Author Topic: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping  (Read 1231 times)

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Offline Travis

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09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« on: August 20, 2017, 08:32:31 pm »
So my Concours has 22k miles. I ride hard, hammering the throttle off the light often and play around a bit doing a wheely probably a few times a week.

What has begun to happen is if I'm in gear 1st or 2nd, and gun it, it will start to go and then around 7000 - 8000 RPM the clutch starts slipping and the RPMs peg out.

SO... What's the likelyhood of me having worn out the clutch vs just simple stuff like in this thread http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-c10-zg1000-general-chat-and-tech/clutch-problems/25/ ?


Thanks!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 08:50:05 pm by kyferez »

Offline Deepsea

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2017, 09:28:33 pm »
I have 54k miles on my 09. I bought it in 2013 with 9k on the clock. Most of my 40k miles have been at a very sporting pace or either on a track or at the Dry Lakes or on a runway. The only way to know for sure is open the clutch up and look. If you do it with the bike on the side stand there's no need to drain the oil. Get a new gasket first just incase it breaks or tears. This is not a difficult task. If you don't have a service manual GET one and read it. It might be that the steel plates just need a light sanding to break a glaze. I can't imagine the friction plates being bad with only 22k miles. This bike like most Kawa's has an almost bullet proof clutch. Could be a broken spring, but all of this is speculation until you look at it.
What kind of oil do you use? Ever put any additives in the oil ? Do you drag race ? Lots of questions you haven't answered yet.
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Offline OKC14

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2017, 12:01:32 pm »
Another possible easy fix... do you have an aftermarket lever installed?

Offline smithr1

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2017, 05:39:32 pm »
Another possibility is the clutch fluid is old and the system needs to be serviced.
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Offline Deepsea

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2017, 11:20:59 pm »
Looks like another 1 post wonder.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 06:43:40 am »
So my Concours has 22k miles. I ride hard, hammering the throttle off the light often and play around a bit doing a wheely probably a few times a week.

What has begun to happen is if I'm in gear 1st or 2nd, and gun it, it will start to go and then around 7000 - 8000 RPM the clutch starts slipping and the RPMs peg out.

SO... What's the likelyhood of me having worn out the clutch vs just simple stuff like in this thread http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-c10-zg1000-general-chat-and-tech/clutch-problems/25/ ?


Thanks!


I was gonna mention that also... and anyone that would read the post made, and didn't say..... "how'd that work out for ya???? Not too good eh?" Wouldstill be thinking it anyway....  :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

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Offline Travis

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 07:39:54 pm »
Looks like another 1 post wonder.
Nope, just forgot to check back after I got my account posting privileges reinstated :) .

No, the clutch fluid is not old, I bleed it all out and replaced with new last summer.

So... I took apart the clutch today. OMG one of the fiber plates is Totally gone on one side. What could make that happen? Also, yes, some of the steel plates have glazing. Star springs are good. Clutch springs are 32mm? Manual says they should be 65mm!!!??? WHAT!?

Here's the thickness of each fiber plate (didn't measure steel plates). Starting at furthest back:
3.87mm
3.66mm
3.72mm
3.62mm
3.74mm
3.65mm
3.20mm
2.99mm <--this one has the pads gone on one side.
2.98mm

If I'm reading the manual right, those thinner ones are supposed to be on the inner and outer sides, right?
And the one at 3.2mm is below service limit?
Do the inner and outer have friction pads on both sides?
Any idea on spring length?
Wondering if someone tinkered with the clutch before... So how many of each type of plate (steel and friction) and thicknesses of each friction should there be?

Manual says this about thicknesses. However it isn't clear on how many friction nor how many steel plates nor how many thinner ones there are nor where thinner ones go except the outer one...
13088-0030, 13088-0031
Standard: 2.92 ~ 3.08mm (0.115 ~ 0.121 in.)
Service Limit: 2.7mm (0.106 in.)

