Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Accessories C14 => Topic started by: LSGiant on February 01, 2014, 01:39:12 pm

Title: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on February 01, 2014, 01:39:12 pm
I have purchased and received the Woolrich software for modifying the  ECU on my 2010 C14. The bike is bone stock and my only goal is to modify the secondary throttle plate opening rates. I have read the posts regarding this change and I believe I have a good plan on how i will make my modifications.

i know of a few others who have purchased this software for their C14. I hope to use this thread to post my experiences and results and I am hoping others will chime in with their goals and results. Sadly it is to cold out right now to do anything but type in the forum and review videos and posts regarding tuning.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Cold Streak on February 01, 2014, 01:54:16 pm
I will be doing the same as you on a similar time schedule. I live in the Twin Cities of MN. Perhaps a tech session this spring would be appropriate to make the changes. I just got my box of hardware! Meanwhile back to skiing.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 02, 2014, 12:15:18 am
I know of a few others who have purchased this software for their C14.

I have received my Woolich kit a couple weeks ago and have been playing with it a little. I have 'read' the stock ECU program, made some changes, and uploaded it to the ECU. As far as ECU reading and writing, everything seems to work ok. You'll get the hang of it pretty quickly.

I've been working with a spare ECU that I can try in the bike later on.

I've started converting a PC5 map over to the ECU, but I've only just started...I'll carry on with it as time (and interest) allow. I won't be riding for 2 months yet anyway:(

Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Con05_NH on February 02, 2014, 01:28:31 am
What does it cost?
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on February 02, 2014, 01:51:54 am
What does it cost?


http://www.woolichracing.com/products/kawasaki/1400-gtr-zg-1400-concours/2010/2010-kawasaki-1400-gtr-zg-1400-concours-ecu-flashing.aspx#productTable (http://www.woolichracing.com/products/kawasaki/1400-gtr-zg-1400-concours/2010/2010-kawasaki-1400-gtr-zg-1400-concours-ecu-flashing.aspx#productTable)
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LakeTrax on February 02, 2014, 03:24:04 am
I know of a few others who have purchased this software for their C14.

I have received my Woolich kit a couple weeks ago and have been playing with it a little. I have 'read' the stock ECU program, made some changes, and uploaded it to the ECU. As far as ECU reading and writing, everything seems to work ok. You'll get the hang of it pretty quickly.

I've been working with a spare ECU that I can try in the bike later on.

I've started converting a PC5 map over to the ECU, but I've only just started...I'll carry on with it as time (and interest) allow. I won't be riding for 2 months yet anyway:(
Have you done any fooling around with the butterfly maps yet, or just been messing with the fueling?
The main reason I want to buy this set-up(just like LSGiant) would be to adjust the opening times/rates of the secondary 'flies. Looking forward to feedback on that-
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 02, 2014, 09:54:08 am
Have you done any fooling around with the butterfly maps yet, or just been messing with the fueling?
The main reason I want to buy this set-up(just like LSGiant) would be to adjust the opening times/rates of the secondary 'flies. Looking forward to feedback on that-

Hiya Lake,

Yes, I've played around with the secondary butterflies a bit....but keep in mind, I'm only bench testing, with a spare Gen 2 C14 ECU, I haven't done any road-testing yet. I won't be riding until around the beginning of April.
I can swap this ECU in later, or flash the one in the bike.

The stock mapping for the secondary butterflies is even more restrictive than I expected...it's no wonder there is some 'hidden' power there. I don't know where I got this, but I thought I had read somewhere before that the secondary flies were wide open by something like 5500 RPM anyway. In looking at the high gear butterfly map, where I would often be riding, at 4000 RPM and 50% throttle, the flies are only open 40%. At 6500 RPM they're only open about 65%. They never really hit 100% until WOT close to the redline.

When I get to it, I will modify my butterfly map(s) for all gears so that they start to open just above idle, and are 100% open by, lets say...3500-3600 RPM. That's my plan at least....I will modify the fuel maps at the same time as well. Changing them is easy...just a couple clicks of the mouse.

I can't do much in the way of real-world tuning until A. The stupid winter is over...lol, and B. my PC5 and Area-P exhaust show up! There are other Kawi guys that are successfully tuning their ECU's using PC5's w/ Autotune. It takes a little bit to get it all sorted, but in the end you have a nicely tuned ECU.

Does any of that make any sense?...lol. Once one of us, or a few of us, get tuned and dialed in, then we can share maps...between users/bikes with the same set-ups.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: gPink on February 02, 2014, 12:54:07 pm
Rem, is there anything you can see in the ecu that regulates the on/off temp for the cooling fans?
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 02, 2014, 01:04:56 pm
Rem, is there anything you can see in the ecu that regulates the on/off temp for the cooling fans?

Nope, it's not in the WRT software unfortunately. The WRT software currently only reads the 'essential' data for tuning. Coolant temp and setting data is not available...not yet at least.

This was something that was really cool with the couple Triumphs I had. With the TuneECU software, you had access to all kinds of 'extras' in the ECU...speedo calibration, throttle body vacuum, and you could select the on-temp for the rad fan, which I thought was a really neat feature.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 02, 2014, 01:33:35 pm
Rembrant - can you tune the secondary flies to different opening points depending on gear and throttle position?  Things that would interest me would to have them open sooner with hard throttle application, but have them more closed  when light throttle cruising in high gear to help economy. In other words less based on rpm and more on throttle input. Steve
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on February 02, 2014, 01:56:24 pm
Steve I have yet to try it but from what I can see from the video yes there are maps for each gear.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 02, 2014, 02:32:07 pm
Rembrant - can you tune the secondary flies to different opening points depending on gear and throttle position?  Things that would interest me would to have them open sooner with hard throttle application, but have them more closed  when light throttle cruising in high gear to help economy. In other words less based on rpm and more on throttle input. Steve

Yes. The secondary butterfly maps are graphed by RPM and Throttle position...you can select the opening time, and speed. You could adjust it however you like. There are different maps for neutral, gears 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6, although the 1-2 and 3-4 maps appear to be exactly the same.

Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LakeTrax on February 02, 2014, 02:44:38 pm
Rembrant - can you tune the secondary flies to different opening points depending on gear and throttle position?  Things that would interest me would to have them open sooner with hard throttle application, but have them more closed  when light throttle cruising in high gear to help economy. In other words less based on rpm and more on throttle input. Steve

Yes. The secondary butterfly maps are graphed by RPM and Throttle position...you can select the opening time, and speed. You could adjust it however you like. There are different maps for neutral, gears 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6, although the 1-2 and 3-4 maps appear to be exactly the same.
Excellent! >:D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 02, 2014, 02:47:04 pm
 I'm interested in how that works. I don't have traction control on my 09, I think some secondary control could be good , but it can also neuter the bike.
  I'd actually like to experiment with cruise condition, whereby you set a given speed (let's use 75 mph) and then slowly close the secondary butterflies to improve velocity. I don't think this could be done through just mapping, You'ld need to actually ride the bike, or have it on the dyno as adjustments are made. I have a system to do this on my cv carbs on my c-10, and I have seen a change of 6 mpg by dropping the slides during cruise. Steve
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: gPink on February 02, 2014, 02:51:15 pm
Your thought is that the secondaries increase velocity rather than choke airflow?
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 02, 2014, 03:09:06 pm
Your thought is that the secondaries increase velocity rather than choke airflow?

It will do either, depending on it's position. I've never experimented with this on EFI. I could see it being more beneficial on oversized throttle bodies, don't know if there's anything to be gained on the c-14 stock TB's. Steve
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 02, 2014, 03:11:51 pm
I'm also curious how remapping can be done efficiently / effectively without a way to measure load output (a dyno) and a/f ratio (wb02).  Steve
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: gPink on February 02, 2014, 03:22:22 pm
I'm also curious how remapping can be done efficiently / effectively without a way to measure load output (a dyno) and a/f ratio (wb02).  Steve
...which brings us back to PCv with Autotune to build the maps and the software to flash them to the ecu. Getting expensive.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LakeTrax on February 02, 2014, 03:33:54 pm
I'm also curious how remapping can be done efficiently / effectively without a way to measure load output (a dyno) and a/f ratio (wb02).  Steve
Technically, it can't be Steve.
You can probably get pretty close to a good a/f ratio with enough time and trial and error. Just keep tweaking and test riding and going by "seat-of-the-pants" feel. That really isn't optimal though- Dyno time is the best, or the PCV & autotune set-up.
The beauty of this Woolrich set-up is that it sounds like once enough guys have used it(hopefully in conjunction with a dyno or PCV/autotune) and have compiled a good amount of maps in their "database", hopefully there will be some maps that match your bike's set-up and you can just download these existing maps and be pretty close. I suppose this all depends on how many guys with C14s actually use the WRT set-up and tune their bikes on dynos.
I'm all for letting someone else do all of the hard(and expensive) work!  :great: :beerchug:
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on February 02, 2014, 04:00:45 pm
my 09 came with a PCV, I have some wb02's, maybe I'll just get the autotune and make it easy on myself. I used the WB02's when building my jet kits, it's the only way to get it "right" . steve
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 02, 2014, 04:10:04 pm

You can probably get pretty close to a good a/f ratio with enough time and trial and error. Just keep tweaking and test riding and going by "seat-of-the-pants" feel. That really isn't optimal though- Dyno time is the best, or the PCV & autotune set-up.
The beauty of this Woolrich set-up is that it sounds like once enough guys have used it(hopefully in conjunction with a dyno or PCV/autotune) and have compiled a good amount of maps in their "database", hopefully there will be some maps that match your bike's set-up and you can just download these existing maps and be pretty close. I suppose this all depends on how many guys with C14s actually use the WRT set-up and tune their bikes on dynos.
I'm all for letting someone else do all of the hard(and expensive) work!  :great: :beerchug:

Yessir, I'm going to tune my ECU with the PC5 and Autotune...when I get to it. This isn't new...there are guys already doing this with good results. I think a lot of people won't go to those lengths (and don't need to either) and will be happy with an off-the-shelf-tune, but for those of us that like to tinker....well, we'll have some fun it all.
I may make a trip to the dyno, but I am still undecided yet.

