Author Topic: Acceptable subjects  (Read 5618 times)

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Offline norm-9688

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2011, 11:42:03 am »
Justify censorship in any way you see fit Fred but it is still censorship.

Frankly, I am surprised and a little disappointed that the rest of the COG operatives are standing quietly by and allowing one person to decide what may or may not be discussed. Gentlemen, your silence speaks volumes.


 Brian,
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Offline norm-9688

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2011, 11:44:11 am »
I will not and cannot speak for 'them all' but I can speak for myself.

Converting the idea of censorship into a blanket idea to permit any and all behavior was not suggested by anyone before you mentioned it. And I do not believe you can use that logic to disguise censorship on the grounds that it is 'best for us'. We do not have to have an all or nothing approach; moderation and censorship are not even similar.

I like moderated forums because someone is around to corral things when they inevitably get out of hand. Within the normal range of human response, I think the moderators here and on the other Concours site do a great job overall.

But what I addressed by starting this thread was not moderation, it was censorship. A thread was deleted simply because a person with the power to censor did not like the subject matter. I personally abhor threads where people suggest eliminating the shields on headlight lamps and always strenuously state my opinion but I would never delete nor suggest such a thread be deleted. Hopefully logic and reason will carry the day but withholding subject matter in the 'best interest' of the multitudes smacks of imperialism.

Speaking out on a subject is a fine thing. Strenuous objection is also a fine thing. Even perhaps irrational ranting (occasionally) is OK if one feels strongly about something. And finally, locking a thread once the signal to noise ratio has passed a reasonable point is fine as well but deleting a civil, rational thread about a subject because someone does not like that subject is not acceptable in a society which prides itself on free speech. My suggestion would be to write a paragraph or two stating why you think car tires should not be used on motorcycles, insert that paragraph(s) into any such thread, and trust that your intelligence and ability to articulate the thought will be more persuasive than trying to remove such thoughts from a public (or at least available and open to the public) forum.

There are nine very intelligent and learned people in Washington DC who do not have the ability to regulate what I may or may not read, and I doubt that many individuals are better than that group; I would rather not have any individual dictate to me what I may or may not read, write or discuss.

With all due respect,
Brian




So are y'all telling me that you think anything should go on this forum? Is that what you really want. Think carefully before you respond.


 Well said Brian !!   +1

Offline WillyP

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2011, 11:54:06 am »
So are y'all telling me that you think anything should go on this forum? Is that what you really want. Think carefully before you respond.

Every forum needs rules, and guidelines. Under what rule or guideline is a car tire on a bike thread not allowed? Lock or delete threads that violate rules or guidelines, sure. But to just arbitrarily say, no more about car tires on a bike, doesn't make sense. Can you explain why you have taken this stance?
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2011, 11:57:37 am »
Here's an idea. Let's manage this forum by getting all the members to vote on every topic that comes up, and instead of having someone oversee it, we'll do it by general consensus of whichever way the wind is blowing on any given day. It'll be lots of fun and very productive, we can all sit around and argue about every single thing that gets posted on here for endless hours on end, and we can vote on whether or not we all agree with each and every post. This way absolutely no one will be in control of anything on here and nothing will ever get agreed upon. I hear that's a real good way to manage things, and that is probably why so many businesses out there have each and every employee vote on every issue that comes up, and no one overseas management of the company or ever makes any decisions.
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Offline norm-9688

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2011, 12:17:22 pm »
So are y'all telling me that you think anything should go on this forum? Is that what you really want. Think carefully before you respond.

Every forum needs rules, and guidelines. Under what rule or guideline is a car tire on a bike thread not allowed? Lock or delete threads that violate rules or guidelines, sure. But to just arbitrarily say, no more about car tires on a bike, doesn't make sense. Can you explain why you have taken this stance?


 I agree, there is no place in the rules/guidelines that state car tires on bikes are not allowed, defend your stance on why you think its a bad idea, which I tend to agree with, but locking or deleting the topic  just based on its subject matter does not fly with me.

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2011, 12:27:27 pm »
defend your stance on why you think its a bad idea,

Oh, I dunno, maybe because it could get somebody killed? Do you really think it is responsible to allow folks to post on here about running car tires on a high performance motorcycle and encouraging others to do so?
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Offline norm-9688

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2011, 12:34:35 pm »
defend your stance on why you think its a bad idea,

Oh, I dunno, maybe because it could get somebody killed? Do you really think it is responsible to allow folks to post on here about running car tires on a high performance motorcycle and encouraging others to do so?

 I may not think that installing a turbo or removing the secondary flies and adding a power commander to by-pass the speed limiter  is a good idea either but I would still allow people to talk about it and give MY opinion about how I felt about it. Just shutting down ALL discussion is not that way to go.

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2011, 12:45:24 pm »
I may not think that installing a turbo or removing the secondary flies and adding a power commander to by-pass the speed limiter  is a good idea either but I would still allow people to talk about it and give MY opinion about how I felt about it. Just shutting down ALL discussion is not that way to go.

This is the forum where C14 owners come to get advice on tires. I don't want to see car tire threads in here encouraging folks to put them on their bikes, because I believe it could result in someone getting hurt. End of story. This is where I draw the line. Someone has to be in charge to make decisions about what is appropriate and what isn't in this forum. At this moment in time, I am designated in that position.