13088-0032
Standard: 3.72 ~ 3.88mm (0.146 ~ 0.153 in.)
Service Limit: 3.5mm (0.138 in.)

Thanks Guys!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 08:47:10 pm by Travis »

Offline Fred_Wa2gzw

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2017, 10:27:47 pm »
I would try changing the oil before I did anything else, but what do I know-lol.

Good Luck
Fred

Offline Travis

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2017, 10:35:13 pm »
I would try changing the oil before I did anything else, but what do I know-lol.

Good Luck
Fred
The friction plate without any friction bands left doesn't concern you?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2017, 10:48:18 pm »
Well, my comment is..
Buy a new set of OEM fibre plates, stick them in a ziplok bag, coating each one with the engine oil you uses.. let them sit overnight...
And then check the steel plates for warps and glazing sitting flat on a piece of glass, or a mirror, or whatever... and scrub them gently with 600 grit wet paper, to clean them.. reassemble as the manual shows..

.
.
 And stop doing burnouts and wheelies... its a sport TOURING bike

You don't see Amish men making Draft horses stand on their hind legs...
 Get a grip.

I've ridden 2 up, pulling a trailer for thousnads of miles, and did many "burnouts", without fail.. abuse it enough, and you get what you dished out...

Just saying....

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Offline Travis

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2017, 11:54:22 pm »
Well, my comment is..
Buy a new set of OEM fibre plates, stick them in a ziplok bag, coating each one with the engine oil you uses.. let them sit overnight...
And then check the steel plates for warps and glazing sitting flat on a piece of glass, or a mirror, or whatever... and scrub them gently with 600 grit wet paper, to clean them.. reassemble as the manual shows..

.
.
 And stop doing burnouts and wheelies... its a sport TOURING bike

You don't see Amish men making Draft horses stand on their hind legs...
 Get a grip.

I've ridden 2 up, pulling a trailer for thousnads of miles, and did many "burnouts", without fail.. abuse it enough, and you get what you dished out...

Just saying....
Thanks for the reply, but this doesn't address Any of my questions :( which are important because as I said in my post I think someone, before I bought it 1yr ago with 21k miles on it, tinkered with the clutch, due to the positioning of the 2 thinner friction plates... Here's my questions, restated:

If I'm reading the manual right, the thinner friction plates are supposed to be on the inner and outer sides of the stack, right?
Do the inner and outer have friction pads on both sides?
Any idea on spring length in the manual saying 65mm for the clutch springs but them actually being 32mm?
If the springs are supposed to be 32mm, what's the service measurement?

Edit: I never said I did burnouts; I said I hammer it off the line. It's a touring bike only in the way it sits. It's designed more as a sport bike. ZR1400 from what I read uses mostly the same parts... Right?

Thank you
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 12:15:24 am by Travis »

Offline Fred_Wa2gzw

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 03:10:04 pm »
I would try changing the oil before I did anything else, but what do I know-lol.

Good Luck
Fred
The friction plate without any friction bands left doesn't concern you?

I actually would have changed the oil before stripping the clutch from the bike.

Offline Travis

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 05:30:53 pm »
Well I've got clutch plates and springs coming. Since the manual isn't 100% clear on the orientation of the plates and no one has answered my questions I guess I'm going to go with this disassembly diagram which shows the only different plates are outer and inner ones; just not sure as I can't find the thicknesses of each of the plates mentioned in that stack and other sections of the manual lists different plates ugh; or maybe I'll call Kawasaki... The service manual isn't so great; it has a bit of missing/incorrect data just with the clutch.

https://imgur.com/jOgPLme
https://imgur.com/Sr7gMXm
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 05:39:08 pm by Travis »

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 07:56:46 pm »
Sorry
I get what you are saying now about the FSM... it is confusing....

