Author Topic: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing  (Read 21725 times)

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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2014, 12:37:34 pm »
As to how much to open them and how quickly, I don't think the secondaries do anything as far as I can see because once they are gone, there is no loss of performance, quality of idle or anything else I can detect.

Yes, but...even though the plates are gone, the STP shaft still has an effect on idle. It's hard to say what it would do in the 100% open position during warm idle...but I suspect that it was cause a high (cold) idle.

I can check it out later....like 1-2 months later...lol. I'll let y'all know.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 12:55:48 pm by Rembrant »
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Offline Cold Streak

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2014, 01:44:12 pm »
Quote
I'm probably gonna be booed, but I gotta ask. This beast is so frigging fast, and decent on fuel, why would anyone want to make it faster, or am I missing something?   Does reflashing, or altering the flies make it that much better?  Just asking.

Personally, I want to have more torque at lower speeds and rpms.  The seat of the pants and dyno results indicate and substantial increase (15-20%) in torque and power in the lower rpm ranges.  I have my girlfriend on the back quite often with full luggage and it could use a bit more grunt at normal highway speeds.  I don't need more top end.  Also, when changing the exhaust system to one with less restriction, less weight, better sound, it's nice to be able to tune the ECU for best fueling. 

On the question of setting the STP to 100% all the time, it certainly seems that removing them does that exactly.  I haven't seen the STP shaft.  Isn't it round with the center section machined flat for mounting the plate, like most other throttle shafts?  I don't see how it would matter much if it was turned one way or the other without the throttle plate on it. 
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2014, 01:49:22 pm »
Isn't it round with the center section machined flat for mounting the plate, like most other throttle shafts?  I don't see how it would matter much if it was turned one way or the other without the throttle plate on it.

With regards to flow through the throttle bodies, no it wouldn't matter. The issue is that the STP shaft is also used to control the high idle during cold starts, whether the secondary plates are intact or not.

This is why you would not notice a difference in idle with the plates removed...the secondary throttle plate shaft is still doing it's original job with regards to high idle control.

Rem ;D
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Offline Tundra Tom

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2014, 08:16:17 pm »
I'm probably gonna be booed, but I gotta ask. This beast is so frigging fast, and decent on fuel, why would anyone want to make it faster, or am I missing something?   Does reflashing, or altering the flies make it that much better?  Just asking.    :-[

Bruce, no problem. Many have asked the same question and EVERYONE who has pulled the flies on the first gen. (08-09) has stated this is how they should have come from the factory. The difference down low is substantial but by no means makes it un-manageable. I assume the re-flash on the second gen. has a similar effect. Let's face it, anyone riding a C-14 is experienced enough to not have nanny aides programmed into the ECU.
Oh and +1 on the skiing Cold Streak  :great:
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Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2014, 11:01:08 pm »
...........
I guess it really depends on whether or not the ECU overrides the STP map during cold starts.
............
Exactly...
We all agree that the STP map is "over-ridden" by the ecu when TC kicks in, so maybe it does on cold start-ups too?

You mentioned the STP's going to full open for cold-starts and then gradually backing off as the engine warms, but I thought you said earlier that the STP's shaft/cam is only effective on the throttle plates when they are turned roughly +/-45 degrees? :017:

Stay with me here Rembrandt, these are just my thoughts and ramblings about all of this... I've researched re-flashes and PCV's for too long. :(
I haven't dug deep enough into my C14 yet to scope out the throttle bodies, but I really appreciate all of your feedback with this WRT set-up....

During cold-starts, I don't think there is a richer/different fuel map 'per se'. I think the only thing that is "over-ridden" is the STP map- We won't know until you or someone else says differently...

