Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Concours 14 / ZG1400 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: seagiant1 on September 21, 2017, 03:18:00 pm

Title: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: seagiant1 on September 21, 2017, 03:18:00 pm
Hi,
       I had a forum discussion awhile back with Matt....

Talking about the fuel BRAND you run in your scooter!

One of the things he warned about was the amount of WATER in the lower brands of fuel!

Also I guess the higher brand has some beneficial additives already included?

Saw this list and thought I would put it up!

Admittedly the top tier brands are a little more expensive! ;D

http://www.toptiergas.com/licensedbrands/ (http://www.toptiergas.com/licensedbrands/)
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: OKC14 on September 21, 2017, 07:16:09 pm
I use Techron additive as much as possible and try to stay away from ethanol blends.  +1 on PureGas app.
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: FTL900 on September 21, 2017, 08:10:10 pm
While living in the Seattle area, we rode a few miles to gas up on non-ethanol. It was a dollar more a gallon, but worthy it in my mind. 
Here in Las Vegas, there's a county-wide restriction on non-ethanol fuels, and it's a BIG county.   So that's out.   I'll have to go back to adding an ounce of Startron with every tank of gas. 
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 21, 2017, 08:50:16 pm
Top tier has nothing to do with pure gas, or non ethanol. Steve
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: OKC14 on September 22, 2017, 12:05:36 pm
Top tier has nothing to do with pure gas, or non ethanol. Steve

Agree, Steve... its just a standardized detergent blend...  I was just alluding to the fact that I could give a crap about Top Tier, I just stay away from ethanol and run some Techron through now and again. 

Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: Jim on September 22, 2017, 01:18:16 pm
Hi,
       I had a forum discussion awhile back with Matt....

Talking about the fuel BRAND you run in your scooter!

One of the things he warned about was the amount of WATER in the lower brands of fuel!

Also I guess the higher brand has some beneficial additives already included?

Saw this list and thought I would put it up!

Admittedly the top tier brands are a little more expensive! ;D

[url]http://www.toptiergas.com/licensedbrands/[/url] ([url]http://www.toptiergas.com/licensedbrands/[/url])


Whether it's "Top Tier" or the cheap stuff water will not be an issue. At the refinery it all comes out of the same tanks and the additives are put in at the loading rack.
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: JDSCO on September 22, 2017, 01:41:42 pm
Whether it's "Top Tier" or the cheap stuff water will not be an issue. At the refinery it all comes out of the same tanks and the additives are put in at the loading rack.

Isn't the "water in gasoline factor" based on gas stations, the end of the line for mass storage, that have water/condensation issues with their holding tanks?
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: seagiant1 on September 22, 2017, 01:50:48 pm
Whether it's "Top Tier" or the cheap stuff water will not be an issue. At the refinery it all comes out of the same tanks and the additives are put in at the loading rack.

Isn't the "water in gasoline factor" based on gas stations, the end of the line for mass storage, that have water/condensation issues with their holding tanks?

Hi,
       BINGO!!! ;D
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 22, 2017, 02:36:21 pm
Top tier has nothing to do with pure gas, or non ethanol. Steve

Agree, Steve... its just a standardized detergent blend...  I was just alluding to the fact that I could give a crap about Top Tier, I just stay away from ethanol and run some Techron through now and again.

I couldn't disagree more with you on the top tier rating. As a guy whose living came from rebuilding engines for decades, I have seen firsthand the difference between top tier and lesser fuels. I personally only run top tier fuels unless I absolutely cannot get it. Steve

Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: connie_rider on September 22, 2017, 02:52:05 pm
I'll add another important thing that was mentioned, but the importance of it may not be realized...

ie; Isn't the "water in gasoline factor" based on gas stations, the end of the line for mass storage, that have water/condensation issues with their holding tanks?

Stations for the Top Tier Gas Companies "must" monitor/control the water in their tanks.
Filters must be changed regularly.
Lesser brands may not have these requirements.
So, by buying from the Top Tier Companies, your less likely to get water/trash in your gas.