All friction plates have material on both surfaces...
Seems there are 3 plate numbers....
13088-0033 and -0037 are to be .146"-.153". And limit is .138".    -0033 is the innermost friction, and I think it is smaller in diameter, not sure...
13088-0031 thickness is .115"-.121". Limit is .106".    This is the outermost friction plate.

As per FSM
-0033 goes in first, followed by the others, and outer one gets staggered off one notch.the outer one is the thin one, -0031
Thinnest steel plate (called the adjuster plate for stack height) goes in steel plate fifth position from the back

Max warp on these is .012", with normal being within .0059"
Microfiche is showing the nominal steel ones used are 2.6 mm thk... one may be thinner, or thicker based on the way it was adjusted at factory for stack height..

As for springs.. its confusing... but
The outer ones are 1.64" with a limit of 1.58" if I'm reading this correctly from the chart
And are the ones that are under the outer plate retaining bolts...
But again, I can't be positive
I think the long springs are the cam damper (inner springs) which may be 65 mm (2.56") and limit is 62 mm (1.58")

If I'm reading it right, again, as its placed oddly in the assembly procedure...
If you are only replacing the friction plates, and they all measure good, soak them in oil and install them without messing with steel ones.. stack height should be fine, as these are pretty consistant plates when manufactured
I'll do some more searching, hope this helps you in meantime...
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 08:17:00 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 08:21:33 pm »
Just want to add, I have the actual first FSM to come to the USA, supplied to me from Kaw corporate...
The ink was till fresh when I got it... hopefully they have done some revisions since July 2007...  :))


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Offline Travis

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2017, 10:59:00 pm »
Just want to add, I have the actual first FSM to come to the USA, supplied to me from Kaw corporate...
The ink was till fresh when I got it... hopefully they have done some revisions since July 2007...  :))
Thank you, your prior reply helps a LOT. I should get the new fibers in Thursday so will install them the following week. That's the same edition of paper manual I have too.

Offline Travis

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2017, 09:27:14 pm »
Just want to add, I have the actual first FSM to come to the USA, supplied to me from Kaw corporate...
The ink was till fresh when I got it... hopefully they have done some revisions since July 2007...  :))
Thank you, your prior reply helps a LOT. I should get the new fibers in Thursday so will install them the following week. That's the same edition of paper manual I have too.
New fiber plates installed, new springs installed, steel plates sanded radially with 400 grit. Works beautifully. Thanks for your help with the fiber plates placements!  :)

Offline rcannon409

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2017, 12:07:05 am »
I had to do a bunch of digging into the Kawasaki clutches, a year or so back.  I had to do so when I fitted the Versys 1000 clutch into my ninja 1000 to get the slipper clutch..It turns out all the Japanese clutches, as well as most other motorcycle brands use clutches made by a Japanese company called FCC.

Anyway, the ninja,/versys, also use the two, odd clutch plates.  Thinner, and supposed to be on each end,,or top and bottom.  However you look at it.

The best answer I got was the material is slightly different as one side of the odd plates rides against aluminum instead of steel, like it would in the rest of the stack.

The aftermarket clutch plate manufacturers don't do anything different, so it's probably not a huge deal.  Then again, the aftermarket plates suck..so, maybe it is?

If you ever need to identify the thin plates, without a way to measure, look along the edges.  They have a unique part number on them.


Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2017, 05:00:55 am »
I had to do a bunch of digging into the Kawasaki clutches, a year or so back.  I had to do so when I fitted the Versys 1000 clutch into my ninja 1000 to get the slipper clutch..It turns out all the Japanese clutches, as well as most other motorcycle brands use clutches made by a Japanese company called FCC.

Anyway, the ninja,/versys, also use the two, odd clutch plates.  Thinner, and supposed to be on each end,,or top and bottom.  However you look at it.

The best answer I got was the material is slightly different as one side of the odd plates rides against aluminum instead of steel, like it would in the rest of the stack.

The aftermarket clutch plate manufacturers don't do anything different, so it's probably not a huge deal.  Then again, the aftermarket plates suck..so, maybe it is?

