Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Concours 14 / ZG1400 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: G Man on September 02, 2013, 06:37:37 pm

Title: 09 exhaust help
Post by: G Man on September 02, 2013, 06:37:37 pm
 I added a Two Brothers slip on to my 09 Connie.  The stock pipes look like crap and I wast to remove them and have them coated in black ceramic.  How difficult is it to remove the pipes?  Can't find the R  and R instructions in the shop manual. Can anybody give me the steps?  Also have a PC5 and K&N filter, should I do away with the catalytic converter?
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Cap'n Bob on September 02, 2013, 07:29:23 pm
If you want to do away with the Cat, why not spend the big bucks on a full exhaust system? I never fully removed my exhaust, so I can't give you step by step. But it seems pretty straight forward. Maybe moving the radiator out of the way for access to the header nuts. If you do remove or replace anything more in regards to the exhaust. You will need a different mapping in your PCV. There is the option of a CPU reflash as well.
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Bruiser on September 03, 2013, 01:05:16 am
I noticed that the collector under the bike took on a nasty reddish tint, so got a can of Rustoleum  High Temp black. The same stuff used to restore BBQ's. So, directly under the bike, I painted it black. 6000 miles later, it still looks great.
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: G Man on September 03, 2013, 03:16:38 am
I tried the exhaust paint, in fact three times, and it won't adhere. It bubbles up and flakes off. I have followed the prep instructions to the letter.  I got a quote from a local guy here in Charleston SC for $200.00 to put a ceramic finish on the stock pipes from the cylinders out to the Two Brothers slip on.   That makes it less than a completly new exhaust. I have seen his work and it's good. Just not sure if the removal of the pipes is outside my skill level. I would say I am an average mechanic. I am also not sure about the catalytic converter. Keep or remove.  There is a shop here that can re-tune
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Flat-spot on September 03, 2013, 06:58:57 am
Just a suggestion. Check out AreaPnolimits.com. Then call em on the phone. They will answer all your exhaust related questions. You already have the PC, with AreaP's full system (about $950) and the removal of your secondary intake butterflies, you could have about 160 RWHP. See dyno charts at fuelmotousa.com. They assembled and tuned this kit for the C14. Mine's ordered, gonna do it this winter. :motonoises: :great:
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 03, 2013, 11:46:54 am
I tried the exhaust paint, in fact three times, and it won't adhere. It bubbles up and flakes off. I have followed the prep instructions to the letter.  I got a quote from a local guy here in Charleston SC for $200.00 to put a ceramic finish on the stock pipes from the cylinders out to the Two Brothers slip on.   That makes it less than a completly new exhaust. I have seen his work and it's good. Just not sure if the removal of the pipes is outside my skill level. I would say I am an average mechanic. I am also not sure about the catalytic converter. Keep or remove.  There is a shop here that can re-tune

I'm a bit confused... first off, you wanna buy a bunch of stuff to modify the bike, but you say you aren't sure if you have the skill level to swap the headers and muffler...?

 :rotflmao:

Call me silly, but this is heading into an tailspin.

the cats are integral in the header pipe, to remove them they must be smashed into pieces inside there, and removed bit by bit.... they aren't made to be "removed" so to speak.

you need to seek out a mechanic locally, and hopefully find a trustworthy one, and pay to have this done if you do not have the level to accomplish this...
tossing a an aftermarket PC V is also not for the beginner.... it does take some knowledge to get that right. And as a lot of people will tell you, the simple job of even getting to the airfilter to replace it ain't all that simple.....
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Gabriel on September 03, 2013, 12:10:35 pm
Not sure why it would be necessary to modify the fuel mixture with an exhaust/fly mod. This is a closed loop system and unless it's on the ragged edge of correct mixture it should be OK, and after all this system seems to handle the fuel mix between negative and positive plenum pressures without any problems.
The only thing I experienced after removing the flies was an occasional slight off idle throttle stumble that is related to some fuel brands and I saw no difference in drivability after the slip-on install.
I may eventually install a fuel controller just to play with it, but it is not necessary at this point.
I also modified the throttle cable ramp (at the grip) to have a smaller uptake initially, this reduced the idle cut-off to on abruptness. :great:
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: G Man on September 03, 2013, 01:22:07 pm
Thanks for the replies. I guess I should give myself a little more credit. I am more mechanically inclined than I implied on my last post. To clarify, if it was worth it to get rid of the converter then I would get new pipes instead of trying to remove the converter from the stock pipe. My main objective is simply aesthetics. The stock pipe looks like crap and I am wondering what you think about ceramically coating the stock pipe verses powder coating
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: gPink on September 03, 2013, 01:25:33 pm
Powder coating won't stand the heat. If all you want to accomplish is aesthetics, add a slipon muffler and do nothing else.
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 03, 2013, 01:36:59 pm
ceramic coating drastically improves the heat issues, and if I was to do ceramics, I would want to do the internal coating also, as that really impacts the heat flow; unfortunately you would have to remove the cat sections for that, and as I noted it requires basically breaking it into pieces and trying to get those out. Not sure how the ceramics would bond internally after that.
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Gabriel on September 03, 2013, 01:45:59 pm
Thanks for the replies. I guess I should give myself a little more credit. I am more mechanically inclined than I implied on my last post. To clarify, if it was worth it to get rid of the converter then I would get new pipes instead of trying to remove the converter from the stock pipe. My main objective is simply aesthetics. The stock pipe looks like crap and I am wondering what you think about ceramically coating the stock pipe verses powder coating