Because of the mechanical linkage between the STP's and the throttle-plates themselves, I think the STP's map is "over-ridden" and they open to your roughly quoted 45degs during cold starts... This opens the throttle plates a certain percentage. All of this "fools" the ecu into giving the injectors more fuel(as if you were holding the throttle partially open). Look at the stock fuel map in neutral at 10-20% throttle around 1800rpms. I bet it is delivering more fuel than the cell at 0% throttle & 1100rpms...?
As engine temps. rise(and after blipping the throttle a time or two :motonoises:) the ecu recognizes proper operating temps. have been achieved. When it recognizes this, on a stock bike it shuts the STP's back to "zero". This in turn closes the throttle plates and reduces the idle back to 1150ish rpms.
This is the point where your all 100% secondary map(or whatever custom map) would be in effect. As I said earlier, you must fuel accordingly... but there are plenty of people running around with no secondary flies at all and their bikes idle just fine once the engine is warm. Again, if the fueling is mapped accordingly for 100% open/no 'flies...
Hope I'm making sense here?

..........
Anyway, I think this is going to be a very interesting journey and should have some great rewards. Looking forward to hearing about how it all works once the weather will cooperate a bit more.

Brian
Agreed!
Get crackin' Rembrandt!!! :beerchug:
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 11:12:13 pm by LakeTrax »

Offline nando

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2014, 11:33:42 pm »
My mother is very proud of me for reading this thread. "Hanging out with intelligent people son" said she to me.
The reality is, I don't understand a word of it.  :(
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2014, 11:34:11 pm »
We all agree that the STP map is "over-ridden" by the ecu when TC kicks in, so maybe it does on cold start-ups too?

You mentioned the STP's going to full open for cold-starts and then gradually backing off as the engine warms, but I thought you said earlier that the STP's shaft/cam is only effective on the throttle plates when they are turned roughly +/-45 degrees? :017:

Stay with me here Rembrandt, these are just my thoughts and ramblings about all of this... I've researched re-flashes and PCV's for too long. :(

Sorry Mr. Trax...lol. My written word does not always convey my actual meaning very well...lol. What I meant was, and what is actually happening is: The STP high idle cam does not come into contact with the throttle linkage until approx. 45 degrees (STP 50% open). From that point on, the cam profile changes very little, so for 50%-100% travel of the STP shaft, the throttle plate moves very little. When the STP shaft is at 100%, the throttle is cracked just a little...the edge of the throttle plate travels less than 2mm. This is the high idle position.

During cold-starts, I don't think there is a richer/different fuel map 'per se'. I think the only thing that is "over-ridden" is the STP map- We won't know until you or someone else says differently...

Actually, there is a different map. At idle, the engine runs on an IAP map (Idle Air Pressure). There is a MAP sensor on the throttle bodies, and an air temp sensor in the air box (under the fuel tank). So, the ECU is calculating air density and is adjusting the fuel accordingly. So, when the STP shaft cracks the throttle open, the pressure differential changes, and the ECU adjusts the fuel to bring the engine up to high/cold idle. The IAP map looks like the fuel map, except instead of measuring the throttle position, it measures the differential pressure.

Because of the mechanical linkage between the STP's and the throttle-plates themselves, I think the STP's map is "over-ridden" and they open to your roughly quoted 45degs during cold starts... This opens the throttle plates a certain percentage.

Yes, I agree....except the STP's open all the way. There would be a cold-start routine in the ECU that overrides the stock STP map. Even if the flies are removed, the secondary butterfly shaft is still closed anyway. At idle, the STP shaft is at 0%...the ECU has to override it and tell it to go to 100% for high idle.

As engine temps. rise(and after blipping the throttle a time or two :motonoises:) the ecu recognizes proper operating temps. have been achieved. When it recognizes this, on a stock bike it shuts the STP's back to "zero". This in turn closes the throttle plates and reduces the idle back to 1150ish rpms.

Yes, exactly.

This is the point where your all 100% secondary map(or whatever custom map) would be in effect. As I said earlier, you must fuel accordingly... but there are plenty of people running around with no secondary flies at all and their bikes idle just fine once the engine iswarm. Again, if the fueling is mapped accordingly for 100% open/no 'flies...
Hope I'm making sense here?

