Author Topic: Acceptable subjects  (Read 5973 times)

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Offline BDF

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Acceptable subjects
« on: November 01, 2011, 03:53:39 pm »
"Do not post car tire threads on this forum. They will be removed."
-Fred Harmon    1 November, 2011  4:51:33 AM

Thank you for that clarification Fred.

Brian
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Offline MrPepsi

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2011, 05:42:44 pm »
So now the site is sensoring topics?
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Offline Camper Dave

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2011, 06:05:46 pm »
So now the site is sensoring topics?
Absolutely!!

Personally, I trust the "Mods" to keep this place a fun, family friendly, club centric place.
If Fred feels that Car Tire threads don't have a place in the parts of the forum he Mods, then so be it. Anyone is welcome to contact him and appropriately voice their concerns. I'd much rather have this forum a place where problems (or potential problems) are dealt with before they get out of hand, then left to turn ugly.

JMHO...
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2011, 06:15:37 pm »
So now the site is sensoring topics?

Just this one.
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Offline WillyP

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2011, 07:06:58 pm »
I am not a fan of 'car tire on a bike' but if we censor topics based on... um, what is this based on? A feeling that car tires don't belong on a bike? That it 'might' not be safe? If so there are a whole host of other topics that should be censored... homemade brake caliper brackets, using cutting boards as mounting plates for trunks, overflow tubes for carbs, just to name a few...
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2011, 07:37:52 pm »
I am not a fan of 'car tire on a bike' but if we censor topics based on... um, what is this based on? A feeling that car tires don't belong on a bike? That it 'might' not be safe? If so there are a whole host of other topics that should be censored... homemade brake caliper brackets, using cutting boards as mounting plates for trunks, overflow tubes for carbs, just to name a few...

I gotta give Willy a big +1 on this one.   ???

I mean kipass threads I could understand, but...   oops! :-X
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Offline Camper Dave

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2011, 07:40:42 pm »
Come on Guys..

You know you've read about car tires on this forum before...
Here ya go... 10 pages on Car tires:
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,19098.0.html
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Offline MrPepsi

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2011, 07:45:15 pm »
I don't support sensoring car tire threads.
That sounds like an opinion running the forum.
I hate them too, but this should NOT happen.
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Offline WillyP

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2011, 10:05:44 pm »
Dave, are you suggesting we should have no car tire threads on the basis that we have had them before?
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Offline Cap'n Bob

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2011, 10:20:44 pm »
 Do we really want to go down this path? I'll leave my personal feelings on car tires out of this and just think about what this might mean. This would be kind of set a precedent that then could open the door to any subject that someone feels is just as deserving of being censored. Then what would be considered acceptable and not acceptable? I see this could open the door to controversy. (Obviously it already has)  Although the subject Has brought out some strong opinions in the past. So have plenty of other subjects.
 As long as the thread does not turn into major insults and remains (at least close to) a calm and mostly respectful. Then I do not see the harm in allowing the discussion to take place (as long as in the proper section). We may not agree with what others say. But others are also entitled to their opinions and thoughts. IMO to a certain degree, most anti/pro car tire argument could in some what be made for almost any modification on the Concours. So how much worse is a car tire thread than for example: lowering links, risers, changes to the factory fuel delivery system, adding any farkel that increases the center of gravity, or any other thread changing the motorcycle from it's designed state.
 I wouldn't go against Fred if he does implement this. But I personally would not do the deleting. I do not want our site to get the reputation for unnecessary censorship. Yes I'm sure some things may be too quickly removed or locked. For the moderators are all human and do not always read things the way they were meant. So stuff will happen. But I'm not so sure about forewarned censorship on a subject that may possibly not be against the forum rules. So again, are we sure we want to go down this road?   ???

Offline SteveJ.

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2011, 10:44:05 pm »
Yeah, if you want true ram air tuning, you better be willing to ram some air! (SiSF)
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2011, 10:49:00 pm »
So are y'all telling me that you think anything should go on this forum? Is that what you really want. Think carefully before you respond.
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Offline SteveJ.

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2011, 11:12:20 pm »
So are y'all telling me that you think anything should go on this forum? Is that what you really want. Think carefully before you respond.
So we get a choice of the something similar to the Arena on the old Concours.org forum or censorship?

From what I'm being led to believe, that thread did not get out of hand, nor did it violate any rules. It just got deleted because...help me out here.
Yeah, if you want true ram air tuning, you better be willing to ram some air! (SiSF)
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Offline Slybones

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2011, 12:11:54 am »
IMO of course.

Anything is not allowed. Yes there is Censorship. This is not the Arena. There are rules. Generally the rules to keeping the forum clean and family oriented. And its at the moderators descretion. If the moderator thinks you violated the rules, then they can delete, edit, fix as needed.

Having said that, I think the question here is not about allowing anything or not allowing anything, the question is does "car tires" or topics of a similar nature violate the rules. Is a thread about car tires demeaning, or should it be deleted because it is unfit for kids to read, etc.  If they are not, then they should not be censored. That is the question/comments being posed by members. Or at least how I interpret them.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 12:13:58 am by Slybones »
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Offline BDF

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2011, 12:19:46 am »
I will not and cannot speak for 'them all' but I can speak for myself.

