Author Topic: That pesky low fuel warning and the disappearance of the range function.  (Read 38044 times)

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Offline BDF

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It is a 'return- less' or one pipe system. The fuel comes out of the tank at the correct pressure (42 PSI if memory serves) and only moves one way- toward the bike. There is no return line. The pump itself makes 'too much' pressure and there is an integral fuel pressure regulator that literally throws the excess 'overboard'. I might have some photos around if anyone is interested but it is a modular style fuel pump with all the parts (pump, pressure regulator, electronics) brought together by the plastic housing that we are calling 'the fuel pump'. The actual fuel pump is really quite small, not much bigger than your thumb, and is common to millions of other vehicles. In fact, I believe there are only a very few different fuel pumps used in all vehicles and once the outer housing is removed, they all are interchangeable, again within those very few types used.

Brian

We might as well cover this topic completely. >:D  Does anybody know if the C-14 returns fuel back to the tank, or is it using a “Return-less” fuel system?  I think if it’s the former, it will increase heat as the fuel passes close to the engine on the fuel rails.  The heat generated in the remaining wet fuel could be more than just what is generated by the pump.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Jeff Kerkow

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Just to clarify this took 10 seconds with the tank on the bike. I had taken the tank off before so I new where the wire and plug were located so I did not have to fish for them.

Glad the install went well for you.

I would just like to point out that there is no need nor any advantage whatsoever in removing the fuel tank to install this device. The wiring is readily accessible with the fuel tank in place and everything else in place on the motorcycle. I just don't want anyone to get the idea that removing the fuel tank is needed or even helps with the installation.

Brian

Farkle installed. It took less then ten seconds. I have already had my tank off so the plug in was readily accessible. Now i just have to run the tank empty to test.

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Offline mikethacker

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Ill buy one please.  mike

Offline Mad River Marc

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Is it possible to modify this Farlke to add a separate LED on the dash that comes on when the low fuel warning would normally come on?

That way you still get a warning light and don't have the annoyance of the dashboard :)
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Offline Gypsy JR

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Is it possible to modify this Farlke to add a separate LED on the dash that comes on when the low fuel warning would normally come on?

That way you still get a warning light and don't have the annoyance of the dashboard :)

Outstanding idea !   :great:
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Offline BDF

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Yes but it will be somewhat costly. Also it would require some fairing removal and general tinkering with the bike to install. Not a bad thing but I have found most people want easily installed farkles so it really is a pretty big jump from the circuit I have now to one requiring stringing wiring and probably drilling a hole in the dash to install an LED, or at least to install an LED neatly. I did come up with a neat little widget work- around for the dash display but it again got complicated and pricey.

So there you have it in a nutshell: the various wants we all have coupled with the various costs we all do not want to pay. As the provider of these widgets, I have to weigh (read: guess) what others might want and then carefully research and estimate (again read: guess) what it might sell for. I have a fertile imagination and a bit of skill so trust me, I can come up with really neat farkles all day long (and do) but they are usually not cost effective. For example, I am currently kicking around a long distance comfort idea that I think will work really well and I would love to own BUT I do not believe it could be marketed to enough people to recover the costs of tooling to manufacturer it. Bummer too 'cause I would really like one and think one of YOU FOLKS should make them at a slight loss so the rest of us can enjoy it.  ;D ;D  The real downside to a lot of these types of ideas is that everyone is a little bit unhappy- the customer thinks the price is too high and the provider is either making a pathetic amount of money (well below minimum wage) or breaking even.

So back to your question: could an external indicator be added to my circuit to alert the rider? Yes but I doubt it would be feasible.

The only real way to deal with this problem is the same way we have generated our current high standard of living- through the magic of mass production and economy of scale. Trust me, a knife and fork would cost a tremendous amount then they do now if the town blacksmith where cranking them out with a hammer by the 'one- zies'. Pssst.... hey buddy, wanna' buy 100,000 C-14 dash displays?  ::)

"Fast, cheap, good : pick any two. Then pick one from the remaining two 'cause you ain't gettin' both of those at the same time."

Brian


Is it possible to modify this Farlke to add a separate LED on the dash that comes on when the low fuel warning would normally come on?