I expect a C14 ECU map database will develop in time...once a few more people get into it. The same thing has been happening with Power Commander maps for years.

What I like about the ECU mapping is the simplicity of it. I can leave my secondary flies in place, which isn't really a deal breaker anyway, and when it comes time to sell my bike, I can upload the stock ECU map in a matter of minutes, and I'm done.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: gPink on February 02, 2014, 04:25:05 pm
my 09 came with a PCV, I have some wb02's, maybe I'll just get the autotune and make it easy on myself. I used the WB02's when building my jet kits, it's the only way to get it "right" . steve

Dynojet also has an LCD unit that would be a big asset I think. I believe Fred had one when working up the maps with Guhl.
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Products/LCDUnit/powercommander_lcd.aspx (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Products/LCDUnit/powercommander_lcd.aspx)
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on February 02, 2014, 04:58:31 pm
I plan to tweak the secondaries in the normal mode and leave the maps alone for the ECO mode. That way I can get the better fuel mileage and I can still dust those traitor FJR owners that I ride with :)  I normally ride in ECO mode for most of the time anyway.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: JS_racer on February 02, 2014, 11:17:01 pm
How does this compare to refreshing from guhl, I understand the tinkering aspect,  but is the driveability and reliable results better at this time for the guhl refresh?

Was super close to the flash and a cs one,  not sure what to do now.  I am a rider though,  60k miles in 3 years,  coverage till mid 2016. Can't be the only one weighing options.

Thanks much for the time.
Joel
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 02, 2014, 11:33:02 pm
How does this compare to refreshing from guhl, I understand the tinkering aspect,  but is the driveability and reliable results better at this time for the guhl refresh?

Was super close to the flash and a cs one,  not sure what to do now.  I am a rider though,  60k miles in 3 years,  coverage till mid 2016. Can't be the only one weighing options.

Thanks much for the time.
Joel

Joel, this WRT DIY kit is just the software for communicating with, and programming, the Concours-14 ECU. It does not come with any kind of pre-made performance 'tune' or map. You are responsible for that yourself, either by dyno tuning the bike, or tuning it with a wide-band O2 sensor, etc.

With the Guhl ECU reflash for the Concours-14, he will program a pre-made performance tune/map into your ECU that should closely match the intake and exhaust accessories you choose. It will be ready to go, and you can send it back to Guhl if you want to make any changes.

They're not really the same thing (to compare). Down the road, there should be some custom tuned ECU maps available that you could upload yourself, and modify and tune as you wish, but there are none available at this time. This kit is just new for the Concours-14.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: JS_racer on February 03, 2014, 12:27:01 am
Thanks,  makes sense.   :beerchug: 
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Cold Streak on February 03, 2014, 05:59:02 pm

Quote
Joel, this WRT DIY kit is just the software for communicating with, and programming, the Concours-14 ECU. It does not come with any kind of pre-made performance 'tune' or map. You are responsible for that yourself, either by dyno tuning the bike, or tuning it with a wide-band O2 sensor, etc.

That's not what I thought when I ordered the product.   ::)  The way he worded it I thought they already had maps available for different configurations.  Might have thought twice about it in that case.  Oh well, time to experiment.


Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on February 09, 2014, 07:11:09 pm
Finished modifying my maps for the STPs this afternoon. It took a little while to get used to the software and I found it was easier for me to copy them to excel and then copy them back.  I took a little time evaluating the maps as to where they started to get engage the STPs. I then moved those cells up in the map and copied the wide open settings to the bottom of the map.  It looks nice on the graph. I won't be able to test for at least a couple of months. As mentioned by others earlier without the O2 sensor and a Dyno it will just be a seat of the pants thing, but compared to just removing them I would think this would be better.

I plan to do the actual download at our NC tech session in March. Hopefully it will be warm enough to ride. :)
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: BDF on February 09, 2014, 07:22:58 pm
Can the entire secondary throttle position map, all cells at all speeds, be set to 'open'? You know, so they are open fully whenever the ign. key is turned on?  ;)

Brian

Finished modifying my maps for the STPs this afternoon. It took a little while to get used to the software and I found it was easier for me to copy them to excel and then copy them back.  I took a little time evaluating the maps as to where they started to get engage the STPs. I then moved those cells up in the map and copied the wide open settings to the bottom of the map.  It looks nice on the graph. I won't be able to test for at least a couple of months. As mentioned by others earlier without the O2 sensor and a Dyno it will just be a seat of the pants thing, but compared to just removing them I would think this would be better.

I plan to do the actual download at our NC tech session in March. Hopefully it will be warm enough to ride. :)
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 09, 2014, 07:32:05 pm
Can the entire secondary throttle position map, all cells at all speeds, be set to 'open'? You know, so they are open fully whenever the ign. key is turned on?  ;)

Yes. The graph starts at 600 RPM on one axis, and 1.2% TPS on the other. Each cell is 0-100%. You could copy and paste them all to 100%, and they'd all be wide open.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: nando on February 09, 2014, 07:35:42 pm
At a more fundamental level: Does opening the butterflies (or removing them) lowers your mpg average?
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 09, 2014, 07:50:08 pm
I plan to do the actual download at our NC tech session in March. Hopefully it will be warm enough to ride. :)

Hey LSGiant,

Just a suggestion, but make sure you try the read/write to the ECU prior to your tech session. You'll be able to read the ECU no problem, but you may not be able to write to it right away....depending on what year your bike is. If it is a 2010, you may be ok, but if it is 2011 or newer, you will likely have to send the stock BIN file to Woolich to have it defined before you can write to the ECU. It's no biggie, but there may be a 24 hour (or more) delay between when you first read the ECU to when you can actually write to it.

If you've already gone through all of this, then never mind...you're already set-up.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 09, 2014, 07:53:17 pm
Can the entire secondary throttle position map, all cells at all speeds, be set to 'open'? You know, so they are open fully whenever the ign. key is turned on?

Brian,

I have attached a screen shot of what a stock STP map looks like. It's easy to modify...if you can use Excel...well, you're on your way;).

Now...if I could figure out how to copy the whole picture after I save it to Paint....lol, you'd see the rest of it. ;D

Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on February 09, 2014, 09:31:26 pm
I plan to do the actual download at our NC tech session in March. Hopefully it will be warm enough to ride. :)

Hey LSGiant,

Just a suggestion, but make sure you try the read/write to the ECU prior to your tech session. You'll be able to read the ECU no problem, but you may not be able to write to it right away....depending on what year your bike is. If it is a 2010, you may be ok, but if it is 2011 or newer, you will likely have to send the stock BIN file to Woolich to have it defined before you can write to the ECU. It's no biggie, but there may be a 24 hour (or more) delay between when you first read the ECU to when you can actually write to it.

If you've already gone through all of this, then never mind...you're already set-up.

Thanks, I was hoping to give it a try before the session but now I will make it a priority. Hopefully it will get a little warmer it takes a lot of $$ and time to get the garage to tolerable when it is so fricking cold.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: BDF on February 09, 2014, 09:36:34 pm
Excellent (he says while tenting his fingers)- thanks for posting that.

It also confirms, or almost confirms because I cannot quite see those cells, that the 'flies are fully open at 7K RPM, which has long been suspected and believed but not proven up until now, at least to my knowledge.

I wonder if those percentage points are the actual opening or just the percentage of rotation? For example, if 50% means that the secondaries have rotated 1/2 way to full open, then the effective throttling of the engine would be far, far less than 1/2 (meaning the 'flies would be flowing a LOT more air than 1/2 of the air they are capable of flowing). I suspect that it is an indication of the rotation due to the very non- linear nature of the throttle opening map range on the top of the chart.

Thanks Cory, great info.!

Brian

Brian,

I have attached a screen shot of what a stock STP map looks like. It's easy to modify...if you can use Excel...well, you're on your way;).

Now...if I could figure out how to copy the whole picture after I save it to Paint....lol, you'd see the rest of it. ;D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 09, 2014, 09:43:32 pm
Excellent (he says while tenting his fingers)- thanks for posting that.

It also confirms, or almost confirms because I cannot quite see those cells, that the 'flies are fully open at 7K RPM, which has long been suspected and believed but not proven up until now, at least to my knowledge.

What is it that you cannot see?...Because the image is cut off at the bottom?
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: BDF on February 09, 2014, 09:56:15 pm
Yes. If I am reading the graph correctly, throttle opening is across the top (X axis) with engine speed on the left (and increasing downward but that is another discussion) (Y axis). The last RPM I can see is 6,500 RPM and at 100% throttle (manual), the secondaries are open 93.9%. So pretty shortly after 6.5K RPM they must be open all the way.

Brian


What is it that you cannot see?...Because the image is cut off at the bottom?
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 09, 2014, 10:09:36 pm
Yes. If I am reading the graph correctly, throttle opening is across the top (X axis) with engine speed on the left (and increasing downward but that is another discussion) (Y axis). The last RPM I can see is 6,500 RPM and at 100% throttle (manual), the secondaries are open 93.9%. So pretty shortly after 6.5K RPM they must be open all the way.

Brian

Ok, yes. The STP's are 100% open at 8000 RPM @ 100% TP (They are 99% open @ 7500 RPM). Keep in mind, this is the Neutral STP map...it is dialed back just a little. The gear maps are a bit more aggressive...and they do open a little bit earlier.

As to the STP percentages...I would assume the percentage is 0-100% for the 0-90 degrees of rotation. I suppose it could be the flow, but that never even occurred to me.

If you're familiar with PC5 maps, you'll notice that the stock ECU mapping has almost double the increments in throttle position, and the RPM increments are smaller as well. This is why it's a bit tricky to convert the PC5 mapping....but not impossible. You just have to interpolate the numbers and blend them in. I have an Excel file for this now...just need some good weather to try it;). I may go as far as to try the Log Box Pro later...we'll see.

Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LakeTrax on February 09, 2014, 10:34:51 pm
Can the entire secondary throttle position map, all cells at all speeds, be set to 'open'? You know, so they are open fully whenever the ign. key is turned on?  ;)

Yes. The graph starts at 600 RPM on one axis, and 1.2% TPS on the other. Each cell is 0-100%. You could copy and paste them all to 100%, and they'd all be wide open.
That's what I've wondered too Brian...