Converting the idea of censorship into a blanket idea to permit any and all behavior was not suggested by anyone before you mentioned it. And I do not believe you can use that logic to disguise censorship on the grounds that it is 'best for us'. We do not have to have an all or nothing approach; moderation and censorship are not even similar.

I like moderated forums because someone is around to corral things when they inevitably get out of hand. Within the normal range of human response, I think the moderators here and on the other Concours site do a great job overall.

But what I addressed by starting this thread was not moderation, it was censorship. A thread was deleted simply because a person with the power to censor did not like the subject matter. I personally abhor threads where people suggest eliminating the shields on headlight lamps and always strenuously state my opinion but I would never delete nor suggest such a thread be deleted. Hopefully logic and reason will carry the day but withholding subject matter in the 'best interest' of the multitudes smacks of imperialism.

Speaking out on a subject is a fine thing. Strenuous objection is also a fine thing. Even perhaps irrational ranting (occasionally) is OK if one feels strongly about something. And finally, locking a thread once the signal to noise ratio has passed a reasonable point is fine as well but deleting a civil, rational thread about a subject because someone does not like that subject is not acceptable in a society which prides itself on free speech. My suggestion would be to write a paragraph or two stating why you think car tires should not be used on motorcycles, insert that paragraph(s) into any such thread, and trust that your intelligence and ability to articulate the thought will be more persuasive than trying to remove such thoughts from a public (or at least available and open to the public) forum.

There are nine very intelligent and learned people in Washington DC who do not have the ability to regulate what I may or may not read, and I doubt that many individuals are better than that group; I would rather not have any individual dictate to me what I may or may not read, write or discuss.

With all due respect,
Brian




So are y'all telling me that you think anything should go on this forum? Is that what you really want. Think carefully before you respond.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2011, 12:39:56 am »
I have been tasked with the job of moderator. Therefore I have to make judgement calls about various things that come up on this board. I draw the line at car tire threads. They serve no good purpose on this forum and don't belong here. Anyone with half a brain knows that putting a car tire on a C14 is ludicrous. I turn a blind eye (daily) to many topics and opinions on here that I don't agree with, but I draw the line on this one. This is simply my judgement call on this topic.

This is the first and only thread I have ever removed from this forum, so it's not like I'm in here every day deleting things I don't agree with. If it bothers you that I won't allow car tire threads in this forum, then you should ask for me to be removed as a moderator, and then you can post them to your hearts delight. But until that time comes, I will continue to play the evil moderator and "sensor" this topic.
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Offline Bruce_Reafsnider_TN

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2011, 12:50:39 am »
I know of a former COG Tech Editor who feels very strongly about lowering a motorcycle.  He might use the same '1/2 a brain' argument asyou did, Fred.  But he posted his reasons for not endorsing the mod without insulting the forum members.  Your job is to moderate, and the origional thread wasn't off the charts by a long shot.  This is the COG forum, not Fred's Forum.

Offline BDF

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2011, 01:01:00 am »
Justify censorship in any way you see fit Fred but it is still censorship.

Frankly, I am surprised and a little disappointed that the rest of the COG operatives are standing quietly by and allowing one person to decide what may or may not be discussed. Gentlemen, your silence speaks volumes.

"As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy[sic]."
-A. Lincoln

Of course, delete this post or the entire thread as you feel it right and proper to do so.

Brian



I have been tasked with the job of moderator. Therefore I have to make judgement calls about various things that come up on this board. I draw the line at car tire threads. They serve no good purpose on this forum and don't belong here. Anyone with half a brain knows that putting a car tire on a C14 is ludicrous. I turn a blind eye (daily) to many topics and opinions on here that I don't agree with, but I draw the line on this one. This is simply my judgement call on this topic.

This is the first and only thread I have ever removed from this forum, so it's not like I'm in here every day deleting things I don't agree with. If it bothers you that I won't allow car tire threads in this forum, then you should ask for me to be removed as a moderator, and then you can post them to your hearts delight. But until that time comes, I will continue to play the evil moderator and "sensor" this topic.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2011, 01:26:25 am »
I hate this job and never wanted it in the first place, and this is exactly why. Too many people have nothing better to do than stir the pot just want to sit around and argue about useless topics that make no sense.

Keep stirring the pot. I think y'all should go find yourself a new moderator. Let me know when you do, I'll gladly leave.
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Offline Camper Dave

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2011, 01:41:34 am »
I'm sorry guys but I'm still backing Fred on this one. I've never met the guy, never talked to him, emailed him.. hell, I barely even ready the stuff he writes in the Concourier (he gets all high-tech and C-14ish and even before that, what's up with the Goldwing-a-ding stuff). And I could care less about a car tire on a motorcycle, I'm a do-rag, t-shirt, flip-flop rider, I don't even have 1/2 a brain... Heck, I think I'm one of the first few idiots to squeeze a wing-tire on a C-10.

