Author Topic: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing  (Read 21339 times)

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Offline JS_racer

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2014, 12:27:01 am »
Thanks,  makes sense.   :beerchug: 

Offline Cold Streak

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2014, 05:59:02 pm »

Quote
Joel, this WRT DIY kit is just the software for communicating with, and programming, the Concours-14 ECU. It does not come with any kind of pre-made performance 'tune' or map. You are responsible for that yourself, either by dyno tuning the bike, or tuning it with a wide-band O2 sensor, etc.

That's not what I thought when I ordered the product.   ::)  The way he worded it I thought they already had maps available for different configurations.  Might have thought twice about it in that case.  Oh well, time to experiment.


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Offline Jeff Kerkow

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2014, 07:11:09 pm »
Finished modifying my maps for the STPs this afternoon. It took a little while to get used to the software and I found it was easier for me to copy them to excel and then copy them back.  I took a little time evaluating the maps as to where they started to get engage the STPs. I then moved those cells up in the map and copied the wide open settings to the bottom of the map.  It looks nice on the graph. I won't be able to test for at least a couple of months. As mentioned by others earlier without the O2 sensor and a Dyno it will just be a seat of the pants thing, but compared to just removing them I would think this would be better.

I plan to do the actual download at our NC tech session in March. Hopefully it will be warm enough to ride. :)
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Offline BDF

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2014, 07:22:58 pm »
Can the entire secondary throttle position map, all cells at all speeds, be set to 'open'? You know, so they are open fully whenever the ign. key is turned on?  ;)

Brian

Finished modifying my maps for the STPs this afternoon. It took a little while to get used to the software and I found it was easier for me to copy them to excel and then copy them back.  I took a little time evaluating the maps as to where they started to get engage the STPs. I then moved those cells up in the map and copied the wide open settings to the bottom of the map.  It looks nice on the graph. I won't be able to test for at least a couple of months. As mentioned by others earlier without the O2 sensor and a Dyno it will just be a seat of the pants thing, but compared to just removing them I would think this would be better.

I plan to do the actual download at our NC tech session in March. Hopefully it will be warm enough to ride. :)
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2014, 07:32:05 pm »
Can the entire secondary throttle position map, all cells at all speeds, be set to 'open'? You know, so they are open fully whenever the ign. key is turned on?  ;)

Yes. The graph starts at 600 RPM on one axis, and 1.2% TPS on the other. Each cell is 0-100%. You could copy and paste them all to 100%, and they'd all be wide open.
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Offline nando

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2014, 07:35:42 pm »
At a more fundamental level: Does opening the butterflies (or removing them) lowers your mpg average?
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2014, 07:50:08 pm »
I plan to do the actual download at our NC tech session in March. Hopefully it will be warm enough to ride. :)

Hey LSGiant,

Just a suggestion, but make sure you try the read/write to the ECU prior to your tech session. You'll be able to read the ECU no problem, but you may not be able to write to it right away....depending on what year your bike is. If it is a 2010, you may be ok, but if it is 2011 or newer, you will likely have to send the stock BIN file to Woolich to have it defined before you can write to the ECU. It's no biggie, but there may be a 24 hour (or more) delay between when you first read the ECU to when you can actually write to it.

If you've already gone through all of this, then never mind...you're already set-up.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 08:50:26 pm by Rembrant »
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2014, 07:53:17 pm »
Can the entire secondary throttle position map, all cells at all speeds, be set to 'open'? You know, so they are open fully whenever the ign. key is turned on?

Brian,

I have attached a screen shot of what a stock STP map looks like. It's easy to modify...if you can use Excel...well, you're on your way;).