I really hope to get my hands on this WRT set-up sometime this year.
To me, it would be worth a try(maybe Rembrandt will do it first?)... to set the 'flies open 100% of the time, then map the fueling accordingly for whatever your bike's modifications require.
In essence, it would be the same thing as removing the 'flies all together, but should still allow for the TC system to operate as stock.
This would TRULY be the best of both worlds-
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 09, 2014, 10:45:01 pm
To me, it would be worth a try(maybe Rembrandt will do it first?)... to set the 'flies open 100% of the time, then map the fueling accordingly for whatever your bike's modifications require.

I have a few things I'm going to try...but not until April when the roads clear up...maybe sooner...we'll see what Mother Nature has to say. ;D

I should have a couple tuned ECU maps that others could try by late spring.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: BDF on February 10, 2014, 12:58:06 am
Yeah, well that is the really obvious thing, right?  Just tell the ECU to hold them open and be done with it....

There may be one problem in the way though. The secondaries system on the C-14 has another use entirely; they function as the fast- idle cam for cold weather starting. There is a cam lobe on the secondary throttle rod, and there is a cam follower that is attached to the main throttle; when the secondaries are in a very specific range of positions, they also hold the main throttle open. Just an absolutely free guess but I think it will still work because the 'high idle' function of the ECU would have no reason to be coupled to the secondaries 'flies table and in fact, override it, at least it seems like it should. I mean, who cares where the secondary butterflies are when the engine is started? And if they have to be opened to, say, 19% to affect a high idle, it would not make any difference as long as the bikes' speed was zero (idling).

And there is the other problem; I do not remember where the secondaries are when they are being used to activate the high idle but if it is well into the open range, setting them to 100% open could cause a sudden and dangerous high idle. :-(  What I would suggest Cory would be to take a look at the linkage on the left side of the TB's and see where the high idle cam is on the secondaries- as long as it is operational well below 100%, it should be perfectly safe to try fully opening the 'flies all the time. But again, I would seriously check on that first....

Brian

To me, it would be worth a try(maybe Rembrandt will do it first?)... to set the 'flies open 100% of the time, then map the fueling accordingly for whatever your bike's modifications require.

I have a few things I'm going to try...but not until April when the roads clear up...maybe sooner...we'll see what Mother Nature has to say. ;D

I should have a couple tuned ECU maps that others could try by late spring.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 10, 2014, 01:19:50 am
What I would suggest Cory would be to take a look at the linkage on the left side of the TB's and see where the high idle cam is on the secondaries- as long as it is operational well below 100%, it should be perfectly safe to try fully opening the 'flies all the time. But again, I would seriously check on that first....

Do you mean at what point the STP high idle cam hits the throttle linkage? Approximately 45 degrees...or 50%.

If I'm understanding your question right...
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on February 10, 2014, 01:35:04 am
This is going to be a trial and error process for a bit. I chose to ramp the plates open. I just have it happening much earlier than stock. I do not mind if it really doesn't start to pull until a little ways off of idle.
It looks like a I can buy a wide band O2 sensor and recorder for 170 bucks or so. This looks really fun but the riding season it so short here that if it works well enough I will wait for Rembrandt to do all the hard work. Hopefully we will meet somewhere so I can at least buy him a beverage.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Bruiser on February 10, 2014, 01:57:40 am
I'm probably gonna be booed, but I gotta ask. This beast is so frigging fast, and decent on fuel, why would anyone want to make it faster, or am I missing something?   Does reflashing, or altering the flies make it that much better?  Just asking.    :-[
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LakeTrax on February 10, 2014, 03:33:07 am
Yeah, well that is the really obvious thing, right?  Just tell the ECU to hold them open and be done with it....

There may be one problem in the way though. The secondaries system on the C-14 has another use entirely; they function as the fast- idle cam for cold weather starting. There is a cam lobe on the secondary throttle rod, and there is a cam follower that is attached to the main throttle; when the secondaries are in a very specific range of positions, they also hold the main throttle open. Just an absolutely free guess but I think it will still work because the 'high idle' function of the ECU would have no reason to be coupled to the secondaries 'flies table and in fact, override it, at least it seems like it should. I mean, who cares where the secondary butterflies are when the engine is started? And if they have to be opened to, say, 19% to affect a high idle, it would not make any difference as long as the bikes' speed was zero (idling).

And there is the other problem; I do not remember where the secondaries are when they are being used to activate the high idle but if it is well into the open range, setting them to 100% open could cause a sudden and dangerous high idle. :-(  What I would suggest Cory would be to take a look at the linkage on the left side of the TB's and see where the high idle cam is on the secondaries- as long as it is operational well below 100%, it should be perfectly safe to try fully opening the 'flies all the time. But again, I would seriously check on that first....

Brian
If I do in fact get the WRT set-up, I don't really think that I will set the 'flies to 100% open all of the time. I would however definitely have them opening much sooner/quicker than stock-
My above comment was more of a hypothetical...
I understand what your talking about Brian(and it sounds like we are in agreement). I still feel like it could be done without any issues if the fueling map is also correctly adjusted. I have a feeling that the ecu's high idle map(based on air/engine temp. info received by the ecu?) would indeed override whatever maps are "WRT adjusted" until proper operating temperatures are achieved. The ecu would then default back to whatever your custom maps are. Just like the TC system... once the ecu senses certain parameters, the fuel/butterfly/ignition maps are "overridden".
If for some reason the high-idle actually is affected by having the 'flies set to 100% all of the time, couldn't you work around that by leaving the butterfly map stock up to around say 1800-2000rpm and then set the rest of the map to 100%? Or even easier, just leave all of the "zero" cells alone and change all other cells to 100.
Just brain-storming here- :017:
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 10, 2014, 10:46:55 am
This looks really fun but the riding season it so short here that if it works well enough I will wait for Rembrandt to do all the hard work. Hopefully we will meet somewhere so I can at least buy him a beverage.

Back in 2005-2006, I spent a little bit of time in your area...passed right through your town many times. I was helping set up some new equipment at a plant in Mankato. It was during one of those trips that I got to experience driving a full size vehicle (SUV) on a lake...lol. We went out to see some guys in an ice fishing shack. The people in that area were unusually friendly...we had a great time.

We also passed through on I-90 back in 2011 returning on a bike trip to the west coast....and my wife was amazed...lol. Every ten minutes she'd say: "But...I...I've just never seen so much corn"...ha!

Ok, sorry to get so far off-topic there...lol.

My riding season would be a little longer than yours...but I still consider it to be 'too short'...lol. We get coastal New England weather where I live....less cold, and more 'wet slop'. In any case, I'll be out riding in April....and sometimes late March if the weather and roads allow. In any case, the cold weather in the spring will be perfect for some road-testing...it'll still be too cold to go too far, but I can at least get out for some Autotune O2 runs to see how everything is working.

At some point and time, we will develop some ECU maps that can be shared and tried by other people. It's really no different from what we've already been doing with Power Commander maps for the last decade, except now we also have the ability to modify the STP maps, which is a neat feature. The Woolich Racing 'MapShare' database will get some maps added to it at some point...by us, or others, and hopefully there will be some different versions to cover different C-14 modifications...slip-on exhaust, full system, etc, etc.

Cory ;D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 10, 2014, 11:27:57 am
If I do in fact get the WRT set-up, I don't really think that I will set the 'flies to 100% open all of the time. I would however definitely have them opening much sooner/quicker than stock-
My above comment was more of a hypothetical...
I understand what your talking about Brian(and it sounds like we are in agreement). I still feel like it could be done without any issues if the fueling map is also correctly adjusted. I have a feeling that the ecu's high idle map(based on air/engine temp. info received by the ecu?) would indeed override whatever maps are "WRT adjusted" until proper operating temperatures are achieved. The ecu would then default back to whatever your custom maps are. Just like the TC system... once the ecu senses certain parameters, the fuel/butterfly/ignition maps are "overridden".
If for some reason the high-idle actually is affected by having the 'flies set to 100% all of the time, couldn't you work around that by leaving the butterfly map stock up to around say 1800-2000rpm and then set the rest of the map to 100%? Or even easier, just leave all of the "zero" cells alone and change all other cells to 100.
Just brain-storming here- :017:

I think you have the right idea by not wanting to open the STP's to 100% during idle. I'll test it sometime this spring, once the engine is already warmed up to operating temp. I suspect opening them 100% from the get-go will result in a high idle...or at best an irregular idle.
If you really wanted to create a map to mimic complete removal of the secondary flies, I think it would be best to not open them more than, lets say 40-45% until approximately 1500 RPM @ 12-15% TPS. I think opening them to 100% prior to these points may cause some problems.

First of all, since the STP's do control the high idle mechanically, the ECU can't exactly 'override' this in the mapping (at least I don't think so). The only thing the ECU will do is add more fuel to compensate for the added air flow....resulting in a high idle.

I guess it really depends on whether or not the ECU overrides the STP map during cold starts. During a cold start, the ECU is going to open the STP's to 100%, and then close them as the engine warms up and reaches it's warm set-point. I'd be willing to bet that once the engine reaches normal operating temp that the ECU reverts to the stock STP map. If this is what the ECU is doing....then having the STP's set to 100% in all cells will more than likely result in a high (cold) idle, even when the engine is up to normal temp.

I can test this later...it will be very easy to see what happens.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: gPink on February 10, 2014, 11:40:04 am
FWIW, the flies are out on my '08. Idle is set at 1100 rpm. Cold start (40F +) idle raises to 1500-1600, drops back down to 1100 in three to five minutes.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 10, 2014, 11:51:43 am
FWIW, the flies are out on my '08. Idle is set at 1100 rpm. Cold start (40F +) idle raises to 1500-1600, drops back down to 1100 in three to five minutes.

Yup...that sounds about right. I had the flies out on my 08 C14 as well. It's actually the secondary flies motor/shaft that is opening the throttle to raise the RPM for the high idle. In order to do this, the secondary flies shaft would have to be either at 100% open, or very close to it. Once the normal engine run temp is reached, the secondary flies shaft rotates (closes) and drops back to 0% (closed), which closes the throttle at the same time.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: BDF on February 10, 2014, 12:10:25 pm
Well, per your other post, if the H.S. idle cams are engaged in the 45 degree range then there is absolutely no problem and that won't be a consideration.