If you ever need to identify the thin plates, without a way to measure, look along the edges.  They have a unique part number on them.


Interesting....
I've done quite a few ZG1000 clutch replacements, using OEM plates, and all the C10's friction plates are the same thickness...
I would have to assume also, the frictions on the older zx Ninja 1000 engines were identical...

Now which year Ninja and other bike plates are you talking about....??? I was surprised when I examined the assembly for the C14 that there were 2 thicknesses, but in reality only ONE plate in that stack is a thinner friction the others are all the same thickness, aven the one numbered differently as I noted in my explanation of plate numbers and associated thicknesses posted above....
All the steel plates are identical with exception to ONE plate, which is used to adjust stack height..

I do agree tho that aftermarket plates are very much crappy, and attention to dimensions on them are all over the place, having used many versions when racing my old KZ and doing 2 clutch swaps a weekend.... Barnett was the worst, and closly followed by CIR Cylcle (back in the 80's),

OEM were always within spec when soaked, and seldom if ever did I need to re evaluate stack heights with steels unless I warped one badly, and even then, simply putting the exact same thickness one in, worked fine.

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Offline rcannon409

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2017, 01:41:04 am »
Mob, this would have been dealing with clutches 2012, or newer...a 2012, and 2014 to be exact.

No idea if this is true, but I wonder if this could be related to their stretching out the oil changes.  It went from 3000...4000..6000 and now we're up to 7500.

I wondered if those two end plates, that might not see amazing oil flow, were not holding up?

Also worth noting is that stock ninja 1000 clutch was garbage. Despite those two, special plates. It did suffer from poor oil flow and really needed the basket drilled.  By 2016, Kawasaki dropped that old design and went with the assist slipper clutch. 

If you have not seen that design, you should google it,. You've probably seen it.  It's so simple, and uses the engines power to hold itself together instead of just spring power. It works very well, uses three springs, and lots like it is much cheaper to manufacture.  Clutch pull weight is about 1/2 of a normal clutch. 

It's that part you see and think, "I should have thought of that."

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2017, 07:21:54 pm »
Mob, this would have been dealing with clutches 2012, or newer...a 2012, and 2014 to be exact.

No idea if this is true, but I wonder if this could be related to their stretching out the oil changes.  It went from 3000...4000..6000 and now we're up to 7500.

I wondered if those two end plates, that might not see amazing oil flow, were not holding up?

Also worth noting is that stock ninja 1000 clutch was garbage. Despite those two, special plates. It did suffer from poor oil flow and really needed the basket drilled.  By 2016, Kawasaki dropped that old design and went with the assist slipper clutch. 

If you have not seen that design, you should google it,. You've probably seen it.  It's so simple, and uses the engines power to hold itself together instead of just spring power. It works very well, uses three springs, and lots like it is much cheaper to manufacture.  Clutch pull weight is about 1/2 of a normal clutch. 

It's that part you see and think, "I should have thought of that."

Well, I did due dilligence and examined the assemblies on Versys and Ninja 1000, 2016 thru 2012...

Besides the fact that all are cable actuated clutches, the ZX1000MGF model had the same clutch as the Versys, same plates, etc... and only one plate thickness.

The prior versions, the zx1000MEF and MFF, and lower, used two thinner plates...
So retrofitting a ZX1000MGF clutch, which was produced and in some zx1000 models simultaniously alongside the MEF and MFF clutch duirng the same years (2014 & '15), would have gotten you what you desired...until the MGF became the standard in 2016.

Does make it tricky to order clutch parts tho, until you open a '14 or '15 clutch, to see actually what was in there...

The slipper section is applied externally on the outer pressure plate on the ZX version, both the slipper and the pressure plates are spring loaded..they use 3 springs each to load the stack. just as in the C14, except the C14 has the slipper mechanism internal between the stack and inner hub , and both use 6 springs, each for the pressur plate and slipper mechanism

So that will explain the softer easier to pull lever...