Call it censorship if you want to, I say the man's just doing this Moderator thing the way he feels it should be done. You know, it's no wonder COG has trouble finding volunteers to fill some of these positions. Too many of you want to sit back and micro-manage what they all do from the safety of a forum. You get a dozen loud opinionated forum dwellers up in arms and they think they are speaking for the majority and know what's best for the forum (and the club).

He was asked and accepted the responsibility of moderating the C-14 forum. Like he said if you don't like it, email the appropriate person (or people) and ask to have him removed. You guys know of somebody as qualified and willing to moderate that section?

Oh look... Fred made another post while I was typing this... Nice going guys....
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Offline ZG

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2011, 01:44:00 am »
It's all good Fred, being a mod is a thankless job indeed, but we do all really appreciate the mods here that make this a great forum. Thanks!  :beerchug:
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Offline BDF

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2011, 01:44:04 am »
Fred,

No one has said a single nasty thing in this entire thread. We have all (you included) been perfect gentlemen and, I think, reasonable.

If you truly believe it is 'stiring the pot' then fine but I really believe you know better. No one asked you to leave any position you may currently have, myself included. What has been said is entirely centered around censorship. Further, we are not enemies but perhaps see things differently. You and I are both old and wise enough to know that and deal with it effectively. There is no need for threats nor is there any need for any of us to behave like petulant children.

Consider this: with all the posts in this thread, no one has even so much as suggested you were wrong in your views about CAR TIRES, myself included! The point is the ability and desire for one person to withhold certain thoughts and subjects from other persons, and is a struggle that goes back to the origins of society.

Let us consider a practical outcome: There is no need for anyone to apologize or stop stating his / her beliefs, nor fighting for those beliefs strongly. The question here is whether one individual has the right to withhold information from anyone else based on an opinion. No need to resign or anything similar, just stop banning any subject that has a clear or perhaps even convoluted path to motorcycles and motorcycling. I am not pressing for you to leave or be removed, just to set what I believe are practical limits on behavior and abilities regarding the control of subjects that may be discussed. Put another way, I ( and I do not think anyone else is either) am not rejecting YOU but rather the closure of a topic that is provocative but not outright deadly.

Listen to the better angles of your nature Fred and see if you can find a middle ground. I would be happy to discuss this privately with you should you desire.

I even choose to ignore the thinly veiled insult about arguing useless topics. It would see to me that if you believed the topic to be useless you would not have deleted an entire thread. Again, let's discuss this without rancor and see if we cannot find a common ground.

Brian



I hate this job and never wanted it in the first place, and this is exactly why. Too many people have nothing better to do than stir the pot just want to sit around and argue about useless topics that make no sense.

Keep stirring the pot. I think y'all should go find yourself a new moderator. Let me know when you do, I'll gladly leave.
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Offline 2linby

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2011, 02:11:35 am »
I'm a do-rag, t-shirt, flip-flop rider, I don't even have 1/2 a brain...

Ahhhhhh.....  ;)  Oh never mind!    :P

I beleive as long as a subject is broached in a open and honest manner without vitrol or resentment there shouldn't be a need to remove or dare I say "censor".  However this is not the arena and I can understand the apprehension of allowing a discussion that enevitably opens a can of worms and then runs unabated into the very vitrol we are attempting to shield this forum against.

My primary objection to several other forums was just that. The notion that there where no reasonable controls on the subject matter and that more often then not discussion on controversial subjects turned into pissing matches and personal attacks.

Yes there has to be a balance and I think the balance is having reasonable people take reasonable responsibilities and from time to time assert the authority they have within the structure we all have agreed to abide by.  After all this is not a democracy, but it is a system that should lend itself to such ideals.

There are many opinions from the past and recent history by those nine learned individuals we call supreme court judges that have been a detriment to our society and to make comparrisons to these persons is in my opinion, ludacris in itself.

I would council everyone to take a chill on this and get back to your regualrly scheduled program. There is no need to draw lines or worse, swords. Until we can devise a better system, this is the system we have.

Now can someone please tell me why we still do not have a darn spell checker?  :41:
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Offline MrPepsi

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2011, 02:16:32 am »
Fred I respect you very much, you are the most knowledgeable on the workings of the C14 engine I have ever encountered, I even respect your views about not wanting car tire threads on this thar forum. However, I do not believe you should have the ability to decide for the collective that we should censor a subject as such. If it came to a vote, maybe then I would support it if it past. But if don't allow such threads, how do we get the word out that we thing car tires on a moto is a bad idea. (which I do think by the way) No censoring of car tire threads.
That is all.
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Offline Stewart

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Re: Acceptable subjects
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2011, 02:20:15 am »
Fred,

While I can see your point, I'm not sure I understand why you took that stance. Reading some of these post is like looking at a car accident, you know you shouldn't.

On the other hand, if I made further comment and raised politics, religion or common law...I'm sure I would upset someone.

This country has some serious problems and free speech is not one of them or a solution to solving them.

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