If you'd like to find a new moderator and replace me, then please do.
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Offline BigJoeVA68

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2011, 12:52:08 pm »
I agree with the "moderate the behaviors, not the topics" side as long as the topics are within the scope of the forum/sub-forum. I personally don't see anything off-topic or against the written rules about car tires on a C-14, it isn't religion or politics, even if I find the idea a bit strange myself...

I would suggest rather than deleting the thread if it is objectionable to the moderator of this sub-forum, perhaps in the future move it to the "say anything but..." forum or another more general forum instead. I mean, "car tires on motorcycles" isn't limited to the C-14 anyway, so why limit the conversation by starting it in the C-14 specific forum, even if the OP was only interested in C-14 applications...

I would further suggest problems with moderation be kept in private messages, because as far as I can see the topic of moderation isn't covered by "Concours 14/ ZG1400 General Chat and Tech" thus making IT off-topic. Even if criticism is legitimate, the avenue for that criticism is also subject to criticism IMO, and in the case of moderation issues, IMO it should be kept private and out of general view. Infighting is generally not good for an organization, even if it is civil.

Any position of power will eventually result in questions of authority, even Fred's hypothetical CEO who has a board and shareholders to respond to. That doesn't mean it is a call for removal, lynching, burning at the stake, tar-and-feathering, or a change to a democracy. 

Thank you Fred for doing a thankless job. One call that some are questioning doesn't mean anything in the scope of all you do for us. Keep up the good work.  :beerchug:
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Offline Dave Scott

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2011, 01:14:09 pm »
If y'all don't mind, I'll submit my thoughts for consideration.  Certainly only opinions, like everyone else has.  ;)

If I could speak for Fred, from what I have read here (I hope you don't mind Fred, and please correct if I mis-state), Fred's concern appears to be for those that use our site, and the C14 technical section in particular, Fred wants to be sure that we, as a group, are not presenting ideas that could cause safety issues.  I suspect that Fred also has "concern" that this might in some way reflect what COG in general represents.  But please correct me, as I'm just trying to read between the lines and understand where folks are coming from.

I don't mind CT conversations in general, but do understand the need for being cautious so those from the outside don't get the wrong idea.

Having said that, Fred's concern appears to be with regard to this section of the forum, and I assume Capn Bob feels similarly as the other moderator.  However, I don't think anyone is suggesting a forum-wide ban on the subject as there is an active thread in the C10 section.  I might suggest that if this is a topic of interest to some, that you take it to another section, such as the "say anything here except that" section.

Fred or others, please let me know if I'm out of line with this.  I'm not trying to fan the flame, just to understand and offer some thoughts.

Offline Dalroo

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2011, 01:16:13 pm »
I'm a new guy to the C14, and a new guy to this forum, but I want to weigh in because I have found this to be one of the most useful sites available to learn about my new motorcycle. I bet there are tons of others who are in my same boat, looking for camaraderie of likebike owners, technical and farkling suggestions, and other relevant info.

I also hold a management position in my company, and chair a large charity event, and perhaps the most frustrating element of that, especially as a volunteer, is to donate/dedicate your time and effort to make good decisions, and then have those decisions questioned and debated ad nauseum.

Fred has volunteered to moderate this site, and I believe is doing a damn fine job. If as the moderator he feels there are topics that might be life threatening, or for that matter, develop into litigious situations, it is certainly his perogative to limit that exposure. If to save a few bucks a new rider were to take a suggestion to mount a car tire on a motorcycle and then die as a result I am guessing Fred, and all of us, would at a minimum lose a great deal of enthusiasm for what is our passion - motorcycling.

Not that it has ever occurred to my knowledge, but if someone were to create a topic on how to ride a wheelie on the interestate (or some other life threatening behavior) I would similarly expect the moderators to delete the thread. In an elective forum, this is not censorship, but moderating, and I expect nothing less.

Again, I'm a new guy so take it for what you will, but I am guessing Fred spends a GREAT deal of time doing this job, and I applaud the effort. I know I would never have the time, energy, or passion to do it any better.

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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2011, 01:31:58 pm »
+1 on BigJoes’s comments, especially the last sentence.  Fred is a keeper.
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Offline MrPepsi

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2011, 01:50:38 pm »
Not that it has ever occurred to my knowledge, but if someone were to create a topic on how to ride a wheelie on the interestate (or some other life threatening behavior) I would similarly expect the moderators to delete the thread. In an elective forum, this is not censorship, but moderating, and I expect nothing less.

I'm sorry I disagree again, that is still censorship. If someone doesn't post their ideas like this, we don't get a chance tell them how stupid it is. The thread most certainly should be allowed to run its course. Maybe I should start moderating, oh and by the way. Bar risers are unsafe in my opinion so I plan to delete any thread about bar risers.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2011, 04:00:48 pm »
I do believe this thread has run it's course and everyone has had ample time to "express their opinion", so being the communist nazi moderator that I am, I'm now going to lock it.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2011, 01:36:24 am »
The following message is from Ken Ford, the COG Executive Director.

If there is any fault here it is with the Board of Directors and myself.  We ask people to moderate the forum and then provide no guidance or policy pertaining to the content.  While I personally believe that car tires have no place on motorcycles, I do understand the censorship question.  To resolve the censorship question I have asked three members of the Board to serve as a committee to draft a policy so the Board can address the issue.  In the meantime please hang loose.  When the policy is decided on we will publish it for all to see and comment.

Ken Ford

Executive Director

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