Author Topic: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...  (Read 2072 times)

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Offline andyb

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A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« on: July 01, 2013, 11:13:23 pm »
Hey all - new to this forum but have been wrenching and riding for years...
My last ride was a 1996 GPZ1100 which shared a lot of parts with the C-10, and now i'm on the 2009 C-14.  Finally, at 15K and change miles, and based on doing multiple valve adjustments on all the bikes, I've taken the plunge...

about 2 hours into it, and am about ready to pull the cylinder head cover off - probably another hour to that point.

Questions - based on tricks i've used on the GPZ - I'm wondering if i can apply the following short cuts:

1. using the starter to crank the motor to TDC.  this works as long as i'm smart enough to leave the spark plugs disconnected (usually removed), over turning the crank by removing the crank shaft cover).  Got to thinking about this and am wondering if i do any major damage by turning on the ignition without the tank connected - will it jack things up if we suck too much air into the line between tank and injectors? 
2. in addition to starter switch to nudge the crank to TDC, also used to put the bike in 2nd gear on center stand and "tap" the wheel forward for small movements of the crank - can this be done, or again, do we cause too much damage in doing so...

btw, i'm fully convinced a lot of of the "less cautious" dealers would apply method 1 and 2 just to save some time - and perhaps charge for the cover gaskets...

On ordering replacement shims - are there any shim kits out there that have the inbetween sizes (2.025-2.725)?  how finicky is the bike to these half sizes?  I'm guessing everyone sees different results...

I have a pile of shims on hand - ranging 2.40-2.75 (mm) - what am i likely to find?  2.5 +/- a few, or is there any notoriety like the 09's have them all in the 2.10 range? 

I know the under-bucket-shims are a PITA - but like all have posted - it's not hard, just tedius.  perhaps along the lines of assult by finger nail clippers (why TSA won't let you carry them.... sorry, off topic).  the thing that is most annoying is the not having enough shims on hand and having to play the order and wait, or shuttle and haggle between dealers...

thanks in advance for all the feedback!

Andy B.

Offline C14Addict

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Re: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2013, 03:16:14 am »
andyb,

I personally would not try either of your shortcuts to obtain TDC, but appreciate your desire to make this tedious job easier. I have done the task 4 times, and have found only a couple of things that simplify the work. It's probably a little late to suggest Fred's videos since you have already dug into this project, but they are certainly recommended by most on board here, who are new to wrenching our babies. You should at least have the service manual in hand. Be aware there are some manual corrections that are posted on this forum.

IIRC, remove the ignition cover and hand crank clockwise the large crank nut, using the service manual procedure to get TDC. If any dealer tried to crank the starter to get TDC, they would never be allowed to work on my C14.

You may ask why the shortcuts won't work??? You may never get exact TDC doing it that way, and if you go a little past TDC, NEVER turn the crank backwards, as the cams will not line up due to slack in the cam chain.  Why?? The hydraulic cam chain tensioner will retract, giving incorrect TDC indications as viewed on ignition wheel.
Secondly, although I have not tried it, with much of the wiring harness disconnected at that point, you will probably get the CPU to reject a start switch attempt as there will be quite a few fault codes. I personally remove the battery when I get this deep into dis-assembly.

As for spinning the rear wheel in 2nd gear, you will find that is not possible, as the neutral finder won't let you get out of 1st.

For having enough shims, they are kind of a Murphy's law.... No matter how many shims you have, you will need more. Somewhere on this forum, there is a cross reference table that has Honda shims as exact replacement for Kawi shims if not in stock. I have used Hot Cam shims, but some don't like them due to the gaps in thickness range, but whatever gets correct clearance will work. Make a shim map (also available somewhere here). Oh, and did I suggest to do a search, since there are many threads that cover exactly what you need to get this job done. Take your time and do it right, first.

I came from the old school too, and had to adjust my thinking when working on the C14.   Take your time and plan it out.

Perhaps others can chime in here.
 