Oh yes, you're making all kinds of sense...lol. However, this is where I think there will be a problem. Once the cold-start routine is complete, and normal operating temp is reached, the ECU will revert back to the stock STP map, which is supposed to be at 0%, in which case the throttle plates will close, and the engine will return to the 1100-1150 RPM idle. This is just my assumption, but if the STP map is set to 100% in every cell, then the engine will be stuck on the high idle all the time....because the STP shaft will always be forcing the throttle plates open (slightly). The IAP map will take over at idle and send it right back up to 1500-1600 RPM.

I'd have to test it to be sure, but I assume that is what will happen.

Now, AM I making any sense?...lol.

Ya know, we could always be discussing what is the best oil to use, or what does "Low Transponder Battery" mean?...lol.

Rem
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 11:52:58 pm by Rembrant »
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2014, 11:40:51 pm »
My mother is very proud of me for reading this thread. "Hanging out with intelligent people son" said she to me.
The reality is, I don't understand a word of it.  :(

Hang in there Nando...it'll all make sense in the end;). ;D
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Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2014, 01:33:00 am »
................
Sorry Mr. Trax...lol. My written word does not always convey my actual meaning very well...lol.
....................
Rem
No worries! Neither does mine...
Thanks for more good info btw-
I'm just happy to be jivin' with somebody about all of this stuff! :) :beerchug:
I've been waiting for some real feedback, instead of the old... "I got re-flashed" or "I've got a PCV/Auto-tune" routine-

Considering all of the facts.... you've got a C14, a KDS, and WRT...? Dang mayon...
I will simply continue to pray that you do all of the hard work and have this stuff already mapped out for me by summer. O:-)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 01:41:23 am by LakeTrax »

Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2014, 01:52:08 am »
Considering all of the facts.... you've got a C14, a KDS, and WRT...? Dang mayon...

Yes....piles of wires and junk all over the kitchen counter half the time...the wife is not impressed...lol.

It's been a long winter. Once my exhaust and PC5 shows up, I can get into some tuning. I already have an Autotune that I bought from another member, so once spring arrives, I should be good to go.

Depending on how all that works, I may make a trip to the dyno, we'll see.

If I get ambitious this weekend, I'll throw the stock exhaust back on the C14 and try some things out.

I'm also anxious to hear how the other guys make out with the WRT software. Looks like there's at least two other guys that purchased kits....maybe more?

Rem :great:

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Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2014, 01:59:36 am »
Yes....piles of wires and junk all over the kitchen counter half the time...the wife is not impressed...lol.
Honey, are we having spaghetti or CAN bus for dinner?  :-\

Keep up the good work buddy, no doubt I'll be tuning in! :great:

Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2014, 09:01:56 pm »
I have purchased and received the Woolrich software for modifying the  ECU on my 2010 C14.

Hey LSGiant,

Did you happen to connect to and read your ECU yet?

Did Justin have to create a definition for your BIN-File?

I was looking at the 2011-up Non-CA BIN-file in the software, and it's all messed up.
Just wondering if you noticed it or not?
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Offline LSGiant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2014, 12:13:06 am »
I have not done anything except follow along on the Woolrich site and load the bin file.  Starting to wonder if these guys were ready for prime time.
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2014, 08:45:49 pm »
And there is the other problem; I do not remember where the secondaries are when they are being used to activate the high idle but if it is well into the open range, setting them to 100% open could cause a sudden and dangerous high idle. :-(  What I would suggest Cory would be to take a look at the linkage on the left side of the TB's and see where the high idle cam is on the secondaries- as long as it is operational well below 100%, it should be perfectly safe to try fully opening the 'flies all the time. But again, I would seriously check on that first....

Brian

I did just check on this, and the secondary flies DO actuate the throttle if they're opened to soon.

I'll check on it a little more, but if the STP map is set to 100% open too soon, it will actuate the throttle, even above idle. It could be very dangerous, just FYI.

I didn't have them opened in every cell to 100%, but I did have them opening pretty early.