PS: The system is not perfect, but it offers more protection.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: seagiant1 on September 22, 2017, 03:12:36 pm
 As a guy whose living came from rebuilding engines for decades, I have seen firsthand the difference between top tier and lesser fuels. I personally only run top tier fuels unless I absolutely cannot get it. Steve


Hi,
       Well...I would have to take that as coming from the "horses mouth" so to speak! ;D

Admittedly, I have only lately, made a concerted effort, to use the best fuel I can!  :-[

Another benefit of hanging around this crowd, I guess! :great:
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: OKC14 on September 22, 2017, 06:54:00 pm

I couldn't disagree more with you on the top tier rating. As a guy whose living came from rebuilding engines for decades, I have seen firsthand the difference between top tier and lesser fuels. I personally only run top tier fuels unless I absolutely cannot get it. Steve

Meh. I suppose I'm tainted because it's hard to find non-TT fuel around here. It's all either Phillips or QT. My deciding factor is non-ethanol.  Different strokes but same overall concept, living in the former oil capital of the world :)
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: connie_rider on September 22, 2017, 09:13:29 pm
I'm in Houston. There is "no" non-ethanol fuel here...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: JTX on September 22, 2017, 09:26:59 pm
Hi,
       I had a forum discussion awhile back with Matt....

Talking about the fuel BRAND you run in your scooter!

One of the things he warned about was the amount of WATER in the lower brands of fuel!

Also I guess the higher brand has some beneficial additives already included?

Saw this list and thought I would put it up!

Admittedly the top tier brands are a little more expensive! ;D

[url]http://www.toptiergas.com/licensedbrands/[/url] ([url]http://www.toptiergas.com/licensedbrands/[/url])



Its long past due to eliminate the nonsense associated with alcohol in cars as a viable substitute or supplement to real gas.


I try to buy pure gas whenever I can, but I also tend to stick with not so much the brand, but how a gas station LOOKS from the outside.


Does it look like they've never had the tank inspected? I look for a different store.  So far so good on that method.


I used to deliver fuel for a living, and we would on occasion check for water.  The water will settle to the bottom.  Sometimes I noticed 1-2 inches of water.  Thats a lot.


I don't recall the problem with water being in newer tanks. But sometimes it was there.


  Its been a while since I've done that line of work.  But contrary to popular belief, the intake is not resting on the bottom of the tank.  Its at least 3-4 inches off the bottom as they know water settles.  The worst time to buy gas is right after delivery where water would be dispersed.
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: Deepsea on September 22, 2017, 10:19:57 pm
If you're fortunate enough to live in the sunny socialist state of Kalifornia :nananana:  where we ride year round you can also deal not only with E10 crap gas you can now buy the even worse E15 "Flex Fuel".
Before I closed my shop I drained more than a few gas tanks containing anywhere from 1/2 oz to 1/2 cup of water. Granted these were antique bikes but the problem is that alcohol absorbs water which then drops out of solution.
For several years now I've been adding 1/2oz of STA-BIL "Marine" to at least every other tank of gas, usually every tank of gasohol. It prevents the water from separating. Another thing that will make a big difference is never park your bike with less that a full tank. It only takes a day or two for water vapor to condense with a partial tank. It's only a very small amount but it's cumulative. 
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: khager01 on September 22, 2017, 10:36:22 pm
I'm in Houston. There is "no" non-ethanol fuel here...

Ride safe, Ted

Same here in DFW land.  You have to get pretty far out to find some.  And since we all know ethanol attracts water, you are more likely to find water in E-10 than E-0 common sense, not to mention all the other problems associated with ethanol.
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: JTX on September 22, 2017, 10:39:42 pm
I'm in Houston. There is "no" non-ethanol fuel here...

Ride safe, Ted

Same here in DFW land.  You have to get pretty far out to find some.  And since we all know ethanol attracts water, you are more likely to find water in E-10 than E-0 common sense, not to mention all the other problems associated with ethanol.


We only recently got pure gas here via Murphy USA in the last year.  It's been a god send.  I dont have any trouble with my gas mowers or weed eaters anymore.  Granted, you can buy it at home depot but they really get you in cost.  I Also run it in my generator which I dont want gunked up with alcohol.


The stations are still out here because of the imbeciles causing the fuel shortage after a bogus socialist media post.  But hopefully it'll be back soon. I keep it in the C14 tank in the off-season here which is summer months.



Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: Dirtwiz on September 22, 2017, 11:15:56 pm
I just started using top tier gas in my BMW (car) and C14 within the last 6 months. My BMW mechanic encourages all his customers use TT fuels and has many stories to tell about the difference between these fuels. While I can't tell the difference in my C14 I can surely tell the difference in my car. Much cleaner starts with no stumble and just cleaner performance at all rpm's. I was using Maverik gas previously in both since Maverik dominates the market in Utah, but I just look a little harder for TT gas now. 15 cents per gallon won't make a difference for me running good fuel.
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: currenv on September 23, 2017, 02:30:58 am
Sorry, excuse my dumbitude or maybe I missed it...

Top tier = name brand, e.g, Shell, Mobil, etc.?

Or something else?


Thanks,

Vinnie
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: Jorge on September 23, 2017, 04:39:47 am
Top Tier means that the gas prevents buildup of carbon on the intake valves. This doesn't happen in one month, but it's a slow and steady buildup when Top Tier is not used. I believe it only, or mostly, affects fuel injected engines, not carbureted ones.
The buildup (if I remember right) is caused by fuel droplets hitting the intake valve, and building a sort of soot, or tar, on the valves. Top Tier gasoline cleans this off over time, and prevents buildup.
Do some looking up, there are multiple articles pointing out the advantages.
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on September 23, 2017, 08:33:44 am
I've been using ISO HEET (red bottle) in my FI engines. It seems to help removing water well.
In engines with DI injection valve neck carbon build up is a known issue.  Moreso in turbo charged DI engines where engine oil blow-by is another issue due to use of improper oil, high mileage, CHRA seals leaking etc. No matter how "TopTier-ish" fuel is used in a DI engine, it won't help prevent carbon buildup. Port injection engines suffer less of a carbon build up.
Proper maintenance is the key to keep engine healthy.

Cheers...
 
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 23, 2017, 09:39:56 am
Top Tier means that the gas prevents buildup of carbon on the intake valves. This doesn't happen in one month, but it's a slow and steady buildup when Top Tier is not used. I believe it only, or mostly, affects fuel injected engines, not carbureted ones.
The buildup (if I remember right) is caused by fuel droplets hitting the intake valve, and building a sort of soot, or tar, on the valves. Top Tier gasoline cleans this off over time, and prevents buildup.
Do some looking up, there are multiple articles pointing out the advantages.

Actually it's even more prevalent in carbureted engines. And if you've never wire wheeled carbon from a valve, you have no idea just how tenacious that stuff is, and how badly it will restrict an intake track.

 The history of top tier fuel goes back to the bmw 50,000 mile / unlimited fuel mileage tests from the 70's. They would dissassemble and engine, weigh the valves, pistons, and cc the combuston chambers then test for buildup by running an engine with a given fuel for 50,000 miles. Depending on the amount of build up, the fuel was deemed good for 50,000 miles, or unlimited mileage. That morphed into the "top tier" testing we have today. Steve
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: Pilgrim on September 23, 2017, 11:16:54 am
Sorry, excuse my dumbitude or maybe I missed it...

Top tier = name brand, e.g, Shell, Mobil, etc.?

Or something else?


Thanks,

Vinnie


Posted in the opening , check this site http://www.toptiergas.com/licensedbrands/ (http://www.toptiergas.com/licensedbrands/)
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: connie_rider on September 23, 2017, 02:58:13 pm
I used to do the fuel tests that Steve describes.
Every gas company tries to develop additives that make their fuel the best.

Along the way, the Government stepped in and developed standards that "all" gasoline must meet.
The standards are so tough that it made it pretty difficult to have a better additive than the Gov specified.

The Gov also set up a system to ensure the Octane ratings of fuel are met...

Bottom line, even the underdogs now have pretty good fuel.
But, I still suggest using the nicer/name brand fuels to help keep water out of your gas..

I also suggest changing your brand of fuel regularly.
   Each brand has it's own valve deposit characteristic's.
   By changing Brands, you get better overall cleaning.

