Author Topic: "Butterflies"  (Read 2552 times)

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Offline Trouble

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"Butterflies"
« on: April 11, 2012, 05:12:31 pm »
Has anyone pulled the butterflies on a 2010 0r later C14 ?  If you have, Please give us a detailed report.
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Offline Mad River Marc

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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 05:33:10 pm »
I believe Fred tried it,  he could give the best report.   But given that the flies are an integral part of the traction control system I would really recommend against it.

The Guhl Reflash will open the flies earlier (all the benefits of removing them, but none of the drawbacks) and give you much better performance IMHO....
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 06:33:00 pm »
I pulled them on my 2010 before I had the ECU reflashed, and the traction control still worked, but it didn't engage quite as smooth and was a bit more jerky in it's operation, but it was still effective.

I reinstalled them and then sent the ECU off to Guhl Motors and had the map that controls the secondary butterflies reprogrammed to open them sooner/further, and that has been a very effective solution that doesn't impact the traction control function.

If you pull the butterflies, you will need to install a Power Commander and remap the fuel, which will end up costing you about the same as what reflashing the ECU will. You also risk breaking off a screw or damaging the rod they are attached to in the throttle body. For these reasons, I'd suggest you go for the ECU reflash instead of removing the butterflies. Prior to the development of the ability to reflash the ECU, removing the butterflies and installing a Power Commander was really the only option you had to uncork the engine, but now that we can easily reflash the ECU, that's definitely the way to go.

Give Don at Guhl motors a shout. He can fix you up. http://www.guhlmotors.com/
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Offline Mad River Marc

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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 06:35:26 pm »
Out of curiosity, is there any way for Mama K to see that the ECU has been flashed (if you have a warranty claim for motor or ECU failure for example)

Friend of mine insisted that if you flash an ECU they can tell with KDS and void warranty, I call BS on that...
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Offline Trouble

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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 06:56:39 pm »
I pulled them on my 2010 before I had the ECU reflashed, and the traction control still worked, but it didn't engage quite as smooth and was a bit more jerky in it's operation, but it was still effective.

I reinstalled them and then sent the ECU off to Guhl Motors and had the map that controls the secondary butterflies reprogrammed to open them sooner/further, and that has been a very effective solution that doesn't impact the traction control function.

If you pull the butterflies, you will need to install a Power Commander and remap the fuel, which will end up costing you about the same as what reflashing the ECU will. You also risk breaking off a screw or damaging the rod they are attached to in the throttle body. For these reasons, I'd suggest you go for the ECU reflash instead of removing the butterflies. Prior to the development of the ability to reflash the ECU, removing the butterflies and installing a Power Commander was really the only option you had to uncork the engine, but now that we can easily reflash the ECU, that's definitely the way to go.

Give Don at Guhl motors a shout. He can fix you up. http://www.guhlmotors.com/




there's only one problem with getting the ECU reflashed. It voids the warranty.  If you install a PCV at least you can unhook it with warranty in tack .

Im going to give that guy a call on the reflash
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2012, 07:13:27 pm »
Out of curiosity, is there any way for Mama K to see that the ECU has been flashed (if you have a warranty claim for motor or ECU failure for example)

Friend of mine insisted that if you flash an ECU they can tell with KDS and void warranty, I call BS on that...

I haven't used the KDS3 tool myself, but I don't believe there is any way that it can be used to check to see if the contents of the ECU have been altered. I have the KDS3 manual, and I don't see anything in it for doing anything like that.

I've see the term "void warranty" being thrown around in here in various threads rather loosely, and while Kawasaki certainly may give you grief if you blow up your engine due to modifying the electronics that control it, by no means does reprogramming the ECU impact the ENTIRE warranty for the bike. The brakes, and wheels, and suspension and other systems of the bike will not be impacted, so they should not be affected. There are also laws on the books that provide you some protection (Moss Magnum) and I believe the manufacture may have to provide some proof that whatever modifications you made were the cause of the problem that you are making a warranty claim against. If you bring your bike in for a leaking rear drive or a stuck rear brake, Kawasaki isn't going to care one bit if the ECU has been altered.

Furthermore, installing a Power Commander and removing the butterflies can also impact your warranty on your engine much in the same way an ECU reflash does.  So if you're worried about the engine blowing up and keeping your warranty, then you should leave your bike totally stock and not alter anything on it at all. Even installing aftermarket horns or lights could impact the warranty on the electrical system if something was done wrong and caused a wire harness to burn up.

The reality is that these engines are very robust, and the ECU reflash that Don Guhl uses is very conservative. Personally, I think folks fears about the warranty issue is overblown, and I have yet to hear of a single C14 that has suffered any serious engine failures.

The only real danger I can see that an ECU reflash or a Power Commander could cause would be if they ran the engine too lean, and caused it to hole a piston. This is why Don Guhl was real careful in being conservative on making fuel changes so that the engine never went too lean. The Guhl map also makes no changes to the ignition timing tables for this same reason and to protect from pinging or pre-ignition. But if you brought your bike into a dealer with a hole in your piston, and had a Power Commander installed or the ECU reflashed, then they would have every right to tell you that you would have to pay for the repair on your own dime, and I would fully expect that.