Having the STP's 100% open in every cell is going to create undesirable results. Be careful fellas.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 10:59:31 pm by Rembrant »
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Offline gPink

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2014, 08:57:31 pm »
Rem, I'm trying to figure the difference between setting the fly maps to 100% and removing them. Is this because the mechanism (stepper motor/shaft) affects the primaries and high idle, and not the secondary throttle plate position?

Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2014, 09:30:34 pm »
Rem, I'm trying to figure the difference between setting the fly maps to 100% and removing them. Is this because the mechanism (stepper motor/shaft) affects the primaries and high idle, and not the secondary throttle plate position?

Yes, pretty much. The secondary throttle mechanism (stepper motor/shaft) also controls the high idle. It does this whether the secondary butterfly plates are removed or not.

Removing the secondary butterfly plates simply removes them as a restriction and allows more air flow. It does not affect the mechanism.

Setting the secondary butterflies to 100% open via the ECU affects the mechanism, which in turn affects the throttle at small throttle openings.

It's ok to set the secondary fly mechanism to be open to 100%, obviously Guhl and others have been doing it for a while, but they can only be set to 100% once the primary throttle is past a certain point...maybe 20% open...I'm not exactly sure.

I did a test with my spare ECU, and had the secondary flies opening to 100% pretty early. I didn't have them open too early in the RPM range, but I did have them open to soon in the throttle position range. With no load on the engine, it takes very little throttle opening to raise the RPM. The way I had them set, the secondary butterfly shaft cam actuated the throttle and sent the RPM's into orbit. I hit the kill switch @ 5000 RPM.

I had no intention of opening them 100% all of the time anyway, I was just testing them to see what would happen if I did. Doesn't look like a good idea to me.

Just a warning to the guys that plan on modifying their butterfly maps.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 10:25:41 pm by Rembrant »
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Offline gPink

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2014, 10:16:06 pm »
"I did a test with my spare ECU, and had the secondary flies opening to 100% pretty early. I didn't have them open too early in the RPM range, but I did have them open to soon in the throttle position range. With no load on the engine, it takes very little throttle opening to raise the RPM. The way I had them set, the secondary butterflies hit the throttle and sent the RPM's into orbit. I hit the kill switch @ 5000 RPM."

Do you mean they physically hit the throttle?

Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2014, 10:24:47 pm »
"I did a test with my spare ECU, and had the secondary flies opening to 100% pretty early. I didn't have them open too early in the RPM range, but I did have them open to soon in the throttle position range. With no load on the engine, it takes very little throttle opening to raise the RPM. The way I had them set, the secondary butterflies hit the throttle and sent the RPM's into orbit. I hit the kill switch @ 5000 RPM."

Do you mean they physically hit the throttle?

No...sorry, there I go again...I'm not very good at writing down what I'm thinking...lol.

I meant that the high idle cam on the end of the secondary butterfly shaft actuated the throttle linkage.

Hang on....lol, I'll go back and correct that;).
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Offline gPink

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2014, 10:26:18 pm »
Got it. :)

Offline BDF

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2014, 11:14:36 pm »
I know Cory answered this correctly but I thought I could expand a bit on what is going on regarding the secondaries and the high idle. It is not intuitive, at least in my opinion, and it is a little on the 'tricky' side (and quite clever IMO).

On the end of the secondaries throttle rod (the " 'flies"), there is a cam that is solidly mounted to the throttle shaft. The secondary 'flies travel ~ 90 degrees from as fully closed as they can get (plates across the throttle body bores) to fully open. But as the throttle rod rotates, it also rotates the cam that rides on a follower on the main throttles; this is how they cause the engine to run fast when it is cold (the 'high idle'). While the two different mechanisms are on the same throttle rod, they are not really inter- related in any other way; when the engine is idling, we do not care where the secondary 'flies are in their travel. Same thing when the secondaries are being opened because the engine is at a high main throttle setting and reaching high RPM- who cares where the idle is set at that point? So Kawasaki cleverly combined the two functions in one mechanism and it works like a charm.... if and until someone comes along and alters the way the system works in the first place. So by setting the 'flies to be 100% open all the time, the risk is that that will engage the high idle cam (which it does according to Cory, and I am confident he has been looking at it recently  ;D  ).