In a nut shell;
Ceramic Coatings are polymer composites with insulating ceramics designed to significantly reduce heat transfer and saturation.
Power coat in no way matches the performance of ceramic coatings, plus some of their greatest benefits come from coating the inside of the pipe also, but the real plus here is a reduction in heat regardless of which surface you coat.
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Egodriver71 on September 03, 2013, 01:54:27 pm
This is a closed loop system and unless it's on the ragged edge of correct mixture it should be OK

US bikes are not closed loop.

There is NO O2 in a US bike, pure OPEN loop.


Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Gabriel on September 03, 2013, 02:23:16 pm

US bikes are not closed loop.
There is NO O2 in a US bike, pure OPEN loop.
[/quote]

I never looked at the bike but I remember seeing them in the Service manual;
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp75/gabriel1951/oxs_zps89b955c5.jpg)
Yep, there they are but your right, after looking at my 09 they are not there.
I just assumed they were there, :-[ sorry for the confusion. That makes this bike easier to manipulate.
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Glenn on September 03, 2013, 02:48:28 pm
I replaced the original exhaust, with duals, on my "12, using a ZX14 header, and without the cats.  I didn't find the job to be especially difficult, but I took my time, rather than rushing through to get it done (YMMV).  Most of the plastic, obviously, needs to come off, and I did remove the radiator.   I think you could make it work, if you disconnected the bottom of the radiator, and rotated it forward, but I didn't want to run the risk of damaging it, just to avoid taking it out.  The little crush gaskets for the header need to be replaced, and I would get some of the little plastic rivets, and other connectors that hold the plastic, as the sometime break when take them out.  I went to Ron Ayers site for those things, but it's not the only vendor.  As Bob said, if you were to make more significant changes, then you'll need different mapping, either through a PCV, or similar, or reflashing the ECU, usually through Guhl.  Personally, I recommend the latter, but you should do your research.  Oh, and I did find the book said to use inch lbs, instead of foot lbs, for torquing the nuts on the header.  It said something like 13 inch lbs, which is basically finger tight.  The books are not perfect.           
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: ZG on September 03, 2013, 03:06:53 pm
http://www.jet-hot.com/coatings/ (http://www.jet-hot.com/coatings/)

Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 03, 2013, 03:25:34 pm
.....

In a nut shell;
Ceramic Coatings are polymer composites with insulating ceramics ...

while my post just prior to yours did say the same about internal and external application effects,
the true ceramic coatings we are speaking of are a combination of metal powders and ceramics.... any polymer that exists in the "powder" is completely consumed after the application of the heat process used to create the "glazed" surface, and little if any polymer is even present in these initial materials... at least I can't find anything supporting this. please enlighten me about the material you speak of.

exhaust coatings differ from the cermet coatings applied to piston skirts, which DO contain some slippery elements of a polymer though.

per the link ZG was nice enough to supply;

"Is Jet-Hot a Powder Coat?

No, Jet-Hot coatings are ceramic or ceramic-metallic coatings that are sprayed on the part in a liquid medium. Powder coatings are electrostatically applied powders that are then melted together under lower heat conditions. Powder coating will not survive the high temperatures that Jet-Hot ceramic coatings will."
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Gabriel on September 03, 2013, 03:38:21 pm
.....

In a nut shell;
Ceramic Coatings are polymer composites with insulating ceramics ...

while my post just prior to yours did say the same about internal and external application effects,
the true ceramic coatings we are speaking of are a combination of metal powders and ceramics.... any polymer that exists in the "powder" is completely consumed after the application of the heat process used to create the "glazed" surface, and little if any polymer is even present in these initial materials... at least I can't find anything supporting this. please enlighten me about the material you speak of.

exhaust coatings differ from the cermet coatings applied to piston skirts, which DO contain some slippery elements of a polymer though.

Follow the Jet hot link provided  a couple of post up.