As to how much to open them and how quickly, I don't think the secondaries do anything as far as I can see because once they are gone, there is no loss of performance, quality of idle or anything else I can detect. Of course there may be some use on a bike that has T/C but I have no experience with that as my C-14 does not have it.

Anyway, I think this is going to be a very interesting journey and should have some great rewards. Looking forward to hearing about how it all works once the weather will cooperate a bit more.

Brian

If I do in fact get the WRT set-up, I don't really think that I will set the 'flies to 100% open all of the time. I would however definitely have them opening much sooner/quicker than stock-
My above comment was more of a hypothetical...
I understand what your talking about Brian(and it sounds like we are in agreement). I still feel like it could be done without any issues if the fueling map is also correctly adjusted. I have a feeling that the ecu's high idle map(based on air/engine temp. info received by the ecu?) would indeed override whatever maps are "WRT adjusted" until proper operating temperatures are achieved. The ecu would then default back to whatever your custom maps are. Just like the TC system... once the ecu senses certain parameters, the fuel/butterfly/ignition maps are "overridden".
If for some reason the high-idle actually is affected by having the 'flies set to 100% all of the time, couldn't you work around that by leaving the butterfly map stock up to around say 1800-2000rpm and then set the rest of the map to 100%? Or even easier, just leave all of the "zero" cells alone and change all other cells to 100.
Just brain-storming here- :017:
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 10, 2014, 12:37:34 pm
As to how much to open them and how quickly, I don't think the secondaries do anything as far as I can see because once they are gone, there is no loss of performance, quality of idle or anything else I can detect.

Yes, but...even though the plates are gone, the STP shaft still has an effect on idle. It's hard to say what it would do in the 100% open position during warm idle...but I suspect that it was cause a high (cold) idle.

I can check it out later....like 1-2 months later...lol. I'll let y'all know.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Cold Streak on February 10, 2014, 01:44:12 pm
Quote
I'm probably gonna be booed, but I gotta ask. This beast is so frigging fast, and decent on fuel, why would anyone want to make it faster, or am I missing something?   Does reflashing, or altering the flies make it that much better?  Just asking.

Personally, I want to have more torque at lower speeds and rpms.  The seat of the pants and dyno results indicate and substantial increase (15-20%) in torque and power in the lower rpm ranges.  I have my girlfriend on the back quite often with full luggage and it could use a bit more grunt at normal highway speeds.  I don't need more top end.  Also, when changing the exhaust system to one with less restriction, less weight, better sound, it's nice to be able to tune the ECU for best fueling. 

On the question of setting the STP to 100% all the time, it certainly seems that removing them does that exactly.  I haven't seen the STP shaft.  Isn't it round with the center section machined flat for mounting the plate, like most other throttle shafts?  I don't see how it would matter much if it was turned one way or the other without the throttle plate on it. 
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 10, 2014, 01:49:22 pm
Isn't it round with the center section machined flat for mounting the plate, like most other throttle shafts?  I don't see how it would matter much if it was turned one way or the other without the throttle plate on it.

With regards to flow through the throttle bodies, no it wouldn't matter. The issue is that the STP shaft is also used to control the high idle during cold starts, whether the secondary plates are intact or not.

This is why you would not notice a difference in idle with the plates removed...the secondary throttle plate shaft is still doing it's original job with regards to high idle control.

Rem ;D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Tundra Tom on February 10, 2014, 08:16:17 pm
I'm probably gonna be booed, but I gotta ask. This beast is so frigging fast, and decent on fuel, why would anyone want to make it faster, or am I missing something?   Does reflashing, or altering the flies make it that much better?  Just asking.    :-[

Bruce, no problem. Many have asked the same question and EVERYONE who has pulled the flies on the first gen. (08-09) has stated this is how they should have come from the factory. The difference down low is substantial but by no means makes it un-manageable. I assume the re-flash on the second gen. has a similar effect. Let's face it, anyone riding a C-14 is experienced enough to not have nanny aides programmed into the ECU.
Oh and +1 on the skiing Cold Streak  :great:
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LakeTrax on February 10, 2014, 11:01:08 pm
...........
I guess it really depends on whether or not the ECU overrides the STP map during cold starts.
............
Exactly...
We all agree that the STP map is "over-ridden" by the ecu when TC kicks in, so maybe it does on cold start-ups too?

You mentioned the STP's going to full open for cold-starts and then gradually backing off as the engine warms, but I thought you said earlier that the STP's shaft/cam is only effective on the throttle plates when they are turned roughly +/-45 degrees? :017:

Stay with me here Rembrandt, these are just my thoughts and ramblings about all of this... I've researched re-flashes and PCV's for too long. :(
I haven't dug deep enough into my C14 yet to scope out the throttle bodies, but I really appreciate all of your feedback with this WRT set-up....

During cold-starts, I don't think there is a richer/different fuel map 'per se'. I think the only thing that is "over-ridden" is the STP map- We won't know until you or someone else says differently...

Because of the mechanical linkage between the STP's and the throttle-plates themselves, I think the STP's map is "over-ridden" and they open to your roughly quoted 45degs during cold starts... This opens the throttle plates a certain percentage. All of this "fools" the ecu into giving the injectors more fuel(as if you were holding the throttle partially open). Look at the stock fuel map in neutral at 10-20% throttle around 1800rpms. I bet it is delivering more fuel than the cell at 0% throttle & 1100rpms...?
As engine temps. rise(and after blipping the throttle a time or two :motonoises:) the ecu recognizes proper operating temps. have been achieved. When it recognizes this, on a stock bike it shuts the STP's back to "zero". This in turn closes the throttle plates and reduces the idle back to 1150ish rpms.
This is the point where your all 100% secondary map(or whatever custom map) would be in effect. As I said earlier, you must fuel accordingly... but there are plenty of people running around with no secondary flies at all and their bikes idle just fine once the engine is warm. Again, if the fueling is mapped accordingly for 100% open/no 'flies...
Hope I'm making sense here?

..........
Anyway, I think this is going to be a very interesting journey and should have some great rewards. Looking forward to hearing about how it all works once the weather will cooperate a bit more.

Brian
Agreed!
Get crackin' Rembrandt!!! :beerchug:
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: nando on February 10, 2014, 11:33:42 pm
My mother is very proud of me for reading this thread. "Hanging out with intelligent people son" said she to me.
The reality is, I don't understand a word of it.  :(
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 10, 2014, 11:34:11 pm
We all agree that the STP map is "over-ridden" by the ecu when TC kicks in, so maybe it does on cold start-ups too?

You mentioned the STP's going to full open for cold-starts and then gradually backing off as the engine warms, but I thought you said earlier that the STP's shaft/cam is only effective on the throttle plates when they are turned roughly +/-45 degrees? :017:

Stay with me here Rembrandt, these are just my thoughts and ramblings about all of this... I've researched re-flashes and PCV's for too long. :(

Sorry Mr. Trax...lol. My written word does not always convey my actual meaning very well...lol. What I meant was, and what is actually happening is: The STP high idle cam does not come into contact with the throttle linkage until approx. 45 degrees (STP 50% open). From that point on, the cam profile changes very little, so for 50%-100% travel of the STP shaft, the throttle plate moves very little. When the STP shaft is at 100%, the throttle is cracked just a little...the edge of the throttle plate travels less than 2mm. This is the high idle position.

During cold-starts, I don't think there is a richer/different fuel map 'per se'. I think the only thing that is "over-ridden" is the STP map- We won't know until you or someone else says differently...

Actually, there is a different map. At idle, the engine runs on an IAP map (Idle Air Pressure). There is a MAP sensor on the throttle bodies, and an air temp sensor in the air box (under the fuel tank). So, the ECU is calculating air density and is adjusting the fuel accordingly. So, when the STP shaft cracks the throttle open, the pressure differential changes, and the ECU adjusts the fuel to bring the engine up to high/cold idle. The IAP map looks like the fuel map, except instead of measuring the throttle position, it measures the differential pressure.

Because of the mechanical linkage between the STP's and the throttle-plates themselves, I think the STP's map is "over-ridden" and they open to your roughly quoted 45degs during cold starts... This opens the throttle plates a certain percentage.

Yes, I agree....except the STP's open all the way. There would be a cold-start routine in the ECU that overrides the stock STP map. Even if the flies are removed, the secondary butterfly shaft is still closed anyway. At idle, the STP shaft is at 0%...the ECU has to override it and tell it to go to 100% for high idle.

As engine temps. rise(and after blipping the throttle a time or two :motonoises:) the ecu recognizes proper operating temps. have been achieved. When it recognizes this, on a stock bike it shuts the STP's back to "zero". This in turn closes the throttle plates and reduces the idle back to 1150ish rpms.

Yes, exactly.

This is the point where your all 100% secondary map(or whatever custom map) would be in effect. As I said earlier, you must fuel accordingly... but there are plenty of people running around with no secondary flies at all and their bikes idle just fine once the engine iswarm. Again, if the fueling is mapped accordingly for 100% open/no 'flies...
Hope I'm making sense here?

Oh yes, you're making all kinds of sense...lol. However, this is where I think there will be a problem. Once the cold-start routine is complete, and normal operating temp is reached, the ECU will revert back to the stock STP map, which is supposed to be at 0%, in which case the throttle plates will close, and the engine will return to the 1100-1150 RPM idle. This is just my assumption, but if the STP map is set to 100% in every cell, then the engine will be stuck on the high idle all the time....because the STP shaft will always be forcing the throttle plates open (slightly). The IAP map will take over at idle and send it right back up to 1500-1600 RPM.

I'd have to test it to be sure, but I assume that is what will happen.

Now, AM I making any sense?...lol.

Ya know, we could always be discussing what is the best oil to use, or what does "Low Transponder Battery" mean?...lol.