If the secondary throttle plates are simply removed, they are effectively open all the time but the secondary throttle rod continues to rotate, the ECU continues to control the secondaries (that are not there any longer) so the high idle function still works perfectly correctly.

As Cory has already said, the easy way around this is to simply fully open the secondaries only at higher throttle settings and leave the stock settings below, say, 10% throttle (or some such similar number).

Brian

Rem, I'm trying to figure the difference between setting the fly maps to 100% and removing them. Is this because the mechanism (stepper motor/shaft) affects the primaries and high idle, and not the secondary throttle plate position?
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2014, 11:33:08 pm »
I know Cory answered this correctly but I thought I could expand a bit on what is going on regarding the secondaries and the high idle. It is not intuitive, at least in my opinion, and it is a little on the 'tricky' side (and quite clever IMO).

Hey, I'll take all the help I can get...lol.

The problem is, I didn't realize how much (and how fast) the RPM's would change with such little movement in the primary throttle. With no load on the engine, she'll spin up pretty quickly. I have a set of ZX14 throttle bodies on the bench, so I can see exactly how much, and how far everything moves when the STP shaft is actuating the throttle linkage.

I can also view throttle and secondary butterfly positions in real-time when the KDS is connected, so I'll play with it a little more later. I will change the STP mapping again, now that I know where not to open the flies to 100%. ;D

It's still interesting stuff and I'm having some fun with it.

On a side note, I did find something else out today. I installed my spare ECU and registered it with the KiPass ECU, and it worked like a charm. When I re-installed my original stock ECU, I did not have to re-register it, so now I have two ECU's registered. I assumed that registering one would unregister the other, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The KiPass ECU must have a certain amount of ECU memory 'slots' like it does for the FOBs. I'll have to look into that some more.

Cheers,
Cory ;D
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Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2014, 04:39:54 am »
More interesting stuff Cory! :beerchug:

I read your other post today about the engine temps./bar gauge. Just for the heck of it(with stock maps/settings), it would be interesting to do a cold start with the KDS tool hooked up and see what actual engine temps. are achieved before the ecu closes the secondaries(in turn closing the throttle plates) and lowers to the idle to the regular 1150-ish rpms. Also cool to know that the KiPass system will acknowledge multiple ecu's. Good to know for future salvage jobs! :great:

A couple of things that this new info has got me thinkin'... It seems like you could figure out how to build the lower end of your modified STP map using the KDS tool. During a cold start, the KDS will show the opened percentage of the STP's. In turn, it shows how far that particular STP percentage opens the throttle plates. If you take those figures into account and "sorta run 'em backwards", you should be able to find out how low of a throttle position is a safe point to start opening the 'flies right?

I guess we know that the battle here will be finding the "sweet-spot". Opening the STP's too far/too soon at too low of a throttle position/rpms will cause the rev's to rise in an non-linear(and possibly dangerous) fashion. On the other hand, opening the STP's too late/too suddenly leaves un-tapped low-end power on the table and/or could give the C14's powerband a "v-tec" or "light-switch" type of feel. Sorta like nothing to everything-
This "sweet-spot" is why I'm so interested in the WRT set-up. It seems like it would allow you to get it just right according to your desires. Not every rider wants/needs the same thing in terms of performance(and most probably don't wanna take the time to fool with all of the tuning), but personally I've always wanted the most aggressive butterfly map possible. Most aggressive yet still keeping the power smooth-
I've been leery of paying for a reflash simply because I will never be certain that what I got is truly the best in regards to mimicking having the 'flies removed altogether. And because I will just be getting a generic fuel map that is "pretty close"- It would be really cool once you have your custom STP map made to get a hold of a "reflashed" ecu and compare the STP maps. I wonder if they will be close to the same, or would the mail-order reflashes still leave something to be desired.? Time will tell I suppose... Never thought to ask before, but does Guhl give out his map info?

