Author Topic: Tripping traffic lights ?  (Read 6910 times)

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Offline sitiger

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 04:50:21 pm »
Just had to do the research after seeing posting that there were states that enacted motorcycle traffic light laws. So here are the states according to USA Today.
In May, South Carolina became the seventh state to give motorcyclists license to proceed with caution after stopping when the device that causes the light to change from red to green doesn't activate, according to Imre Szauter, government affairs manager for the American Motorcyclist Association.

North Carolina passed a similar law in 2007. Wisconsin (2006), Idaho (2006) Arkansas (2005), Tennessee (2003) and Minnesota (2002), all have passed laws the past six years, Szauter said. Bills have been introduced for the same purpose in Georgia, Missouri and Oklahoma, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures and the legislative websites for those states

Thanks for the info - I live in the Charleston,SC  area and fight this issue a lot. I usually just hall a** after a while but this will definitely help.

Now, what can we do about parking garage gates when you absolutely have to go in one (I always try not too but was forced too in Greenville recently and almost killed the driver behind me who was honking his horn at me because the gate wouldn't open).

Any help there would be appreciated.
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Offline Necron99

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 08:46:41 pm »
I just opened an electronic ticket with the city I live in, where i previously hadn't contacted them about a light issue.  I did the ticket online.  They CALLED ME in an hour, and  have already dispatched someone to the light.  WOW.

Offline llmotoll

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2012, 09:27:28 pm »
need more data.... kinda understand the main point your maikng. But, What?
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Offline Brian_Kellett_NH

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2012, 12:11:26 am »
My C10 was bad about these light sensors, but so far, I've had no problem with the C14. 

If I do run into trouble, I just look for cops and go when I have a clear shot.

Offline Bruiser

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2012, 01:56:11 am »
The magnets DO work.  My old C10 always had problems tripping lights til I installed  a magnet to the underside.  Don't use the expensive ones sold in bike parts stores, go to any home improvement store, get a magnet about the size of a bar of soap, and save some money.  My new C14, by the way has not needed a magnet, as its size triggers lights w/o fail.
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Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2012, 11:52:55 am »
The sensors read mass, not pressure, not magnetic field.

If magnets work, it is because the sensor is reading the mass of the ferrous material in the magnet.

The problem is, if they calibrate them too high, they will easily work for a small car (engine, exhaust, floor pan, frame, bumpers) but not a bike (whole lot of plastic and aluminum, not close to the ground).

And once they are in the roadbed, its too late to want them re-calibrated, they have to be dug up.

Sometimes putting the sidestand down puts just enough more mass close to trip the sensor.

My ZX14 was notorious for not tripping sensors. The Connie is better.
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Offline Necron99

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2012, 11:24:50 am »

If magnets work, it is because the sensor is reading the mass of the ferrous material in the magnet.


And once they are in the roadbed, its too late to want them re-calibrated, they have to be dug up.



The first is true.  The 2nd is not.  Most of them have essentially a rheostat in the control box.  They can turn up the sensitivity.  As I stated, I've had now 5 different cities do just that on lights that I could not get to trip, and VIOLA, they tripped the next time I ran them over.  I ASSURE you, they did not dig up the sensors for me.

Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2012, 11:27:13 am »

If magnets work, it is because the sensor is reading the mass of the ferrous material in the magnet.


And once they are in the roadbed, its too late to want them re-calibrated, they have to be dug up.


The first is true.  The 2nd is not.  Most of them have essentially a rheostat in the control box.  They can turn up the sensitivity.  As I stated, I've had now 5 different cities do just that on lights that I could not get to trip, and VIOLA, they tripped the next time I ran them over.  I ASSURE you, they did not dig up the sensors for me.