Rem
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 10, 2014, 11:40:51 pm
My mother is very proud of me for reading this thread. "Hanging out with intelligent people son" said she to me.
The reality is, I don't understand a word of it.  :(

Hang in there Nando...it'll all make sense in the end;). ;D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LakeTrax on February 11, 2014, 01:33:00 am
................
Sorry Mr. Trax...lol. My written word does not always convey my actual meaning very well...lol.
....................
Rem
No worries! Neither does mine...
Thanks for more good info btw-
I'm just happy to be jivin' with somebody about all of this stuff! :) :beerchug:
I've been waiting for some real feedback, instead of the old... "I got re-flashed" or "I've got a PCV/Auto-tune" routine-

Considering all of the facts.... you've got a C14, a KDS, and WRT...? Dang mayon...
I will simply continue to pray that you do all of the hard work and have this stuff already mapped out for me by summer. O:-)
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 11, 2014, 01:52:08 am
Considering all of the facts.... you've got a C14, a KDS, and WRT...? Dang mayon...

Yes....piles of wires and junk all over the kitchen counter half the time...the wife is not impressed...lol.

It's been a long winter. Once my exhaust and PC5 shows up, I can get into some tuning. I already have an Autotune that I bought from another member, so once spring arrives, I should be good to go.

Depending on how all that works, I may make a trip to the dyno, we'll see.

If I get ambitious this weekend, I'll throw the stock exhaust back on the C14 and try some things out.

I'm also anxious to hear how the other guys make out with the WRT software. Looks like there's at least two other guys that purchased kits....maybe more?

Rem :great:

Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LakeTrax on February 11, 2014, 01:59:36 am
Yes....piles of wires and junk all over the kitchen counter half the time...the wife is not impressed...lol.
Honey, are we having spaghetti or CAN bus for dinner?  :-\

Keep up the good work buddy, no doubt I'll be tuning in! :great:
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 14, 2014, 09:01:56 pm
I have purchased and received the Woolrich software for modifying the  ECU on my 2010 C14.

Hey LSGiant,

Did you happen to connect to and read your ECU yet?

Did Justin have to create a definition for your BIN-File?

I was looking at the 2011-up Non-CA BIN-file in the software, and it's all messed up.
Just wondering if you noticed it or not?
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on February 15, 2014, 12:13:06 am
I have not done anything except follow along on the Woolrich site and load the bin file.  Starting to wonder if these guys were ready for prime time.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 16, 2014, 08:45:49 pm
And there is the other problem; I do not remember where the secondaries are when they are being used to activate the high idle but if it is well into the open range, setting them to 100% open could cause a sudden and dangerous high idle. :-(  What I would suggest Cory would be to take a look at the linkage on the left side of the TB's and see where the high idle cam is on the secondaries- as long as it is operational well below 100%, it should be perfectly safe to try fully opening the 'flies all the time. But again, I would seriously check on that first....

Brian

I did just check on this, and the secondary flies DO actuate the throttle if they're opened to soon.

I'll check on it a little more, but if the STP map is set to 100% open too soon, it will actuate the throttle, even above idle. It could be very dangerous, just FYI.

I didn't have them opened in every cell to 100%, but I did have them opening pretty early.

Having the STP's 100% open in every cell is going to create undesirable results. Be careful fellas.

Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: gPink on February 16, 2014, 08:57:31 pm
Rem, I'm trying to figure the difference between setting the fly maps to 100% and removing them. Is this because the mechanism (stepper motor/shaft) affects the primaries and high idle, and not the secondary throttle plate position?
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 16, 2014, 09:30:34 pm
Rem, I'm trying to figure the difference between setting the fly maps to 100% and removing them. Is this because the mechanism (stepper motor/shaft) affects the primaries and high idle, and not the secondary throttle plate position?

Yes, pretty much. The secondary throttle mechanism (stepper motor/shaft) also controls the high idle. It does this whether the secondary butterfly plates are removed or not.

Removing the secondary butterfly plates simply removes them as a restriction and allows more air flow. It does not affect the mechanism.

Setting the secondary butterflies to 100% open via the ECU affects the mechanism, which in turn affects the throttle at small throttle openings.

It's ok to set the secondary fly mechanism to be open to 100%, obviously Guhl and others have been doing it for a while, but they can only be set to 100% once the primary throttle is past a certain point...maybe 20% open...I'm not exactly sure.

I did a test with my spare ECU, and had the secondary flies opening to 100% pretty early. I didn't have them open too early in the RPM range, but I did have them open to soon in the throttle position range. With no load on the engine, it takes very little throttle opening to raise the RPM. The way I had them set, the secondary butterfly shaft cam actuated the throttle and sent the RPM's into orbit. I hit the kill switch @ 5000 RPM.

I had no intention of opening them 100% all of the time anyway, I was just testing them to see what would happen if I did. Doesn't look like a good idea to me.

Just a warning to the guys that plan on modifying their butterfly maps.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: gPink on February 16, 2014, 10:16:06 pm
"I did a test with my spare ECU, and had the secondary flies opening to 100% pretty early. I didn't have them open too early in the RPM range, but I did have them open to soon in the throttle position range. With no load on the engine, it takes very little throttle opening to raise the RPM. The way I had them set, the secondary butterflies hit the throttle and sent the RPM's into orbit. I hit the kill switch @ 5000 RPM."

Do you mean they physically hit the throttle?
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 16, 2014, 10:24:47 pm
"I did a test with my spare ECU, and had the secondary flies opening to 100% pretty early. I didn't have them open too early in the RPM range, but I did have them open to soon in the throttle position range. With no load on the engine, it takes very little throttle opening to raise the RPM. The way I had them set, the secondary butterflies hit the throttle and sent the RPM's into orbit. I hit the kill switch @ 5000 RPM."

Do you mean they physically hit the throttle?

No...sorry, there I go again...I'm not very good at writing down what I'm thinking...lol.

I meant that the high idle cam on the end of the secondary butterfly shaft actuated the throttle linkage.

Hang on....lol, I'll go back and correct that;).
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: gPink on February 16, 2014, 10:26:18 pm
Got it. :)
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: BDF on February 16, 2014, 11:14:36 pm
I know Cory answered this correctly but I thought I could expand a bit on what is going on regarding the secondaries and the high idle. It is not intuitive, at least in my opinion, and it is a little on the 'tricky' side (and quite clever IMO).

On the end of the secondaries throttle rod (the " 'flies"), there is a cam that is solidly mounted to the throttle shaft. The secondary 'flies travel ~ 90 degrees from as fully closed as they can get (plates across the throttle body bores) to fully open. But as the throttle rod rotates, it also rotates the cam that rides on a follower on the main throttles; this is how they cause the engine to run fast when it is cold (the 'high idle'). While the two different mechanisms are on the same throttle rod, they are not really inter- related in any other way; when the engine is idling, we do not care where the secondary 'flies are in their travel. Same thing when the secondaries are being opened because the engine is at a high main throttle setting and reaching high RPM- who cares where the idle is set at that point? So Kawasaki cleverly combined the two functions in one mechanism and it works like a charm.... if and until someone comes along and alters the way the system works in the first place. So by setting the 'flies to be 100% open all the time, the risk is that that will engage the high idle cam (which it does according to Cory, and I am confident he has been looking at it recently  ;D  ).

If the secondary throttle plates are simply removed, they are effectively open all the time but the secondary throttle rod continues to rotate, the ECU continues to control the secondaries (that are not there any longer) so the high idle function still works perfectly correctly.

As Cory has already said, the easy way around this is to simply fully open the secondaries only at higher throttle settings and leave the stock settings below, say, 10% throttle (or some such similar number).

Brian

Rem, I'm trying to figure the difference between setting the fly maps to 100% and removing them. Is this because the mechanism (stepper motor/shaft) affects the primaries and high idle, and not the secondary throttle plate position?
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 16, 2014, 11:33:08 pm
I know Cory answered this correctly but I thought I could expand a bit on what is going on regarding the secondaries and the high idle. It is not intuitive, at least in my opinion, and it is a little on the 'tricky' side (and quite clever IMO).

Hey, I'll take all the help I can get...lol.

The problem is, I didn't realize how much (and how fast) the RPM's would change with such little movement in the primary throttle. With no load on the engine, she'll spin up pretty quickly. I have a set of ZX14 throttle bodies on the bench, so I can see exactly how much, and how far everything moves when the STP shaft is actuating the throttle linkage.

I can also view throttle and secondary butterfly positions in real-time when the KDS is connected, so I'll play with it a little more later. I will change the STP mapping again, now that I know where not to open the flies to 100%. ;D

It's still interesting stuff and I'm having some fun with it.

On a side note, I did find something else out today. I installed my spare ECU and registered it with the KiPass ECU, and it worked like a charm. When I re-installed my original stock ECU, I did not have to re-register it, so now I have two ECU's registered. I assumed that registering one would unregister the other, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The KiPass ECU must have a certain amount of ECU memory 'slots' like it does for the FOBs. I'll have to look into that some more.

Cheers,
Cory ;D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LakeTrax on February 17, 2014, 04:39:54 am
More interesting stuff Cory! :beerchug:

I read your other post today about the engine temps./bar gauge. Just for the heck of it(with stock maps/settings), it would be interesting to do a cold start with the KDS tool hooked up and see what actual engine temps. are achieved before the ecu closes the secondaries(in turn closing the throttle plates) and lowers to the idle to the regular 1150-ish rpms. Also cool to know that the KiPass system will acknowledge multiple ecu's. Good to know for future salvage jobs! :great:

A couple of things that this new info has got me thinkin'... It seems like you could figure out how to build the lower end of your modified STP map using the KDS tool. During a cold start, the KDS will show the opened percentage of the STP's. In turn, it shows how far that particular STP percentage opens the throttle plates. If you take those figures into account and "sorta run 'em backwards", you should be able to find out how low of a throttle position is a safe point to start opening the 'flies right?