Heck, after all of this... I'm beginning to think that Brian may be right.  :o
If I want the most aggressive set-up, maybe I really should just pull the secondaries and slap on a PCV & autotune. I'll just have to decide for myself if I can live with a "harsh/slow/un-smooth/whatever" TC system... I already do with the linked-brakes anyways.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 04:56:26 am by LakeTrax »

Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #72 on: February 17, 2014, 09:39:07 am »
I read your other post today about the engine temps./bar gauge. Just for the heck of it(with stock maps/settings), it would be interesting to do a cold start with the KDS tool hooked up and see what actual engine temps. are achieved before the ecu closes the secondaries(in turn closing the throttle plates) and lowers to the idle to the regular 1150-ish rpms.

I'll check that next time around Trax and post the temps in the other thread. Good idea.

A couple of things that this new info has got me thinkin'... It seems like you could figure out how to build the lower end of your modified STP map using the KDS tool. During a cold start, the KDS will show the opened percentage of the STP's. In turn, it shows how far that particular STP percentage opens the throttle plates. If you take those figures into account and "sorta run 'em backwards", you should be able to find out how low of a throttle position is a safe point to start opening the 'flies right?

Yup. Don't even have to really run 'em backwards either. With the ignition on, but the engine off, in the KDS you still have access to the various data, like throttle and STP positions. If I move the secondary butterfly shaft manually, I can read it's position on the sensor, and note the voltage where the throttle starts to move. I'll get at that later...I have more C14 'tupperware' to remove for that;).

I've been leery of paying for a reflash simply because I will never be certain that what I got is truly the best in regards to mimicking having the 'flies removed altogether. And because I will just be getting a generic fuel map that is "pretty close"- It would be really cool once you have your custom STP map made to get a hold of a "reflashed" ecu and compare the STP maps. I wonder if they will be close to the same, or would the mail-order reflashes still leave something to be desired.? Time will tell I suppose... Never thought to ask before, but does Guhl give out his map info?

The send-in 'reflashed' ECU's have the STP's snapping to 100% open at approximately 3500 RPM, and in top gear even earlier, like at 3000 RPM. It would be easier (safer?) to open the STP's to 100% at lower RPM's in the higher gears because the throttle position would be further open due to the load on the engine.
My concern with the send-in ECU re-flashing has less to do with the STP's and more to do with overall performance. Some guys have been very happy with their re-flashed ECU's, but some have not. I'd hate to spend $400 having my ECU re-flashed, and then not really feel much of an improvement in performance. I think it depends a lot on how you ride as to whether or not you feel a boost. As they say, YMMV. ;D

I highly doubt Guhl or anybody else will give out their map info. I have seen his maps posted on other forums (for other Kawasaki's), but they were just fuel maps, not STP maps. If somebody has the ECU software and wants to look at previously flashed ECU's, it's no problem to do so.   

Heck, after all of this... I'm beginning to think that Brian may be right.
If I want the most aggressive set-up, maybe I really should just pull the secondaries and slap on a PCV & autotune. I'll just have to decide for myself if I can live with a "harsh/slow/un-smooth/whatever" TC system... I already do with the linked-brakes anyways.

Brian? Right?...lol. Geez, don't tell him that!!...lol.

My PCV should be here in a few weeks, and the Autotune is already here;).
“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.” ~ Winston Churchill.

Offline nando

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #73 on: February 17, 2014, 05:12:30 pm »
Absolutely, I agree
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Offline BDF

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #74 on: February 17, 2014, 05:33:03 pm »
Brian may be right? Hey, we're just discussing stuff here, no need to go nuts and start making insane accusations....  ;D

As Cory already mentioned I think, choosing the map area where the high speed idle cam is engaged is really quite direct and easy- just look at the cam / linkage and it will be obvious where the cam actually engages the throttle. Note the degree or percentage of opening at that point and all done- stay away from that area unless the throttle is, say, 5% or 10% open at a minimum and all will be well.