I can only talk about the ones in Maryland. There is no control box.
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Offline X

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2012, 11:33:27 am »
I never knew my state had the red light law until I looked up the states who allow it. There is one light on the way to work that at times hassles me and now I know that if needed i can go through it ( safely of course ).  :great:
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Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2012, 01:47:14 pm »
I never knew my state had the red light law until I looked up the states who allow it. There is one light on the way to work that at times hassles me and now I know that if needed i can go through it ( safely of course ).  :great:

Most States have a law in the vehicle code which considers that sometimes lights don't work right.
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Offline Fred_Wa2gzw

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2012, 03:14:20 pm »
I think that you guys are referring to the sensors that have loops in the asphalt.  This method of traffic control or detection is known as an inductive-loop detector.  Inductive loop detection is probably the most common used in the USA although there are others.  The way they work is that an oscillator generates a frequency which is dependant on the loop.  That frequency is detected by another circuit.  If the inductive field changes, so does the oscillator frequency which is than detected.  This change in frequency starts a chain of events(timers,etc.) that will cause the light to change. 

Put another way vehicles passing over or stopped within the detection area of an inductive-loop detector decrease the inductance of the loop. The electronics unit senses this event as a decrease in frequency and sends a pulse to the controller signifying the passage or presence of a vehicle.

There are many documents on the internet for those that are non believers- just google inductive-loop detectors.

Other methods of traffic detection include the following but for traffic light or gate acctivation the inductive loop is the most common.

Magnetometer (two-axis fluxgate magnetometer),
Magnetic (induction or search coil magnetometer
Microwave radar
Active infrared (laser radar)
Passive infrared
Ultrasonic
Acoustic
Video image processor

Fred
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 03:25:35 pm by Fred_Wa2gzw »

Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2012, 03:49:59 pm »
I think that you guys are referring to the sensors that have loops in the asphalt.  This method of traffic control or detection is known as an inductive-loop detector.  Inductive loop detection is probably the most common used in the USA although there are others.  The way they work is that an oscillator generates a frequency which is dependant on the loop.  That frequency is detected by another circuit.  If the inductive field changes, so does the oscillator frequency which is than detected.  This change in frequency starts a chain of events(timers,etc.) that will cause the light to change. 

Put another way vehicles passing over or stopped within the detection area of an inductive-loop detector decrease the inductance of the loop. The electronics unit senses this event as a decrease in frequency and sends a pulse to the controller signifying the passage or presence of a vehicle.

There are many documents on the internet for those that are non believers- just google inductive-loop detectors.

Other methods of traffic detection include the following but for traffic light or gate acctivation the inductive loop is the most common.

Magnetometer (two-axis fluxgate magnetometer),
Magnetic (induction or search coil magnetometer
Microwave radar
Active infrared (laser radar)
Passive infrared
Ultrasonic
Acoustic
Video image processor

Fred

Right, they detect mass. Some materials like steel and aluminum are easier to detect.

Magnetic is on the way out, if it is even used anymore in the USA at all, for obvious reasons. There are 2012 cars today which would never trip a magnetic switch.

The rest of your list is too expensive to field, and I bet you can't find more than a handfull of any of them.

By the way, the Space and Missile Command (SMC) was detecting the mass of Soviet MIRV warheads 20+ years ago using a similar method, just at extremely long range compared to looking for a car sitting just above. They could tell the difference between dummy warheads and real ones because the real ones had much greater mass. Then the Soviets (and us, as well) starting putting mass in the dummy warheads equal to the real warheads. So SMC had to figure out how to tell one mass from another. Since you can't use any form of spectroscopy because there is steel around the mass you are trying to detect, they had to come up with another way. Today, if we decided to do it, we could see a launch the moment it happens, and the second it MIRVs, we could tell what was real and what was dummy. Up close you can use x-ray spectroscopy but by the time you can do that, you are in final targetting mode, trying to get it right outside the atmosphere.