Don Frazier
79 GS1000 174K miles, Gone but not forgotten
08 ZG1400 118K miles, on way to next 100K

Offline andyb

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Re: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2013, 04:20:34 am »
thanks Don,

I suspected there'd be some old school tricks that would backfire. 

so i'm guessing the pre-order list then includes replacement gaskets for the ignition cover along with top gasket sealer (top gasket is reusable?)

thanks again.
ab

Offline C14Addict

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Re: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2013, 05:01:34 am »
Never changed ignition cover but valve cover gasket is the one you should get. Clean surfaces and a thin liquid gasket should work. Every other time, replace the cover bolt gaskets/washers  to help retain downward pressure on the gasket. Note: bolts bottom out, so don't try to put too much torque, but metal sided washers memory compress over time, thus replacement advised.

 ;)

Check cam sensor o-rings for leaks, especially exhaust side. Search threads for recent fix suggestions.

Good luck.
Don Frazier
79 GS1000 174K miles, Gone but not forgotten
08 ZG1400 118K miles, on way to next 100K

Offline Mad River Marc

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Re: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2013, 04:36:07 pm »
The timing wheel cover doesn't need a new Gasket, just some high temp RTV.

As for "shortcuts"  I can understand wanting to save time, but you literally will save 10 minutes doing it this way and run the risk of getting an incorrect measurement.   Best to do it by the book here.
You only need two tools in life – WD-40 and duct tape. If it doesn’t move and should, use the WD-40. If it shouldn’t move and does, use the duct tape.

Offline BDF

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Re: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2013, 04:52:49 pm »
There really isn't any reason to use the starter to turn the engine to a position- just put a ratchet on the end of the crankshaft and turn it as needed. It is tough to stop the engine at the exact spot you want when using the starter anyway.

Same thing for using the rear wheel: you can do it but why? Again, just turn the crankshaft with a ratchet.  I guess I just don't see the time savings using an alternate method. The crankshaft end (actually the timing wheel retaining nut on the crankshaft) is easy to get to and you need to take off that cover anyway to see the position of the crankshaft in the first place.

Changing shims is tedious and on this bike, pretty pesky because there is no handy way to seat the cams before putting the cam bearing caps on. The manual is a little misleading here but basically, you use the bearing caps to drive the cam down into the bearing saddles but it must be done quite evenly or the runners between the cam bearing caps will break. It would be better to jam something under the frame and push down on the center of each cam (one at a time is fine) and then install the bearing caps and snug the bolts IMO. That way the cam would be in place and the caps would fit all the way down before beginning the torque sequence.

You can pre order a set of shims but given that no set comes in 1/2 sizes, and you only get three I believe of each shim size, it is pretty likely you will still need to find specific shims after the cams are exposed. You may need four of a given size, or even more. It is just not possible to tell or even guess reasonably well beforehand. The best thing is a large, nearby dealer who will let you into their box of shims to swap out the sizes you need.

Brian

Questions - based on tricks i've used on the GPZ - I'm wondering if i can apply the following short cuts:

1. using the starter to crank the motor to TDC.  this works as long as i'm smart enough to leave the spark plugs disconnected (usually removed), over turning the crank by removing the crank shaft cover).  Got to thinking about this and am wondering if i do any major damage by turning on the ignition without the tank connected - will it jack things up if we suck too much air into the line between tank and injectors? 
2. in addition to starter switch to nudge the crank to TDC, also used to put the bike in 2nd gear on center stand and "tap" the wheel forward for small movements of the crank - can this be done, or again, do we cause too much damage in doing so...

<snip>

On ordering replacement shims - are there any shim kits out there that have the inbetween sizes (2.025-2.725)?  how finicky is the bike to these half sizes?  I'm guessing everyone sees different results...

I have a pile of shims on hand - ranging 2.40-2.75 (mm) - what am i likely to find?  2.5 +/- a few, or is there any notoriety like the 09's have them all in the 2.10 range? 

I know the under-bucket-shims are a PITA - but like all have posted - it's not hard, just tedius.  perhaps along the lines of assult by finger nail clippers (why TSA won't let you carry them.... sorry, off topic).  the thing that is most annoying is the not having enough shims on hand and having to play the order and wait, or shuttle and haggle between dealers...

thanks in advance for all the feedback!

Andy B.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline 4Bikes

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Re: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 06:13:42 pm »
It would be better to jam something under the frame and push down on the center of each cam (one at a time is fine) and then install the bearing caps and snug the bolts IMO. That way the cam would be in place and the caps would fit all the way down before beginning the torque sequence.