As for the friction materials differing, I seriously doubt that, it makes no difference to that material if it running on a hardened aluminum, or steel surface, the plate differences are in the thickness, and tab configurations for clearance and function, without measuring, and comparing them to the other plates, I cannot confirm, but unless you did the same when you had them in hand, and can say dimensionally they are the same, its all moot...

Anyways, we are on a subject of ZG1400 clutch, and I do thank you for making me go back thru all the microfiches files for comparing all these clutches, ...
I could have been mowing my yard.
 :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 07:29:30 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline rcannon409

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2017, 12:26:17 am »
I do remember those two plates being identical...that stenciled in number was different, but that's it. Ill dig through my parts....I may have been too big of a wuss to use them.   They would not work, on these new clutch pieces on the end positions....

So, logically I know it does not matter where I place these.It can't...but, what if it does? What if my clutch slips?  Easy enough to re-build the clutch, but that clutch gasket is 25.00. By this point, I've confirmed the new parts will fit.    I've given my parts list to everyone on the forum. Kawasaki had a 3 week back order on the clutch cover gaskets. With a 3 week wait, theres no way I'll be able to re-use the old gasket.

They were very close to the other, 2.6mm plates....not enough difference to identify them.

One part i was curious about ,and never got an answer about was the part they call a "spring steel".

Part number 13089-0024      Yamaha uses this Ninja/Versys 1000 assist/slipper clutch in its 2015-2017 r1.   However, when they build the clutch stack, they do not use this "spring steel".  Any idea what its point is, and why is it used?

For those who have not seen it, it looks like two metal clutch plates riveted together, but there must be some sort of "spring" action to them?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2017, 01:29:13 am »
-0024 plate assy is actually like a belleville washer, the plates act as a spring, they are "wavy", it assists in consistant preload and as an anti chatter device in the assembled stack...
All the friction plates in that stack should be identical also, so you are cofusing me about your comments on where different plates go in the MGF stack... they should all be -0568 frictions...all of them...
I think you may be confusing yourself, and us also...   so I'll stop trying on this one...

Ride safe

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Offline rcannon409

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2017, 12:44:17 pm »
I know what you are saying, and probably did not explain myself properly.

....When I switched to that newer style clutch, I did not buy all new plates....yes, the diagram did call for  ALL plates to be 2.3mm thick, in the new style clutch, but all of my 2.6mm plates were in perfect condition.

It would have been an extra @200.00 to do it as per the drawing...so, I mixed and matched some other 2.0mm plates to achieve the desired stack height. There was no way to land within the narrow stack height margin (45.6-46.4mm) and use my stock plates.  So, I ended up with different thickness plates in an attempt to save money. It felt like insanity to have to build to this narrow margin, but if it was too tall, or too short, even by .5mm, the clutch arm's range of motion was way off.

Two other parts were interesting as well.   If we go to this drawing....

http://www.mrcycles.com/oemparts/a/kaw/500b9043f8700223e479a1c1/clutch

92200 and 92144   Those went away on the newer assist/slipper clutch.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 12:53:16 pm by rcannon409 »

Offline Deepsea

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Re: 09 Concours 14 Clutch Slipping
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2017, 07:36:54 pm »
If you really want to understand the evolution of modern motorcycle clutches start with early 1970's British bikes (Norton, BSA etc.) then look at CZ, Husky and the Ducati dry clutch. Now move to the CB750 then the Z-1 and . Also look at various factory racing bikes of the same period including the custom Crower Glide lock-up clutches like I have in the LSR bike and that drag racers used in T/F class. Many of the differences are subtle but important. Slipper (Back torque limiting) clutches came about later but have made an important change in how we ride. There are many ways to skin this cat, some work better than others. You can skip most of the aftermarket ones, they were and are crap unless you're willing to spend big $$$.
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