Something sort of off the subject, but anyone that knows about modern artillery would know about modern counter-battery. This uses a combination of radar, video process, laser, and pressure sensors to near-instantly plot the location of a gun or howitzer shooting the incoming shells. So the counter-battery fire-for-effect is in the air before the incoming round(s) strike, and the gun emplacement is destroyed and will not fire again. Part of this technology will soon show up in police laser speed detection, and allow them to clock speed around a corner. I doubt they will ever be able to discriminate between multiple targets, but if you are the only one that comes around the corner, you prize is a speeding citation. I can't wait to read about these getting taken to court.

Give it about 10 years, at most. Right now the electronics are trailer size.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 03:55:46 pm by JR »
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Offline rsorrell2

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2012, 05:53:31 pm »
I have two of these things mounted at the forward front on the bottom of the fairly, just behind the front wheel and in my opinion they work

http://www.greenlightstuff.com/trigger.html

I have come up upon one every now and again that will not trip but then I wait and when able make the turn.

Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2012, 06:02:01 pm »
I have two of these things mounted at the forward front on the bottom of the fairly, just behind the front wheel and in my opinion they work

http://www.greenlightstuff.com/trigger.html

I have come up upon one every now and again that will not trip but then I wait and when able make the turn.


You could have gotten the same result by mounting a block of steel or even aircraft aluminum. There just aren't many magnetic systems embedded in roads anymore because they won't trigger new cars.
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Offline Necron99

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2012, 10:28:08 am »
I can only talk about the ones in Maryland. There is no control box.

I can't argue with on on the fact, but that sounds like the dumbest design possible given the particular technology.j  Since there HAS to be a control box for the light itself (for light timing) it just doesn't make sense to not have a sensitivity setting, and to bury said adjustment under the asphalt.

Offline TRM-KS

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2012, 08:10:37 pm »
Kansas also has the "dead red" law as of July 1 last year.  If the light does not go green "in a reasonable amount of time" then the motorcyclist (or the bicyclist) can proceed in a cautious and careful manner.  Of course, that "reasonable amount of time" is open to interpretation by everyone involved--rider, the cage driver behind you, possible LEO's, etc.  I believe in the Wichita area, the local government decided not to adopt the state law, so running a red is still an infraction under city ordinance.  With any luck the Wichita officer that pulls you over will be a rider himself...

Especially this summer, sitting at a dead red on top of a 300-degree frying pan is no fun.

From what I've come up with, most municipalities of any size are gradually changing to cameras at intersections, so maybe these embedded loop detectors will become a thing of the past in the next few years. 

Offline TJ

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2012, 12:23:12 am »
Virginia is another state that has a law that you may proceed as if stopped at a stop sign if you don't get a green after so long a period. I printed a copy of the ordnance and keep it in my bag in case a LEO calls me on it.



May i get a copy of that? what part of VA you from? I'm in Richmond (Wyndam)

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-833


Offline Bruiser

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2012, 01:55:37 am »
After reading all the pros/cons re: magnets...all I can say is here in Oregon, on my old C10,  there were several lights that just refused to change when I crossed the diamond shaped cut in the pavement.  While shopping on ebay under "bike parts", I saw a "light triggering magnet" for under $3.  I figured what have I got to lose, so ordered one.  After receiving and placing the magnet on my bike, I went out to the offending red light.  It changed almost immediately!  So, what can I say?  It worked for me.
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Offline JW

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2012, 11:32:16 pm »
i contacted two municipalities with this problem.   i live in north Georgia and they turned the sensativity up and they trip.  in Georgia if light does not change you can legally run it if all clear.

Offline MikeK

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Re: Tripping traffic lights ?
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2012, 10:36:39 pm »
I have found that the magnets do help.  I had them attached to my oil drain plug as it is the lowest ferrous point on the bike.

But after lowering my bike and going over a speed bump I managed to scrape them off (which is not easy, those rare earth magnets hold really tight) and I do notice more lights that will not change for me. 

Having said that my son used them on his SV1000 and did not have as good results.

JR is right that mass matters, which is why cars trigger these better than bikes, and big bikes work better than lighter ones.  I could dust off some old Physics books and look for a mass term in Maxwell's equations, though I would rather be out riding!