That way you still get a warning light and don't have the annoyance of the dashboard :)
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline wayne_jenkins_CT

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Ahhh, BDF, when I saw you at the Spring Fling with the gas gauge Farckle in hand what I saw in my mind was you wearing a flat top straw hat, arm garters, white shirt, standing in the back of a covered wagon with an Indian side kick saying" this is the last Chance to get one and with out it your life will suck"
        Best of luck with a good idea ,I would purchase one but my wife of 55 years said" the next thing you buy  for THAT bike will be a FOR SALE SIGN!

Offline 4Bikes

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I would purchase one but my wife of 55 years said" the next thing you buy  for THAT bike will be a FOR SALE SIGN!

That’s a Farkle killer statement, if ever there was one.  From now on, I suggest calling it a "repair" of the “Fuel Assessment Remaining Kawi Level Enhancement.”  It still spells Farkle by way of acronym, so you won’t be lying?  :D
Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline firehawk618

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I love how the fuel pump heat issue will always come up when people start talking about running a tank low on fuel.  Doesn't matter if it's a motorcycle forum, dodge forum, honda forum, the pissing match starts all the same.  lol

Anyhoo, I will say it's great to eliminate the low fuel hijacking of your distance to empty function.

Any my $0.02 on the fuel pump heat issue, who cares, has anyone shown a definite pattern of fuel pumps dying due to all this heat from running a tank low?  Nope I haven't come across one and even if I had I'd still continue my riding / driving habits.

BDF, good job offering this mod to people at a great price.

2012 C14 Black

Offline 4Bikes

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Any my $0.02 on the fuel pump heat issue, who cares, has anyone shown a definite pattern of fuel pumps dying due to all this heat from running a tank low?  Nope I haven't come across one and even if I had I'd still continue my riding / driving habits.


Good point. The same could be said about burned valves, melted instruments, failure of a plugged tire, seized spark plugs, Dino oil (hold the dreaded oil thread comments).   No one knows for sure the risks, but if it can happen, or happens once,  it can apply to many I suppose.  There will always be folks that fear the worst, and do what they can to improve the odds.  I think I'm one of those because I'm ATGATT and checked my valves.  

In this case, with this mod, I think my odds of crashing while struggling to cancel the fuel alarm that hogs the display functionality, outweighs the risk of a fuel pump failure.
Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline lather

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In this case, with this mod, I think my odds of crashing while struggling to cancel the fuel alarm that hogs the display functionality, outweighs the risk of a fuel pump failure.
I don't see any connection at all between this mod and risk of fuel pump failure. Installing this mod will have no impact on how far I go between fill ups, it will just make it easier to plan them. Just because I have better range information does not mean I have to change my re-fueling behavior.

Offline BDF

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First off, thanks for the kind words.

As to the pump issue, of course I have not done any tests or temperature measurements so this is just my opinion. As long as there is any fuel in the system and the pump is still pumping fuel, the temperature will not become critical on any components. Nothing about the pump is sensitive to heat; it is a very simple turbine pump that only has two points of contact and those are the bearing points. As there is no side thrust on the bearings, even with a lousy (OK, terrible) lubricant like gasoline they should run forever.

No matter how little fuel there is in the tank, it is taken in at the bottom of the fuel pump and the excess is pumped out of the pump and will circulate around at least some part of the fuel tank. That alone will cool the pump. Whenever the pump is running there is excess fuel being pumped and that excess simply circulates around inside the fuel tank, always cooling it.

Running the pump dry is a different story though. Now there is no lubricant for the pump and the pump shaft is free to rest on one side or more probably, bang around inside the housing. That is why all modern vehicles turn off the fuel pump once the engine is no longer running- on a C-14 the pump will only run three seconds beyond the point the engine stops. We can all hear this when you turn on the ignition; the fuel pump runs as soon as the ignition is turned on but then stops and will not start again until the engine is started (or the ign. is turned off and back on again). This protects the fuel pump when the vehicle runs out of fuel- the fuel pump shuts down very quickly.

Brian

I love how the fuel pump heat issue will always come up when people start talking about running a tank low on fuel.  Doesn't matter if it's a motorcycle forum, dodge forum, honda forum, the pissing match starts all the same.  lol

Anyhoo, I will say it's great to eliminate the low fuel hijacking of your distance to empty function.