Now...if I could figure out how to copy the whole picture after I save it to Paint....lol, you'd see the rest of it. ;D

« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 07:58:49 pm by Rembrant »
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Offline Jeff Kerkow

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2014, 09:31:26 pm »
I plan to do the actual download at our NC tech session in March. Hopefully it will be warm enough to ride. :)

Hey LSGiant,

Just a suggestion, but make sure you try the read/write to the ECU prior to your tech session. You'll be able to read the ECU no problem, but you may not be able to write to it right away....depending on what year your bike is. If it is a 2010, you may be ok, but if it is 2011 or newer, you will likely have to send the stock BIN file to Woolich to have it defined before you can write to the ECU. It's no biggie, but there may be a 24 hour (or more) delay between when you first read the ECU to when you can actually write to it.

If you've already gone through all of this, then never mind...you're already set-up.

Thanks, I was hoping to give it a try before the session but now I will make it a priority. Hopefully it will get a little warmer it takes a lot of $$ and time to get the garage to tolerable when it is so fricking cold.
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Offline BDF

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2014, 09:36:34 pm »
Excellent (he says while tenting his fingers)- thanks for posting that.

It also confirms, or almost confirms because I cannot quite see those cells, that the 'flies are fully open at 7K RPM, which has long been suspected and believed but not proven up until now, at least to my knowledge.

I wonder if those percentage points are the actual opening or just the percentage of rotation? For example, if 50% means that the secondaries have rotated 1/2 way to full open, then the effective throttling of the engine would be far, far less than 1/2 (meaning the 'flies would be flowing a LOT more air than 1/2 of the air they are capable of flowing). I suspect that it is an indication of the rotation due to the very non- linear nature of the throttle opening map range on the top of the chart.

Thanks Cory, great info.!

Brian

Brian,

I have attached a screen shot of what a stock STP map looks like. It's easy to modify...if you can use Excel...well, you're on your way;).

Now...if I could figure out how to copy the whole picture after I save it to Paint....lol, you'd see the rest of it. ;D
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2014, 09:43:32 pm »
Excellent (he says while tenting his fingers)- thanks for posting that.

It also confirms, or almost confirms because I cannot quite see those cells, that the 'flies are fully open at 7K RPM, which has long been suspected and believed but not proven up until now, at least to my knowledge.

What is it that you cannot see?...Because the image is cut off at the bottom?
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Offline BDF

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2014, 09:56:15 pm »
Yes. If I am reading the graph correctly, throttle opening is across the top (X axis) with engine speed on the left (and increasing downward but that is another discussion) (Y axis). The last RPM I can see is 6,500 RPM and at 100% throttle (manual), the secondaries are open 93.9%. So pretty shortly after 6.5K RPM they must be open all the way.

Brian


What is it that you cannot see?...Because the image is cut off at the bottom?
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2014, 10:09:36 pm »
Yes. If I am reading the graph correctly, throttle opening is across the top (X axis) with engine speed on the left (and increasing downward but that is another discussion) (Y axis). The last RPM I can see is 6,500 RPM and at 100% throttle (manual), the secondaries are open 93.9%. So pretty shortly after 6.5K RPM they must be open all the way.

Brian

Ok, yes. The STP's are 100% open at 8000 RPM @ 100% TP (They are 99% open @ 7500 RPM). Keep in mind, this is the Neutral STP map...it is dialed back just a little. The gear maps are a bit more aggressive...and they do open a little bit earlier.

As to the STP percentages...I would assume the percentage is 0-100% for the 0-90 degrees of rotation. I suppose it could be the flow, but that never even occurred to me.

If you're familiar with PC5 maps, you'll notice that the stock ECU mapping has almost double the increments in throttle position, and the RPM increments are smaller as well. This is why it's a bit tricky to convert the PC5 mapping....but not impossible. You just have to interpolate the numbers and blend them in. I have an Excel file for this now...just need some good weather to try it;). I may go as far as to try the Log Box Pro later...we'll see.

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Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2014, 10:34:51 pm »
Can the entire secondary throttle position map, all cells at all speeds, be set to 'open'? You know, so they are open fully whenever the ign. key is turned on?  ;)

Yes. The graph starts at 600 RPM on one axis, and 1.2% TPS on the other. Each cell is 0-100%. You could copy and paste them all to 100%, and they'd all be wide open.
That's what I've wondered too Brian...