I guess we know that the battle here will be finding the "sweet-spot". Opening the STP's too far/too soon at too low of a throttle position/rpms will cause the rev's to rise in an non-linear(and possibly dangerous) fashion. On the other hand, opening the STP's too late/too suddenly leaves un-tapped low-end power on the table and/or could give the C14's powerband a "v-tec" or "light-switch" type of feel. Sorta like nothing to everything-
This "sweet-spot" is why I'm so interested in the WRT set-up. It seems like it would allow you to get it just right according to your desires. Not every rider wants/needs the same thing in terms of performance(and most probably don't wanna take the time to fool with all of the tuning), but personally I've always wanted the most aggressive butterfly map possible. Most aggressive yet still keeping the power smooth-
I've been leery of paying for a reflash simply because I will never be certain that what I got is truly the best in regards to mimicking having the 'flies removed altogether. And because I will just be getting a generic fuel map that is "pretty close"- It would be really cool once you have your custom STP map made to get a hold of a "reflashed" ecu and compare the STP maps. I wonder if they will be close to the same, or would the mail-order reflashes still leave something to be desired.? Time will tell I suppose... Never thought to ask before, but does Guhl give out his map info?

Heck, after all of this... I'm beginning to think that Brian may be right.  :o
If I want the most aggressive set-up, maybe I really should just pull the secondaries and slap on a PCV & autotune. I'll just have to decide for myself if I can live with a "harsh/slow/un-smooth/whatever" TC system... I already do with the linked-brakes anyways.  ;)
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on February 17, 2014, 09:39:07 am
I read your other post today about the engine temps./bar gauge. Just for the heck of it(with stock maps/settings), it would be interesting to do a cold start with the KDS tool hooked up and see what actual engine temps. are achieved before the ecu closes the secondaries(in turn closing the throttle plates) and lowers to the idle to the regular 1150-ish rpms.

I'll check that next time around Trax and post the temps in the other thread. Good idea.

A couple of things that this new info has got me thinkin'... It seems like you could figure out how to build the lower end of your modified STP map using the KDS tool. During a cold start, the KDS will show the opened percentage of the STP's. In turn, it shows how far that particular STP percentage opens the throttle plates. If you take those figures into account and "sorta run 'em backwards", you should be able to find out how low of a throttle position is a safe point to start opening the 'flies right?

Yup. Don't even have to really run 'em backwards either. With the ignition on, but the engine off, in the KDS you still have access to the various data, like throttle and STP positions. If I move the secondary butterfly shaft manually, I can read it's position on the sensor, and note the voltage where the throttle starts to move. I'll get at that later...I have more C14 'tupperware' to remove for that;).

I've been leery of paying for a reflash simply because I will never be certain that what I got is truly the best in regards to mimicking having the 'flies removed altogether. And because I will just be getting a generic fuel map that is "pretty close"- It would be really cool once you have your custom STP map made to get a hold of a "reflashed" ecu and compare the STP maps. I wonder if they will be close to the same, or would the mail-order reflashes still leave something to be desired.? Time will tell I suppose... Never thought to ask before, but does Guhl give out his map info?

The send-in 'reflashed' ECU's have the STP's snapping to 100% open at approximately 3500 RPM, and in top gear even earlier, like at 3000 RPM. It would be easier (safer?) to open the STP's to 100% at lower RPM's in the higher gears because the throttle position would be further open due to the load on the engine.
My concern with the send-in ECU re-flashing has less to do with the STP's and more to do with overall performance. Some guys have been very happy with their re-flashed ECU's, but some have not. I'd hate to spend $400 having my ECU re-flashed, and then not really feel much of an improvement in performance. I think it depends a lot on how you ride as to whether or not you feel a boost. As they say, YMMV. ;D

I highly doubt Guhl or anybody else will give out their map info. I have seen his maps posted on other forums (for other Kawasaki's), but they were just fuel maps, not STP maps. If somebody has the ECU software and wants to look at previously flashed ECU's, it's no problem to do so.   

Heck, after all of this... I'm beginning to think that Brian may be right.
If I want the most aggressive set-up, maybe I really should just pull the secondaries and slap on a PCV & autotune. I'll just have to decide for myself if I can live with a "harsh/slow/un-smooth/whatever" TC system... I already do with the linked-brakes anyways.

Brian? Right?...lol. Geez, don't tell him that!!...lol.

My PCV should be here in a few weeks, and the Autotune is already here;).
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: nando on February 17, 2014, 05:12:30 pm
Absolutely, I agree
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: BDF on February 17, 2014, 05:33:03 pm
Brian may be right? Hey, we're just discussing stuff here, no need to go nuts and start making insane accusations....  ;D

As Cory already mentioned I think, choosing the map area where the high speed idle cam is engaged is really quite direct and easy- just look at the cam / linkage and it will be obvious where the cam actually engages the throttle. Note the degree or percentage of opening at that point and all done- stay away from that area unless the throttle is, say, 5% or 10% open at a minimum and all will be well.

As far as the 'best place for the 'flies', I find on my desk works quite well :-)  Seriously, I do not find my C-14 to act abruptdly, suddenly or in any other way other than exactly as I would expect and prefer. It is nothing to fear and not something that needs any taming IMO, just a large, potentially powerful bike that runs and acts perfectly and has great manners. Sure if one is going to slap the throttle half- open on every launch, then one is going to get a pretty snappy ride (as well as the passenger (!) ), and the bike will lift the front wheel now and then. But I think that is perfectly normal on a modern, correctly running, 1,400 cc bike. In fact, I thought the bike was a bit 'broken' with the 'flies in as it was neutered below about 5K, 6K RPM in my opinion. Opening the 'flies all the time or simply removing them merely corrects the vehicle into what it should always have been in my opinion. I can understand whey Kawasaki felt the need to protect the unaware rider, or perhaps the tourer rider moving to this modern sport tourer, from what is really quite a high performance bike given the saddlebags and all but I do not have that need or expectation.

But I do understand that some may prefer a slightly de- tuned bike. We are all different, have different wants and needs, and of course there may be some who do want a gentler, tamer bike and would prefer some level of ECU throttle management. ?? Hey, for all we talk about modifying the bike, I bet the vast majority of C-14's in use right now are stock regarding the engine or at most have a slip- on muffler on them.

As far as what Cory is doing, well that is just too cool. Who would not want to tinker in there for all he / she was worth?

Brian

More interesting stuff Cory! :beerchug:

I read your other post today about the engine temps./bar gauge. Just for the heck of it(with stock maps/settings), it would be interesting to do a cold start with the KDS tool hooked up and see what actual engine temps. are achieved before the ecu closes the secondaries(in turn closing the throttle plates) and lowers to the idle to the regular 1150-ish rpms. Also cool to know that the KiPass system will acknowledge multiple ecu's. Good to know for future salvage jobs! :great:

A couple of things that this new info has got me thinkin'... It seems like you could figure out how to build the lower end of your modified STP map using the KDS tool. During a cold start, the KDS will show the opened percentage of the STP's. In turn, it shows how far that particular STP percentage opens the throttle plates. If you take those figures into account and "sorta run 'em backwards", you should be able to find out how low of a throttle position is a safe point to start opening the 'flies right?

I guess we know that the battle here will be finding the "sweet-spot". Opening the STP's too far/too soon at too low of a throttle position/rpms will cause the rev's to rise in an non-linear(and possibly dangerous) fashion. On the other hand, opening the STP's too late/too suddenly leaves un-tapped low-end power on the table and/or could give the C14's powerband a "v-tec" or "light-switch" type of feel. Sorta like nothing to everything-
This "sweet-spot" is why I'm so interested in the WRT set-up. It seems like it would allow you to get it just right according to your desires. Not every rider wants/needs the same thing in terms of performance(and most probably don't wanna take the time to fool with all of the tuning), but personally I've always wanted the most aggressive butterfly map possible. Most aggressive yet still keeping the power smooth-
I've been leery of paying for a reflash simply because I will never be certain that what I got is truly the best in regards to mimicking having the 'flies removed altogether. And because I will just be getting a generic fuel map that is "pretty close"- It would be really cool once you have your custom STP map made to get a hold of a "reflashed" ecu and compare the STP maps. I wonder if they will be close to the same, or would the mail-order reflashes still leave something to be desired.? Time will tell I suppose... Never thought to ask before, but does Guhl give out his map info?

Heck, after all of this... I'm beginning to think that Brian may be right.  :o
If I want the most aggressive set-up, maybe I really should just pull the secondaries and slap on a PCV & autotune. I'll just have to decide for myself if I can live with a "harsh/slow/un-smooth/whatever" TC system... I already do with the linked-brakes anyways.  ;)
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LakeTrax on February 18, 2014, 12:57:54 am
Brian may be right? Hey, we're just discussing stuff here, no need to go nuts and start making insane accusations....  ;D
......
I should have made that comment last night in BOLD ITALICS! :rotflmao:

.......
Seriously, I do not find my C-14 to act abruptdly, suddenly or in any other way other than exactly as I would expect and prefer.
.......
I believe you Brian... and neither have any of the other motorcycles that I've ridden/owned that were properly tuned and had the secondary 'flies removed.

The entire debate/problem is that when you remove the secondary 'flies on a 2nd gen. C14, the TC system is "supposedly" affected in a negative way...
Without pulling 'em and finding out for myself, I don't know who to believe... Who's advice should I/we be taking as gospel? There have been conflicting reports on this for a long time, and personally I believe it has more to do with the rider's sensitivity to such things than the simple "TC doesn't work well with the 'flies removed" regurgitated response. This is why I'm stoked to hear about this new WRT equipment and to read about guys like Cory that are doin' the leg-work(at home) to possibly find the "best-of-both worlds" settings.

Hey... if I owned an 08-09 model, my 'flies would have already been removed too. :-[
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: nando on February 18, 2014, 02:05:39 am
I have never removed my flies. I don't see how some of you guys do that and function...I guess you have to slide your pants off and sit-down like a girl to whizz...people nowadays!
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on March 08, 2014, 10:26:00 pm
Sooo, back to this WRT software...

Have any of you guys tried your Woolich kits yet?

I installed and tested an On-Bike harness today, so I can now flash my ECU without removing it from the bike.

The weather is starting to warm up and everything is melting, so I should be out road testing in a couple weeks! ;D

Is everybody else still covered in snow??...lol.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on March 08, 2014, 10:38:03 pm
Still covered in snow. Did you decide if you were going to share your map ? I am just curios as to where you ended up STP plate opening point ? I have to get out and at least try mine connections a week before the Tech session.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on March 08, 2014, 10:57:41 pm
Still covered in snow. Did you decide if you were going to share your map ? I am just curios as to where you ended up STP plate opening point ? I have to get out and at least try mine connections a week before the Tech session.