Any my $0.02 on the fuel pump heat issue, who cares, has anyone shown a definite pattern of fuel pumps dying due to all this heat from running a tank low?  Nope I haven't come across one and even if I had I'd still continue my riding / driving habits.

BDF, good job offering this mod to people at a great price.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Pistole

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I think my odds of crashing while struggling to cancel the fuel alarm that hogs the display functionality

- almost crashed here too !!

.

Offline BDF

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At long last, I have both inventory and now a web page where these things can be purchased. The web page is not complete yet (no information) but the purchase functions DO work. So for those who were asking for one of these, there is now a line to get your hands on one. I think.  ::)  There is also an inventory control function in place so that if the stock runs out they will not be available for purchase. If you can purchase one it means I have them in inventory and they will go out the next business day. Sorry about the delay but this here wed design thingy has a learning curve apparently....

www.InControlne.com

Brian
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline BDF

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Sorry about this but my website is having some type of trouble with PayPal- so the purchase function is not working. Will post when they are up again and you really can buy them.... really.

 :-[

Brian
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline S Smith

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Sorry about this but my website is having some type of trouble with PayPal- so the purchase function is not working. Will post when they are up again and you really can buy them.... really.

 :-[

Brian

Damn!  Just missed the impulse buying moment "by that much."
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Offline BDF

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Right on the brink of a verge were ya'?  Hey, your bike was wearing one of those tricky circuits at Bedford- I used it as a demo on how easy it was to install. Much, much easier than setting up to sell them on-line in my experience.  :o

Brian



Damn!  Just missed the impulse buying moment "by that much."
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Roger M.

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Dammit!! Was going to order one!!! Make sure to keep us posted when pay pal is ready, want one bad!!!  >:D


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Offline BDF

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I have done / tried everything I can think of and no go- there is something fundamentally wrong on the payment side of things. After working with the vendor for hours there was no resolution- they were nice enough and really did try but the people available just did not have the expertise to find and fix the problem. The next level is 'Merchant support' which will re- open on Monday <sigh>.

The low fuel warning is just annoying but the KiPass bypass has saved a few people's proverbial bacon. If anyone needs one of those sooner than the middle of next week, I can do something to get one out. E-mail me (not a PM but an e-mail) and we can do something. Otherwise I hope to have this all resolved by midnight Monday.... with a little luck, maybe even this coming Monday.  ???

Brian

Dammit!! Was going to order one!!! Make sure to keep us posted when pay pal is ready, want one bad!!!  >:D
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Roger M.

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Hey Brian, what's the kipass bypass?


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Offline BDF

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OFFTOPIC:

When you press down on the stove knob key, that closes a switch that activates the bike, which in turn probes (easy boys!) for a valid fob w/in range. That switch has a nasty tendency to stick down or "ON" once in a while. KiPass being the clever system that it is works around that too by shutting down to protect the bike from killing the battery. It will not reactivate until that circuit is opened and closed again but the problem is that it is now stuck shut and you cannot open it. There are several.... ahem, 'adjustments' you can try to fix it with my very favorite being to smash tap a rock against the switch housing in an attempt to un-stick the stuck switch. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. What does work is if you open that circuit and then close it again via some other method- so I conjured up the KiPass activation switch Bypass. You pull the fuse, replace the fuse, the LCD lights up, you turn the key, start the bike and ride off. It is vastly better than that other method which involves a tow truck. There are several folks around here who have been stranded by said pesky switch (that's your cue Bob  :D  ).

I will put up more information on what it is / what it does on the web page after 1) I get the rest of the mechanics of the pages working and 2) I figure out how to make a scrolling window w/in a page.

Brian

Hey Brian, what's the kipass bypass?
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Roger M.

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Ahhhh....I see. Gotta have both!!!  >:D


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Offline BDF

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Well, maybe. Don't forget, we have a new and very exciting farkle coming out in the next few days. Not sure who's gonna' like or need that one....

Brian

Ahhhh....I see. Gotta have both!!!  >:D
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline BDF

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The site is now (10 July 2013) working and accepting payments for all your finer C-14 farkling needs.

www.incontrolne.com

Brian

Ahhhh....I see. Gotta have both!!!  >:D
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline lather

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You've got $$$ :)