Ride safe, Ted




Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: JDSCO on September 23, 2017, 04:10:04 pm
So my thinking, after reading this thread, is that I would rather purchase No Ethanol 91oct (only this is available locally) from a "perhaps non two-tier" supplier than purchase 10% ethanol from a top-tier supplier.
Both choices still require some additive. I add 44K several time a year because of this.
This "no ethanol" proprietor assures me that a Shell refinery is their fuel origin.
Did she just tell me that because I wanted to hear that?
I don't know.

Usually but not always, two-tier stations have modern, relatively new pumps and a tidy environment. Apparently, they also conform to quality standards.
The No Ethanol 91 supplier has new pumps and is tidy as well.

As a consumer, I have no clue to the integrity of any gas station other than a familiar sign and/or presentation.

I will always purchase two-tier 10% if "no ethanol" isn't available. Always.

I live at 9000' msl.
I've tried 87 and 85oct ethanol fuel  from top-tier Shell and Phillips66 in both bikes, because the lower octane is assumed to run "better".
The bikes don't run worse and they do not run "better".
I believe the reason is that, in Colorado because of it's altitude, 10% fuels are not the same quality you would find in lower altitude regions/states.

The science of "lower octane at altitude" is sound but that science is based on ideal fuel conditions.
I don't think that two-tier suppliers conform to those conditions, here.
On any seasonal day, you'll see more dirt, dual sport, sport and touring bikes up here than in most everywhere else. Most of those are not enthused about local ethanol fuel sources, two-tier or not.
In Colorado high country, two-tier 10% fuel isn't that ideal fuel condition, but the average consumer doesn't have a clue nor do most even care.
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: Jorge on September 23, 2017, 11:02:16 pm
Steve, thanks for correcting my error!
If I understood the "rules" for Top Tier correctly, all the grades sold by a Top Tier station must meet the more stringent requirements, where is gasohol or straight gasoline, so you may not have to make that choice :-)
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: currenv on September 25, 2017, 03:48:15 am
Thanks for reposting the link to the top tier brands which I missed in the first post.  It's a surprisingly (to me) long list of vendors, with many discount brands included.  Looks like I've been complying with the advice to use this fuel, albeit by accident.

Vinnie
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 25, 2017, 11:34:00 am
Thanks for reposting the link to the top tier brands which I missed in the first post.  It's a surprisingly (to me) long list of vendors, with many discount brands included.  Looks like I've been complying with the advice to use this fuel, albeit by accident.

Vinnie

  Funny how that works.  I'm developing some property to move to about 100 miles away. Kind of remote. There's no Shell, Texaco, BP around there... but a bunch of Marathon stations. I gassed up there out of necessity a few times. The question lingered, so I went and reviewed the top tier list . WHEW lucky I guess... Marathon is top tier! My truck even started running better after I found that out !  :rotflmao:  Steve
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: ChrisM on September 25, 2017, 01:32:16 pm
I was once told to avoid filling up at stations that were actively receiving a fuel delivery since the water and debris can get stirred up in the tanks while they are being filled. I only use TT fuel, but also avoid stations with a tanker in the parking lot.

Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: seagiant1 on September 25, 2017, 03:25:52 pm
Hi,
       There is a MARATHON Station at the exit off I-95 and US 17 leading to Charleston,SC.

I used to stop there everytime I went back to work, in need of a fill up. :motonoises:

I to, was not sure if it was a TT station, but it did usually, have clean restrooms!!! ;D ;D ;D

Now I know! :great:
Title: Re: "Top Tier Fuels, In Your C14???
Post by: bobgroger on October 11, 2017, 12:48:55 am
"Top Tier" is a pay-to-play marketing campaign. It requires a standard minimum additive package that is most likely already in the tanks at the rack where the trucks fill up. The racks are run by the biggest players, some of who do not sell retail fuel. Locally there are Kinder-Morgan, a pipeline operator; US Oil; Conoco-Phillips; and Arco (Exxon-Mobil). They feed ALL the branded and unbranded stations here. Chevron is the only one AFAIK that require a 5 gallon bucket of additive thrown in a 10000 gallon load. I have spent a lot of time working for a petroleum transport company. What I look for is a newer (plastic tanks, less condensation) station that does high volume and has frequent refills. One Costco for example can get 3 10000 gallon loads a day from 3 different racks and they are "Top Tier".