The snow is going fast here, but it's still piled high in places. Roads will be dirty for a little while yet.
It was 40 degrees today...I would have been riding if the roads were clean (and I had my parts that are on back order).

I don't mind sharing any maps, but not until I test them myself on the road.
Can't do a proper test in the garage, and I don't want to send out any maybes.

I'll send you what I have as soon as I finish it. ;D

Rem :great:




Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on March 22, 2014, 05:21:04 pm
Hey LSGiant,

I see the BIN file for the newer (2011-up) C14's is now available in the WRT software, so you should be good to go whenever you get around to reading your ECU (with no delays).

There's a 2nd gen European C14 BIN file loaded up now too, in case you wanted to have a look at it. Looks to be pretty much the same as ours, except it's a little leaner at idle;).

I have another Kawi ECU to flash now...just picked up a ZX6R/636 ECU today and will be flashing it shortly.

Spring is in the air folks...I'll be on the road next weekend if this mild weather keeps up;).

Cheers,
Rem ;D



Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on March 22, 2014, 06:39:25 pm
trying PM sent
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on March 29, 2014, 11:33:23 pm
I was at a our COG session today and was able to hook up and talk to my my ECU today. It all worked great. I am busy for the next few weeks but i will get my map written and give it a try.

Stay tuned :)
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on March 29, 2014, 11:49:24 pm
I was at a our COG session today and was able to hook up and talk to my my ECU today. It all worked great. I am busy for the next few weeks but i will get my map written and give it a try.

Stay tuned :)

Cool beans LSGiant! That's great. I think you'll have some fun with it.

If all goes well, I'll have some tuned maps for you to try in a few weeks.

Keep us posted!!

Cheers,
Cory ;D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on March 30, 2014, 12:29:13 am
I know what I want to do should only take me an hour or so to modify the maps. I like dumping the data to Excel and then tweaking and then moving it back.  It was nice to go back and read through the thread. I think I have enough data to decide where I want to start my STPs opening. I look forward to spanking the FJR guys I ride with when we do high gear roll ons.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on March 30, 2014, 12:55:38 am
Excellent!

Something to keep in mind, when you write a modified BIN File to the ECU, make use of the notes section. I have been writing the name of the BIN File in there...whatever name you decide to give it, etc. This is the only way to know what BIN File you have loaded. If you go back and 'read' your ECU again, you will see in the notes what BIN File it is. I thought that the ECU saved the name that I gave the modified BIN Files, but it does not. Just FYI.

Have fun with it, and keep us posted on your progress and results!

Nice work LS!

Cory ;D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on March 30, 2014, 01:05:37 am
Thanks for the tip I had also assumed the file would change. Did you determine if there was a different STP map for ECO and normal mode ?

Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on March 30, 2014, 11:18:47 am
Thanks for the tip I had also assumed the file would change. Did you determine if there was a different STP map for ECO and normal mode ?

Currently we only have access to the 'normal' mode STP maps. The Map Select (0/1) tab in the WRT software is a carry over from some of the sportbike models where you can switch between different maps. It doesn't do anything in our C14 maps. For your STP changes, use the map that opens by default, Map Select (0).

We do have full access to the fuel and ignition maps for ECO mode, but I personally have no plans to touch them. My curiosity on the ECO mode STP maps has passed as I really don't plan on touching ECO mode anyway. Woolich is going to spend some more time on the C14 BIN Files again soon, so we may end up with some more access...maybe the ECO mode STP maps, or fan temp control, etc.

Cheers,
Cory



 

Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Jon on April 09, 2014, 06:37:52 pm
Please forgive my ignorance here  :-[, but I am not understanding why you would need both the pcv w/auto tune and this. Don't both of these accomplish similar changes to the bike? I get the Wollrich does not have maps pre-built and you would need to do your own tweeking vs the pcv, but I am not understanding why both are needed, or how you would use both together. I guess what I don't understand is what the Wollrich gives you that the pcv does not.
Does the pcv have the ability to change the mapping for the secondary butterfly's?   ???
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on April 09, 2014, 07:30:59 pm
Please forgive my ignorance here  :-[, but I am not understanding why you would need both the pcv w/auto tune and this. Don't both of these accomplish similar changes to the bike? I get the Wollrich does not have maps pre-built and you would need to do your own tweeking vs the pcv, but I am not understanding why both are needed, or how you would use both together. I guess what I don't understand is what the Wollrich gives you that the pcv does not.
Does the pcv have the ability to change the mapping for the secondary butterfly's?   ???

Hi Jon,

There isn't really a quick answer to your question(s), but you're right...in most case you wouldn't need both a PC5 with Autotune, and the Woolich DIY ECU software. You may have read earlier on that I have both, but it's only because of the way I ordered things with the scheduling, and I ended up with both.

To summarize it, the PC5 is a fuel controller....and that's all it does. The Autotune gives you greater control and ability to tune the map yourself, but you're still only controlling the fuel.

When making changes inside the ECU, there are more options....you can adjust the secondary butterfly opening, ignition timing, fuel maps, and you can adjust the RPM limits and disable the top speed limiter, etc. It doesn't matter if you do it yourself with the Woolich software or if you have another company flash the ECU for you, there are a few more options available.
The companies that specialize in flashing ECU's have pre-made maps they can load into the ECU's. With the Woolich DIY software, there are currently no pre-made maps for the Concours-14, but only because it is a new addition to the software. As C14 owners start tuning their bikes and sharing their maps, there will be options available later on.

There is a way to transfer PC5 maps into the ECU's, and people have been doing this successfully, so that's where the two full systems come into play. Building your own maps using the PC5, loading them into the ECU, and then fine tuning again and again until you get it where you want it. Definitely not for everybody.

There are lots of guys running flashed ECU's and still running PC5's on top of them (on other Kawis). I don't think this would be required on a sport-touring bike like the Concours-14, but for the guys looking for absolute peak performance, it seems the best way is to do it with both (like drag racing for example).

Hope that helps.

Rem ;D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: BDF on April 09, 2014, 07:46:18 pm
This post reminds me- did you ever get the auto tune add- on gadget working on the C-14? The one from Woolich? As I remember, the wiring harness was for a ZX 14 and there was some question as to whether or not it would work on a C-14.... if I remember correctly? And of course, the C-14 needs a bung welded in the exhaust and an O2 sensor no matter what system is used to close the loop. I guess I am just checking up on where you are with that overall?

Brian


Hi Jon,

There isn't really a quick answer to your question(s), but you're right...in most case you wouldn't need both a PC5 with Autotune, and the Woolich DIY ECU software. You may have read earlier on that I have both, but it's only because of the way I ordered things with the scheduling, and I ended up with both.

<snip>

Rem ;D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on April 09, 2014, 08:09:43 pm
This post reminds me- did you ever get the auto tune add- on gadget working on the C-14? The one from Woolich? As I remember, the wiring harness was for a ZX 14 and there was some question as to whether or not it would work on a C-14.... if I remember correctly? And of course, the C-14 needs a bung welded in the exhaust and an O2 sensor no matter what system is used to close the loop. I guess I am just checking up on where you are with that overall?

Brian

Yes and no...lol. What I did get working was the On-Bike harness. The ZX14R uses the same harness, but wired to different pins on the FI ECU. All this allows me to do at this point and time is it gives me the ability to flash my FI ECU without removing it from the bike. All I have to do is take the seat off.
The Woolich Racing kit for the C14 has only a bench-harness as standard equipment, and you have to have an external 12vdc supply for power.

I am going to be using the Woolich LBP, which is their version of Autotune. I should have an update for you in a couple weeks. It may take a little bit to get it sorted out, but it is a really slick system in how it works.

The biggest benefit for me personally will be in tuning the FI ECU after I get the ZX14 TB's installed (later). I see the guys have been having some low throttle response issues, and off-idle abruptness, which I'm hoping I can fine tune in my own ECU.

I will also have a custom tuned map or two that I can share with LSGiant and whoever else have their own kit that might want to try it. It's just going to take me a little time to get it all done.

Cheers,
Cory

Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Jon on April 09, 2014, 08:21:46 pm
Rem,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Based on what I knew about the systems this is what I thought would be the case.
I just bought an 08 connie about a month ago and am starting to make it my own. My original plan was to do a pcv w/ auto tune over the next winter season, but saw the posts about the secondary butterfly's and figured this would be a good thing to do as well!  >:D  So I am trying to figure out what path I should take. When I have time, I do like doing a lot of mod's myself, so having the ability to manage the ECU would be nice. On the other side, I am pretty much on the bike every free second so that means I dont have a lot of free time :).

So I guess my question is, which path would you suggest? I do like to tinker, but don't boat loads of time to do all the trial and error myself....  >:(

Thanks,

Jon
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on April 09, 2014, 08:46:38 pm

So I guess my question is, which path would you suggest? I do like to tinker, but don't boat have loads of time to do all the trial and error myself.

Thanks,

Jon

If you like to tinker with stuff yourself, I suggest getting a PC5....and you don't really even need the Autotune as there are already some great maps around for the C14. The Autotune is a nice addition/option, but depending on what you're doing and what your goal is, you may not need it. To get the most out of a PC5, you'll have to remove the secondary butterfly plates, so there is at least a little bit of wrench work involved. Lots and lots of info on that here;).

The Woolich DIY ECU kit is great too, but there currently are no pre-made maps available...you would have to have the bike tuned, by somebody that works with ECU tuning, and has a dyno, etc.

There is also the Guhl Motors option. They can flash your ECU for you, with a performance fuel map and butterflies that open much earlier. You can't tinker with it yourself, but it is a good option.

Hope that helps,
Rem ;D
 
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: gPink on April 09, 2014, 09:30:16 pm
Rem, are you pulling the flies from the zx tb's?
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on April 09, 2014, 09:33:11 pm
Rem, are you pulling the flies from the zx tb's?