This totally sounds like a new BDF inspired product.  I would buy one!
Silver 2011 C-14 and 2019 Versys 1000 SE LT+.  Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline BDF

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Re: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2013, 08:24:42 pm »
I can't get the products I already have out never mind conjuring up new ones :-(  But it would be a slick tool I think. Personally I just don't like the method Kawasaki recommends at all for this- which is that they really don't mention it.

Brian


This totally sounds like a new BDF inspired product.  I would buy one!
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline andyb

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Re: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2013, 06:06:26 am »
Thanks all.

another 2 hours has me to where i'm ready to take measurements.  I understand your questioning the short cuts - on the GPZ, the crank bolt was under a cover with a paper gasket, which would invariably rip each time, and the dealer would never have one on hand, thus adding a week to the process.  plus the cover had a little peep hole (plug) which could be removed ...  C-10 should be the same I would think...  anyway, from seat removal to first clearance measurement on that bike was 30-45 minutes so it was a process I became quite familiar with.

my inventory of shims is around 5-7 each of 2.4-2.75, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

appreciate the inputs.  if i'm following your thought on the mcguyver tool, i'm envisioning a straight piece of rebar with maybe an old stripped 17-19mm socket welded to the center (nut well side against the bar), forming a 24" T?  I could see "over-the-top" deluxe version having 8 such flipped sockets welded, and maybe add the crappy stock handle bar grips that rattled the wrists numb on either end...  seat all intakes at once before positioning cams...  if it's worth doing, it's worth over doing, no?

is this how this crowd rolls?  cool!

thanks again.

Offline 4Bikes

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Re: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2013, 11:56:09 am »
In addition to the benefits listed by BDF of the using the envisioned “Tool”, it would also help manage the timing chain.  The strong valve springs pushing against the (down and offset) Intake Cam Lobes for cylinders #3 and #4, causes the camshaft to rotate forward as you install the Cam Bearing Caps and it bunches the timing chain.  I struggled with this and had to manage the chain to make sure it didn’t bunch and either jump a tooth or jamb on the cylinder head opening on the intake side.  So basically, using the Cam cap bolts to gradually seat the Cam stresses everything. 

Having a BDF tool to hold it down before installing the Caps and bolts would solve a lot of issues.    :popcorn:
Silver 2011 C-14 and 2019 Versys 1000 SE LT+.  Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline BDF

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Re: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2013, 03:40:14 pm »
Yes, the tool could look like a 'T' shaped thing that is simply cammed into place. It could even be as simple as a long nut and a bolt- if both were knurled and there was a radius on the bottom, and some kind of a hard rubber cap on top, it would be ideal. Put it in place over the middle of the cam, although position would not be critical. Then simply unscrew the stud from the body (easy boys!) and it would jack the cam down in the bearing housings. Something crude could be made from a coupling nut and a piece of threaded rod from Home Lowes in a pinch. Again, the cam does not have to be forced down with great pressure, just enough to overcome the valves that are hitting the lobes and preventing it from seating.

Even a bar of plastic of the right length would work if something like a piece of pipe was attached to it through the center. Again, it is nothing but a 'T' shaped object but if the contact faces were made of plastic it would minimize the chance of doing any damage even if it fell over and landed on top of the valve train.

Brian



<snip>

appreciate the inputs.  if i'm following your thought on the mcguyver tool, i'm envisioning a straight piece of rebar with maybe an old stripped 17-19mm socket welded to the center (nut well side against the bar), forming a 24" T?  I could see "over-the-top" deluxe version having 8 such flipped sockets welded, and maybe add the crappy stock handle bar grips that rattled the wrists numb on either end...  seat all intakes at once before positioning cams...  if it's worth doing, it's worth over doing, no?

is this how this crowd rolls?  cool!

thanks again.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline andyb

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Re: A few more valve adjustment q's - probably not new ones...
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2013, 10:31:32 pm »
well, as the re-assembly process is nearing completion, I better understand the vision of the BFD tool.  makes sense, and though mine all went together swimmingly, I didn't have any hang ups through the cam re-install, seating and cap install.  just using an air ratchet a little at a time on each bolt, following sequence x 3 rounds brought everything into place without incident.

thanks again for all the inputs.