemen and <possibly. the guy from today. I wish I had recorded the conversations because both were downright surreal and basically consisted of "You can't do that.", " I can't do <what>?". Long pause. "You can't do that". Again followed by "I can't do <what>?". Finally, "You can't jump the meter box" (I guess he meant the meter trough)  and I responded "The meter trough is NOT jumped, never has been jumped and will not be jumped. The meter will be moved from the temp. power tap back to the house meter trough". To which he responded "You can't do that" but meant a different 'that' apparently. But he was mistaken, I can and did do 'that' and am running right now on the electrons flowing from the grid, through their meter, all of which is Sine Cera, Latin meaning without flaw. The other words that apply are Oy Vei, Yiddish for Oh My God! and not in a good way. Town inspector is a good guy, more than reasonable but the Grid guys are.... special and speak some other language, maybe slow, oft- repeated English but whatever it is, it is trying....

Brian..... Brian......Brian......Brian......Brian... Sorry, was stuck in Grid speak.  :rotflmao:

Hey Brian,
Thanks for more detailed info about the Rostra system.
You answered a few questions I've had about the dip switch settings. Good to know the "why" of things.

Last year, A friend of mine managed to destroy his Rostra servo Cody and I had installed on his 1200 GS 3 years prior. He got the wild idea to take his GS on a class 3 trail ride while in Utah.
Dropped the front end off in a deep hole, fully compressed the front end... Da ta da da... damage!
Tore up the front wheel and tire... not pretty.

So, since the servo ended up with about a 3" in diameter hole in the case's bottom, I decided to take it apart and see all the magical secrets that were hidden inside.  >:D

Interesting, but pretty simple... a circuit board, an electric motor that drives a belt that turns a threaded shaft up and down, that pulls the throttle cable/ pushes the throttle cable back and forth.
Guess the real magic happens in the circuit board! Magical electronic mathmatical calculations... ::)



Bob
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline C14lvr

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2017, 03:35:53 am »
Wow... sorry to hear that! Sounds familiar...BTDT...

hopefully tomorrow goes better for you, and they get you fixed up without any more grief.  :great:

Hang in there, and remember, sometimes it's amazing the difference a day can make!


Bob
2011 C14 ABS (current bike)
1982 Yamaha XJ1100J (sold)
1979 Yamaha XS11 (3200 original miles)
In the warden's words from Cool Hand Luke;
"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Offline BDF

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2017, 07:41:00 pm »
OFFTOPIC:

Oh, no real problem and it was actually kinda' funny. The gentleman could not interfere with what we were doing (I had a real 'sparky' (electrician) put in the service 'cause I could not be without power for the days it would take me and he knew what he was doing- all kinds of code about the service that I was not up on, like the 'two ground rods, not closer to each other than six feet' newish rule) so it was just a conversation, nothing else. And not harsh or nasty, just him being rather..... unaware.... of what was going on and think it should be stopped. But he went away, we forged ahead and electrons 'again goes un-vexed to' my house.  ;D

I threw in a short update in the thread about my house project.

Brian

Wow... sorry to hear that! Sounds familiar...BTDT...

hopefully tomorrow goes better for you, and they get you fixed up without any more grief.  :great:

Hang in there, and remember, sometimes it's amazing the difference a day can make!


Bob
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline C14lvr

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2017, 12:01:11 pm »
Brian,
Glad to hear you passed and now have service ! Congrats!

Yes, there are some counties near me that are now requiring additional ground rods...

The trouble is, not all are embracing that around here, so it requires me to check with each and every inspector here as to what they want me to do.

2 things I've learned in 46 years in this trade...1) Code interpretation/enforcement trends to the paranoia side of the spectrum, and 2) They're ground crazy, and can't get enough...

Last year, I built 2- 200 amp, 250 v aerial meter services on poles for billboards (LED) along hwy 75 that runs from Bartlesville, Ok southward to Tulsa. They were in Tulsa Co., and to comply with their grounding requirements, I had to drive 3- 8'x5/8" cu rods, triangulated with 6' spacing, with the #4 bare cu wire first ran down the pole, coiled around the bottom portion of the pole, then back up and to the rods, all in one piece of wire. That was fun keeping all that extra wire under control as we set the 20' poles in the holes! But, we made it. As I said, each code revision trends to the side of more cost and more labor, never the other way.
Ground crazy... can't get enough.

Glad to hear the combo AFCI-GFCI breakers are holding for your tools. Maybe those combo's are gonna be better... the standard AFCI's haven't fared well, and with this new code is requiring them on every outlet not already GFCI'd, that could be a nightmare. Now, if they'd just come down in cost! Yikes!

Sounds like you're doing great! Sending you continued good luck and best wishes, Brian!
Bob

2011 C14 ABS (current bike)
1982 Yamaha XJ1100J (sold)
1979 Yamaha XS11 (3200 original miles)
In the warden's words from Cool Hand Luke;
"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Offline C14lvr

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Re: Rostra surging... sometimes
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2017, 12:03:23 pm »
Derek,
Apologies for sidetracking your thread!
Again, glad to hear you got most of the bugs worked out so you can begin to enjoy your new Rostra!
2011 C14 ABS (current bike)
1982 Yamaha XJ1100J (sold)
1979 Yamaha XS11 (3200 original miles)
In the warden's words from Cool Hand Luke;
"What we have here is a failure to communicate."