Well, I already have, yes...because I've had them for a while and they're on the bench. It was easy. However, I may re-install the flies before I install the ZX TB's....it really kind of depends on where I am with everything by the time I'm ready to install, and when my full system finally arrives.

Rem ;D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LakeTrax on April 10, 2014, 01:25:49 am
You're still waiting on the exhaust??? :-\  >:( :(
I thought you ordered that thing months ago... :017:

What's lead-time on an Area-P system supposed to be? Seems too long-
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: JS_racer on April 10, 2014, 09:35:49 am

So I guess my question is, which path would you suggest? I do like to tinker, but don't boat have loads of time to do all the trial and error myself.

Thanks,

Jon

.....
There is also the Guhl Motors option. They can flash your ECU for you, with a performance fuel map and butterflies that open much earlier. You can't tinker with it yourself, but it is a good option.

Hope that helps,
Rem ;D

I went this route and am very pleased with the results.  :beerchug:
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on April 10, 2014, 10:15:46 am
You're still waiting on the exhaust???

Yup...sure am...lol.

I thought you ordered that thing months ago...

Yup...sure did, ordered and paid for on October 14th 2013 to be exact...lol.

What's lead-time on an Area-P system supposed to be? Seems too long-

I think 'normal' delivery was usually 1-3 months, depending on when you placed your order. I know of at least one member on here that ordered his after me, and received it in 4-6 weeks. Last update I got was that the delivery was "trending towards the end of April"...so I'll have to follow up again in a couple weeks.

The issue apparently is that Area-P moved the C14 full exhaust system from R&D Fabrication into production batch runs, and the transition has been delayed...several times now.

Oh well...I'm a patient guy...and there's nothing else I want, so I'll wait. I waited 9 months for a replacement Akrapovic muffler one time...but I was starting to get impatient by the end of it...lol.

Cheers,
Cory
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Turbo on April 11, 2014, 11:37:33 am
I just used the woolich software yesterday to tune my 2012 ZX1OR. It works good, but can be complicated, and confusing. It is definitly more difficult and time consuming than tuning with a power commander. Ultimately you can do more, but it could easily overwhelm, and confuse people. One thing that is strange is how Kawasaki does the ram air compensation. I always though they would use the intake air pressure sensor to compensate for the change in air pressure from the ram air, but they actually just do it my MPH. You can clearly see it on the dyno. You run the bike in 4th and it shows a certain mixture, then 5th gear shows richer, and then 6th gear even richer. For the person trying to tune it themselves at home by seat of the pants, I could see them really getting lost, and chasing their tail. You would really need to get their log box pro, so you could datalog and then make your changes. I ended up with 192.66 HP at 13,400 and it held to 190 at 14,000. We also weighed the bike and it weighed 390 LBS with a half tank of fuel. It should be a fun cruiser. Mike.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on April 11, 2014, 11:45:21 am
You run the bike in 4th and it shows a certain mixture, then 5th gear shows richer, and then 6th gear even richer. For the person trying to tune it themselves at home by seat of the pants, I could see them really getting lost, and chasing their tail. You would really need to get their log box pro, so you could datalog and then make your changes.

Hey Mike,

I assume that you were monitoring the AFR on the dyno? It was getting richer each time because you were on the dyno and not utilizing the ram air? Did you end up leaving the STP's installed?

I will have the Log Box Pro installed shortly on my C14 and will be using it to tune my ZX14 TB's, Area-P full system, etc.

I'll keep you posted on how it turns out on the dyno;).

Cheers,
Cory
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Turbo on April 11, 2014, 08:26:23 pm
Cory; Yes we were monitoring the AFR. What do you mean by STP's? It gets complicated because a lot of the maps are inter connected, so you change one thing, and it will also affect something else. The Concours should be easier, because it only has 4 injectors where the ZX10R has 4 primary, and 4 secondary. The log box pro will be the only way to tune the bike precisely for real world riding conditions. Mike.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on April 11, 2014, 09:05:07 pm
Cory; Yes we were monitoring the AFR. What do you mean by STP's? It gets complicated because a lot of the maps are inter connected, so you change one thing, and it will also affect something else. The Concours should be easier, because it only has 4 injectors where the ZX10R has 4 primary, and 4 secondary. The log box pro will be the only way to tune the bike precisely for real world riding conditions. Mike.

Hey Mike,

I realized after the fact that it was probably a dumb question...I first thought you noticed that the fuel maps were richer in the higher gears, but as you said...if you were watching it in real time with a wbO2 sensor, that's a different story.

STP - Secondary Throttle Plates (Flies). They're called STP's in the Woolich software.

I forgot about the 2x4 injectors on the ZX10R...I was thinking of the older ZX10R's...I thought they had the same throttlebody assemblies as the ZX14?

I've been playing around with the Woolich software and my C14 ECU (I have 2) for a while now, but you are bang on with your comments...you could get confused very quickly, and it's not for everybody. I also have a Denso ECU from a Kawi ZX6R/636 that I'm going to work on for a friend's track bike. I'll let you know how goes with the Log Box Pro...it may take a little bit to get it all set up and working, but it will be really slick for tuning the bike.

It's funny, after all this....I'm going to look at an old ZX7R tomorrow for a potential track project. No EFI there;).

Cheers,
Cory
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Turbo on April 12, 2014, 11:29:51 am
Cory; The fuel maps are the same for the 6 gears. What is different is that the ram air compensation gets more as the speed increases. That's why the fueling gets richer in the higher gears. It actually makes it a little quicker to see if a bike wants a richer mixture or not because you can do a run in 4TH gear, and then do it in 6th, and if it makes more power you know it likes it richer because the 6th gear pull will be richer due to the ram air compensation. The Woolich is a great tool, and will only get better with time, but for the average person who thinks they are going to make changes and then ride the bike and then make changes again, they will just get lost very quickly. The log box pro would be the only way you could do it that way. Mike.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: LSGiant on May 24, 2014, 12:25:38 am
Just wondering if anybody has got a around to loading some maps to their C14. I have not and I just installed a different exhaust. I have been to busy riding but might get a little break to tinker.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on May 26, 2014, 10:29:02 am
Just wondering if anybody has got a around to loading some maps to their C14. I have not and I just installed a different exhaust. I have been to busy riding but might get a little break to tinker.

I've done very little. I've loaded a BIN File on another C14 besides my own, but I haven't done much else. My C14 has been parked for a few weeks. I've just been busy with a bunch of other stuff.

My new C14 exhaust is supposed to be shipping this week, so once that arrives I will be digging into the ECU stuff again. I've just been swamped lately with bike stuff and some home renos. Just starting to get caught up on everything, and I have some goodies arriving soon, so I should be getting back at it soon.

Rem ;D
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on June 22, 2014, 11:45:04 pm
Ok, bit of an update here.

My Area-P full exhaust system showed up a week or so ago....three days short of the seven month anniversary of me ordering and paying for it...lol. They say patience is a virtue, right?
Anyway, I've been too busy to do anything with my C14 lately, but I finally dug back into it last night and today.

Full exhaust system installed, and BMC air filter. Then removed all of the Power Commander parts...PC5, Autotune, and LCD screen. Then, installed the Woolich Log Box Pro, and tuned up my FI ECU.

The LBP was a snap to install...between it and the Zeitronix WB02 kit, I don't think I was 45 minutes. Of course I was able to re-use the switched power leads for the PC Autotune, so that saved some time.

It took a little fiddlin' around to get through the software, communication issues, and configuration settings, but I finally got it sorted out in the end. The default minimum engine temp setting for tuning was set at 80 degrees C, and once I realized that my engine temp wasn't hitting 80, I found out why I wasn't logging any data. :o

Anyway, I did two data logging runs and various speeds and throttle positions, with a few hard pulls through the gears to 10k or so. After I loaded the files from the second autotune, my ECU TPS fuel mapping is within' 1-2 percent of my target AFR at almost all settings with the exception of a few cells. I will do a lot more fine tuning, but so far, it's really slick.

The great thing is how precise and clean everything is to work with. The Log Box Pro logs data from the IAP map and the TPS maps, so when you apply the changes, it creates nice smooth maps, and the transition from the IAP map to the TPS map is seamless...no throttle snatch that I could notice.

On top of that, I bumped the rev limiter up to 10,500 RPM, and disabled the top speed limiter as well....and it works, I went well over 160 MPH on one of my test runs, and not a hiccup;).

Anyway, I have a lot more work and tuning to do, so I'll keep you guys posted. As it stands, she's working fantastic, and the power delivery is delicious. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Cheers,
Rem
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Jon on August 28, 2014, 05:15:27 pm
Thanks for being the pioneer here Rem! Now I can bennifit from all your hard work!  >:D
Taking the family on an end of summer vacation for Labor day, so I will have plenty of time to start playing with this while they are off with their friends.
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Rembrant on August 28, 2014, 05:20:56 pm
Thanks for being the pioneer here Rem! Now I can bennifit from all your hard work!  >:D
Taking the family on an end of summer vacation for Labor day, so I will have plenty of time to start playing with this while they are off with their friends.

Great stuff! Glad to hear that you're getting it all sorted out and having fun with it.

It's a really neat system for the DIY types. I've learned a lot and had a lot of fun with my set-up.

Keep us posted how it goes Jon,

Rem :great:
Title: Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
Post by: Jon on September 09, 2014, 01:13:52 pm
Well after some tweaking to the STP, TPS and IAP maps I can say that my highly tuned butt dyno felt a difference.   :motonoises:  :))
The bottom end is a TON better. No more sluggish starts and then a surge of power when you hit the mid RPM range. Just smooth power from the get go. Under WOT shifting from 1st to 2nd and then 2nd to 3rd, I could feel the front end picking up just a little bit before. Now it comes up a bit more. Not a ton where I am doing wheelie's down the freeway, but enough that I can tell since shafties can't wheelie, right Rev??  ;)

Deceleration is a lot better now. Before it was really jerky, pushing me forward on the handle bars, now it is just smooth and easy.

I am still getting a backfire here and there when down shifting on deceleration. I'll have to see if that is something I can work out.  ???

Hopefully in the next year I'll be picking up some ZX14 TB's to throw in.  >:D

Jon