I really hope to get my hands on this WRT set-up sometime this year.
To me, it would be worth a try(maybe Rembrandt will do it first?)... to set the 'flies open 100% of the time, then map the fueling accordingly for whatever your bike's modifications require.
In essence, it would be the same thing as removing the 'flies all together, but should still allow for the TC system to operate as stock.
This would TRULY be the best of both worlds-

Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2014, 10:45:01 pm »
To me, it would be worth a try(maybe Rembrandt will do it first?)... to set the 'flies open 100% of the time, then map the fueling accordingly for whatever your bike's modifications require.

I have a few things I'm going to try...but not until April when the roads clear up...maybe sooner...we'll see what Mother Nature has to say. ;D

I should have a couple tuned ECU maps that others could try by late spring.
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Offline BDF

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2014, 12:58:06 am »
Yeah, well that is the really obvious thing, right?  Just tell the ECU to hold them open and be done with it....

There may be one problem in the way though. The secondaries system on the C-14 has another use entirely; they function as the fast- idle cam for cold weather starting. There is a cam lobe on the secondary throttle rod, and there is a cam follower that is attached to the main throttle; when the secondaries are in a very specific range of positions, they also hold the main throttle open. Just an absolutely free guess but I think it will still work because the 'high idle' function of the ECU would have no reason to be coupled to the secondaries 'flies table and in fact, override it, at least it seems like it should. I mean, who cares where the secondary butterflies are when the engine is started? And if they have to be opened to, say, 19% to affect a high idle, it would not make any difference as long as the bikes' speed was zero (idling).

And there is the other problem; I do not remember where the secondaries are when they are being used to activate the high idle but if it is well into the open range, setting them to 100% open could cause a sudden and dangerous high idle. :-(  What I would suggest Cory would be to take a look at the linkage on the left side of the TB's and see where the high idle cam is on the secondaries- as long as it is operational well below 100%, it should be perfectly safe to try fully opening the 'flies all the time. But again, I would seriously check on that first....

Brian

To me, it would be worth a try(maybe Rembrandt will do it first?)... to set the 'flies open 100% of the time, then map the fueling accordingly for whatever your bike's modifications require.

I have a few things I'm going to try...but not until April when the roads clear up...maybe sooner...we'll see what Mother Nature has to say. ;D

I should have a couple tuned ECU maps that others could try by late spring.
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2014, 01:19:50 am »
What I would suggest Cory would be to take a look at the linkage on the left side of the TB's and see where the high idle cam is on the secondaries- as long as it is operational well below 100%, it should be perfectly safe to try fully opening the 'flies all the time. But again, I would seriously check on that first....

Do you mean at what point the STP high idle cam hits the throttle linkage? Approximately 45 degrees...or 50%.

If I'm understanding your question right...
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Offline Jeff Kerkow

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2014, 01:35:04 am »
This is going to be a trial and error process for a bit. I chose to ramp the plates open. I just have it happening much earlier than stock. I do not mind if it really doesn't start to pull until a little ways off of idle.
It looks like a I can buy a wide band O2 sensor and recorder for 170 bucks or so. This looks really fun but the riding season it so short here that if it works well enough I will wait for Rembrandt to do all the hard work. Hopefully we will meet somewhere so I can at least buy him a beverage.
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Offline Bruiser

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2014, 01:57:40 am »
I'm probably gonna be booed, but I gotta ask. This beast is so frigging fast, and decent on fuel, why would anyone want to make it faster, or am I missing something?   Does reflashing, or altering the flies make it that much better?  Just asking.    :-[
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Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2014, 03:33:07 am »
Yeah, well that is the really obvious thing, right?  Just tell the ECU to hold them open and be done with it....