The other thing to consider is just why did you purchase the bike to begin with? Do you want to ride and enjoy it the way you like, or would you rather keep it totally stock just in case something that probably won't ever happen occurs? It's your cake. You'll have to decide if you want to eat it or look at it. For me it was a no brainer.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 07:40:12 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2012, 07:22:41 pm »
there's only one problem with getting the ECU reflashed. It voids the warranty.  If you install a PCV at least you can unhook it with warranty in tack .
Im going to give that guy a call on the reflash

Again, this is not totally true. Reflashing the ECU does not void the warranty on your entire motorcycle.

I had a Power Commander installed on my 08 with the butterflies removed and took it in and had the whole rear end rebuilt (under warranty) due to a leak and the shop was aware of the changes I had made to it. It simply wasn't an issue.

And FYI, the ECU can also be reflashed back to stock very easily if you want to return the bike to stock before you sell it.

Furthermore, Kawasaki is well aware of the ability of the ECU to be reflashed, and in private conversations, unnamed Kawasaki officials have even acknowledged that this ability has actually helped stimulate sales of some of their other models. The aftermarket manufactures and vendors and the OEMs are closely tied together and generally work to help each other, and not fight against each other, as it's in their best interest not to throw water on the very fire that is helping keep interest in their product.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 07:36:21 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Mad River Marc

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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2012, 07:56:42 pm »
Thanks Fred, that's what I insisted,   my friend continues to think otherwise :(

I personally am not going to do the flash (or flies) because I personally feel the bike is plenty enough fast for me, but it sounds like a good program :)
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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 08:11:07 pm »
I am not sure of what the KDS3 detects when reading the Flash, but usually for a memory file there is a CRC16 checksum and that is supposed to match what is put in the from the factory. This is what Motorola does on their high end radios as well as a version number.

When I "hack" those codeplug files on Motorola radios I remember what the CRC16 final value is, make my value changes in the codeplug and then look for an area of ASCII data such as Copyright (year) by Motorola Inc......blah blah and while in the hex editor make changes to the ASCII characters until the CRC16 is back to the original value before I started, save the image, then program the flash with the new image.

I am not sure what is done by Guhl, but it was probably something similar to this when  hacking the image file.

That is usually the way the images are checked by manufacturers when looking at versions, although some folks put more sophisticated tampering traps in.

If the warranty station cannot tell if the image has changed, then some folks might say it is OK and should be under warranty.

These fuel/mixture/temp maps don't really change the original design out of the perfromance envelope the engine is capable of, just the desire of where the rider wants the HP/torque curves to lie versus the engine RPM.

In a court I believe this would be considered voiding the warranty if a lawyer were to agree for that view, but what is the chance of that happening?


Sooner or later the KDS homeflash kit will be out and then you just change it back when you take it in.

There is always risk attached to this kind of cutting edge reverse engineering, your mitigation of that risk is a personal decision.

You know in your heart of hearts it is a change from the manufacturer's "official" release, so any downstrem consequences of that are possible.

So far it's been cool with dealers that have their claims paid, when the cake stops from KAW, then the story will get more interesting.

Craig

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Offline Mad River Marc

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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2012, 09:08:27 pm »
Actually warranty isn't what is holding me back,  I just can't justify spending 200 bucks or more to have the ECU flashed when the bike is already at a point where it  has more power then I will ever use.... I'm just not that aggressive a rider (as Cap'n Bob can attest to when he usually has to wait for me for a few minutes at each turn on a ride  :))  )so the added power really isn't something I'd want....
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2012, 09:08:42 pm »
I suspect if you ever rode a bike that had been reflashed, all your worries about any possible warranty issues would suddenly go out the window.

 ;D
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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2012, 10:17:53 pm »
I suspect if you ever rode a bike that had been reflashed, all your worries about any possible warranty issues would suddenly go out the window.

 ;D

That's what I have been thinking :motonoises:!!!!!
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Offline Trouble

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Re: "Butterflies"
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2012, 10:48:05 pm »
OK ! Had a long talk with rob of http://www.guhlmotors.com/ . He was very nice and informative. He saved me a ton of money with his suggestions .

1. Let me clear this up first . Rob has to put a number on the ECU . Any shop that knows about reflashing will notice it. However, kawasaki has to prove the problem came as a result of the reflash. In most cases Rob said he hasn't had any warranty problems out of Kawasaki as a result of reflashing .

2. the headers do have a catalytic converter in them . I pulled my can and pipe and took a look. it's honeycone shaped . so I thought for a moment and went to Lowes and bought two 24in drill bits and went to work. Surprisingly it wasn't so hard to drill and dig the converter out. then I used a wood bit to finish the job. destroyed the bit but the converter is but all gone. Just saved me $1300 on new headers.

3. Rob said I can give him my setup and he can not only take care of the secondary butterflies, but he can set a new map that will get me around 23 HP and possibly 28 HP at 9K RPM gain .  I like the idea of the full range of power he offers. Others don't provide the fix on the butterflies thus making rob's deal the best. For $375  I get a fantastic reflash . I wont have to remove the butterflies. Wont have to buy headers. Rob ROCKS !
Im sending the ECU off tomorrow. I will let you know the results when I get it back .  We might be looking at a 160 HP Connie  :)
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