As far as the 'best place for the 'flies', I find on my desk works quite well :-)  Seriously, I do not find my C-14 to act abruptdly, suddenly or in any other way other than exactly as I would expect and prefer. It is nothing to fear and not something that needs any taming IMO, just a large, potentially powerful bike that runs and acts perfectly and has great manners. Sure if one is going to slap the throttle half- open on every launch, then one is going to get a pretty snappy ride (as well as the passenger (!) ), and the bike will lift the front wheel now and then. But I think that is perfectly normal on a modern, correctly running, 1,400 cc bike. In fact, I thought the bike was a bit 'broken' with the 'flies in as it was neutered below about 5K, 6K RPM in my opinion. Opening the 'flies all the time or simply removing them merely corrects the vehicle into what it should always have been in my opinion. I can understand whey Kawasaki felt the need to protect the unaware rider, or perhaps the tourer rider moving to this modern sport tourer, from what is really quite a high performance bike given the saddlebags and all but I do not have that need or expectation.

But I do understand that some may prefer a slightly de- tuned bike. We are all different, have different wants and needs, and of course there may be some who do want a gentler, tamer bike and would prefer some level of ECU throttle management. ?? Hey, for all we talk about modifying the bike, I bet the vast majority of C-14's in use right now are stock regarding the engine or at most have a slip- on muffler on them.

As far as what Cory is doing, well that is just too cool. Who would not want to tinker in there for all he / she was worth?

Brian

More interesting stuff Cory! :beerchug:

I read your other post today about the engine temps./bar gauge. Just for the heck of it(with stock maps/settings), it would be interesting to do a cold start with the KDS tool hooked up and see what actual engine temps. are achieved before the ecu closes the secondaries(in turn closing the throttle plates) and lowers to the idle to the regular 1150-ish rpms. Also cool to know that the KiPass system will acknowledge multiple ecu's. Good to know for future salvage jobs! :great:

A couple of things that this new info has got me thinkin'... It seems like you could figure out how to build the lower end of your modified STP map using the KDS tool. During a cold start, the KDS will show the opened percentage of the STP's. In turn, it shows how far that particular STP percentage opens the throttle plates. If you take those figures into account and "sorta run 'em backwards", you should be able to find out how low of a throttle position is a safe point to start opening the 'flies right?

I guess we know that the battle here will be finding the "sweet-spot". Opening the STP's too far/too soon at too low of a throttle position/rpms will cause the rev's to rise in an non-linear(and possibly dangerous) fashion. On the other hand, opening the STP's too late/too suddenly leaves un-tapped low-end power on the table and/or could give the C14's powerband a "v-tec" or "light-switch" type of feel. Sorta like nothing to everything-
This "sweet-spot" is why I'm so interested in the WRT set-up. It seems like it would allow you to get it just right according to your desires. Not every rider wants/needs the same thing in terms of performance(and most probably don't wanna take the time to fool with all of the tuning), but personally I've always wanted the most aggressive butterfly map possible. Most aggressive yet still keeping the power smooth-
I've been leery of paying for a reflash simply because I will never be certain that what I got is truly the best in regards to mimicking having the 'flies removed altogether. And because I will just be getting a generic fuel map that is "pretty close"- It would be really cool once you have your custom STP map made to get a hold of a "reflashed" ecu and compare the STP maps. I wonder if they will be close to the same, or would the mail-order reflashes still leave something to be desired.? Time will tell I suppose... Never thought to ask before, but does Guhl give out his map info?

Heck, after all of this... I'm beginning to think that Brian may be right.  :o
If I want the most aggressive set-up, maybe I really should just pull the secondaries and slap on a PCV & autotune. I'll just have to decide for myself if I can live with a "harsh/slow/un-smooth/whatever" TC system... I already do with the linked-brakes anyways.  ;)
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