There may be one problem in the way though. The secondaries system on the C-14 has another use entirely; they function as the fast- idle cam for cold weather starting. There is a cam lobe on the secondary throttle rod, and there is a cam follower that is attached to the main throttle; when the secondaries are in a very specific range of positions, they also hold the main throttle open. Just an absolutely free guess but I think it will still work because the 'high idle' function of the ECU would have no reason to be coupled to the secondaries 'flies table and in fact, override it, at least it seems like it should. I mean, who cares where the secondary butterflies are when the engine is started? And if they have to be opened to, say, 19% to affect a high idle, it would not make any difference as long as the bikes' speed was zero (idling).

And there is the other problem; I do not remember where the secondaries are when they are being used to activate the high idle but if it is well into the open range, setting them to 100% open could cause a sudden and dangerous high idle. :-(  What I would suggest Cory would be to take a look at the linkage on the left side of the TB's and see where the high idle cam is on the secondaries- as long as it is operational well below 100%, it should be perfectly safe to try fully opening the 'flies all the time. But again, I would seriously check on that first....

Brian
If I do in fact get the WRT set-up, I don't really think that I will set the 'flies to 100% open all of the time. I would however definitely have them opening much sooner/quicker than stock-
My above comment was more of a hypothetical...
I understand what your talking about Brian(and it sounds like we are in agreement). I still feel like it could be done without any issues if the fueling map is also correctly adjusted. I have a feeling that the ecu's high idle map(based on air/engine temp. info received by the ecu?) would indeed override whatever maps are "WRT adjusted" until proper operating temperatures are achieved. The ecu would then default back to whatever your custom maps are. Just like the TC system... once the ecu senses certain parameters, the fuel/butterfly/ignition maps are "overridden".
If for some reason the high-idle actually is affected by having the 'flies set to 100% all of the time, couldn't you work around that by leaving the butterfly map stock up to around say 1800-2000rpm and then set the rest of the map to 100%? Or even easier, just leave all of the "zero" cells alone and change all other cells to 100.
Just brain-storming here- :017:
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 03:50:03 am by LakeTrax »

Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2014, 10:46:55 am »
This looks really fun but the riding season it so short here that if it works well enough I will wait for Rembrandt to do all the hard work. Hopefully we will meet somewhere so I can at least buy him a beverage.

Back in 2005-2006, I spent a little bit of time in your area...passed right through your town many times. I was helping set up some new equipment at a plant in Mankato. It was during one of those trips that I got to experience driving a full size vehicle (SUV) on a lake...lol. We went out to see some guys in an ice fishing shack. The people in that area were unusually friendly...we had a great time.

We also passed through on I-90 back in 2011 returning on a bike trip to the west coast....and my wife was amazed...lol. Every ten minutes she'd say: "But...I...I've just never seen so much corn"...ha!

Ok, sorry to get so far off-topic there...lol.

My riding season would be a little longer than yours...but I still consider it to be 'too short'...lol. We get coastal New England weather where I live....less cold, and more 'wet slop'. In any case, I'll be out riding in April....and sometimes late March if the weather and roads allow. In any case, the cold weather in the spring will be perfect for some road-testing...it'll still be too cold to go too far, but I can at least get out for some Autotune O2 runs to see how everything is working.

At some point and time, we will develop some ECU maps that can be shared and tried by other people. It's really no different from what we've already been doing with Power Commander maps for the last decade, except now we also have the ability to modify the STP maps, which is a neat feature. The Woolich Racing 'MapShare' database will get some maps added to it at some point...by us, or others, and hopefully there will be some different versions to cover different C-14 modifications...slip-on exhaust, full system, etc, etc.

Cory ;D
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2014, 11:27:57 am »
If I do in fact get the WRT set-up, I don't really think that I will set the 'flies to 100% open all of the time. I would however definitely have them opening much sooner/quicker than stock-
My above comment was more of a hypothetical...
I understand what your talking about Brian(and it sounds like we are in agreement). I still feel like it could be done without any issues if the fueling map is also correctly adjusted. I have a feeling that the ecu's high idle map(based on air/engine temp. info received by the ecu?) would indeed override whatever maps are "WRT adjusted" until proper operating temperatures are achieved. The ecu would then default back to whatever your custom maps are. Just like the TC system... once the ecu senses certain parameters, the fuel/butterfly/ignition maps are "overridden".
If for some reason the high-idle actually is affected by having the 'flies set to 100% all of the time, couldn't you work around that by leaving the butterfly map stock up to around say 1800-2000rpm and then set the rest of the map to 100%? Or even easier, just leave all of the "zero" cells alone and change all other cells to 100.
Just brain-storming here- :017:

I think you have the right idea by not wanting to open the STP's to 100% during idle. I'll test it sometime this spring, once the engine is already warmed up to operating temp. I suspect opening them 100% from the get-go will result in a high idle...or at best an irregular idle.
If you really wanted to create a map to mimic complete removal of the secondary flies, I think it would be best to not open them more than, lets say 40-45% until approximately 1500 RPM @ 12-15% TPS. I think opening them to 100% prior to these points may cause some problems.

First of all, since the STP's do control the high idle mechanically, the ECU can't exactly 'override' this in the mapping (at least I don't think so). The only thing the ECU will do is add more fuel to compensate for the added air flow....resulting in a high idle.

I guess it really depends on whether or not the ECU overrides the STP map during cold starts. During a cold start, the ECU is going to open the STP's to 100%, and then close them as the engine warms up and reaches it's warm set-point. I'd be willing to bet that once the engine reaches normal operating temp that the ECU reverts to the stock STP map. If this is what the ECU is doing....then having the STP's set to 100% in all cells will more than likely result in a high (cold) idle, even when the engine is up to normal temp.

I can test this later...it will be very easy to see what happens.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 11:34:25 am by Rembrant »
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Offline gPink

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2014, 11:40:04 am »
FWIW, the flies are out on my '08. Idle is set at 1100 rpm. Cold start (40F +) idle raises to 1500-1600, drops back down to 1100 in three to five minutes.

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2014, 11:51:43 am »
FWIW, the flies are out on my '08. Idle is set at 1100 rpm. Cold start (40F +) idle raises to 1500-1600, drops back down to 1100 in three to five minutes.

Yup...that sounds about right. I had the flies out on my 08 C14 as well. It's actually the secondary flies motor/shaft that is opening the throttle to raise the RPM for the high idle. In order to do this, the secondary flies shaft would have to be either at 100% open, or very close to it. Once the normal engine run temp is reached, the secondary flies shaft rotates (closes) and drops back to 0% (closed), which closes the throttle at the same time.
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Offline BDF

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Re: Woolrich DIY ECU Flashing
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2014, 12:10:25 pm »
Well, per your other post, if the H.S. idle cams are engaged in the 45 degree range then there is absolutely no problem and that won't be a consideration.

As to how much to open them and how quickly, I don't think the secondaries do anything as far as I can see because once they are gone, there is no loss of performance, quality of idle or anything else I can detect. Of course there may be some use on a bike that has T/C but I have no experience with that as my C-14 does not have it.

Anyway, I think this is going to be a very interesting journey and should have some great rewards. Looking forward to hearing about how it all works once the weather will cooperate a bit more.

Brian

If I do in fact get the WRT set-up, I don't really think that I will set the 'flies to 100% open all of the time. I would however definitely have them opening much sooner/quicker than stock-
My above comment was more of a hypothetical...
I understand what your talking about Brian(and it sounds like we are in agreement). I still feel like it could be done without any issues if the fueling map is also correctly adjusted. I have a feeling that the ecu's high idle map(based on air/engine temp. info received by the ecu?) would indeed override whatever maps are "WRT adjusted" until proper operating temperatures are achieved. The ecu would then default back to whatever your custom maps are. Just like the TC system... once the ecu senses certain parameters, the fuel/butterfly/ignition maps are "overridden".
If for some reason the high-idle actually is affected by having the 'flies set to 100% all of the time, couldn't you work around that by leaving the butterfly map stock up to around say 1800-2000rpm and then set the rest of the map to 100%? Or even easier, just leave all of the "zero" cells alone and change all other cells to 100.
Just brain-storming here- :017:
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