1) Performance

    Reduces under-hood temperatures
    Improves thermal efficiency of the engine system
    Maintains uniform temperature throughout the exhaust system
    Improves the performance of the heart of the vehicle
    Provides more useful horsepower by reducing the mass of the reciprocating components

2) Protection

    Keeps the engine compartment cooler
    Extends the life of neighboring components
    Improves thermal oxidation protection at higher temperatures
    Reduces parasitic drag losses
    Reduces the friction properties where lubricants are intended to stay
    Improves cooling efficiency and aids oil drain-back, where lubricants are intended to shed oil
    Reduces surface profiles using friction reduction fluoropolymers
    Provides protection up to 2,500F (Jet-Hot Extreme 2500 series)


Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 03, 2013, 04:02:46 pm
we have been discussing this very type of response thing in another thread verbatum, where someone reads a few words and takes it to gospel. and then posts it up as such.
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,45894.0.html (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,45894.0.html)

if you would have delved further in that website, you would find what I explained.
http://www.jet-hot.com/coatings/jet-hot-slick-coat/ (http://www.jet-hot.com/coatings/jet-hot-slick-coat/)

that product is the one that contains polymers....
just because it's on a list of "advantages" on the first page, doesn't mean all the ceramic coatings have that; and actually the polymer thing is a specific product.
it is not what is used on the exhaust pipes.
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: mattchewn on September 03, 2013, 04:27:56 pm
 :popcorncouple: :popcorncouple: :popcorncouple: :popcorncouple:
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Egodriver71 on September 03, 2013, 04:29:12 pm
This is a closed loop system and unless it's on the ragged edge of correct mixture it should be OK


US bikes are not closed loop.
There is NO O2 in a US bike, pure OPEN loop.


I never looked at the bike but I remember seeing them in the Service manual;
([url]http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp75/gabriel1951/oxs_zps89b955c5.jpg[/url])
Yep, there they are but your right, after looking at my 09 they are not there.
I just assumed they were there, :-[ sorry for the confusion. That makes this bike easier to manipulate.


EVERYONE else has O2 sensors except us.  I'm not really sure why though.
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Gabriel on September 03, 2013, 05:30:52 pm
we have been discussing this very type of response thing in another thread verbatum, where someone reads a few words and takes it to gospel. and then posts it up as such.
[url]http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,45894.0.html[/url] ([url]http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,45894.0.html[/url])

if you would have delved further in that website, you would find what I explained.
[url]http://www.jet-hot.com/coatings/jet-hot-slick-coat/[/url] ([url]http://www.jet-hot.com/coatings/jet-hot-slick-coat/[/url])

that product is the one that contains polymers....
just because it's on a list of "advantages" on the first page, doesn't mean all the ceramic coatings have that; and actually the polymer thing is a specific product.
it is not what is used on the exhaust pipes.


You can take it for what ever you like, I don't care! I'm not on the intermittent committee. You asked I pointed you along with others to a site where the manufacturer makes the above statements.
Jet Hot is one of the if not the original provider of this product.
Call them and tell them your not happy with their explanation and you would like a free education.
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 03, 2013, 06:36:57 pm
I'm dOnE... nOw y tElL mE you POSTED THE LINK... :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

and clearly never read the one about the piston skirt coating.


ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

(http://newsalescoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/shoot-yourself-in-the-foot1.jpg)(http://static4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Stick+a+fork+in+me+Jerry+I+m+done...+Have+this+_afa5af8ca2ad6cbcd6db75cb6f97ba65.gif)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR550Bt2A2NQ-BbEpDwpBNPr2Vq4IzeqwMRQ44dce5UvwniK9wcmg)(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/780189440/h64824BFA/)
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Gabriel on September 03, 2013, 06:57:08 pm
ZG posted the link!
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: ZG on September 04, 2013, 01:20:23 am
ZG posted the link!

 ;D :beerchug:

Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 04, 2013, 02:21:44 am
ZG posted the link!

 ;D :beerchug:
Yep, you did post it, and I went and looked.... and made my post, and thanked you in that post......went right over someones head tho,  so ZG do think ceramic coating on headers contains polymers? Or simply aluminum powder and a ceramic slurry suspended in a liquid that evaporates off during the bake process? Just asking..... :))
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: ZG on September 04, 2013, 03:15:51 am
ZG posted the link!

 ;D :beerchug:
Yep, you did post it, and I went and looked.... and made my post, and thanked you in that post......went right over someones head tho,  so ZG do think ceramic coating on headers contains polymers? Or simply aluminum powder and a ceramic slurry suspended in a liquid that evaporates off during the bake process? Just asking..... :))

I haven't used them myself Rich, but I've been debating about it for awhile now, just posted the link cause I thought it was what the op was looking for. I know guys on the Gixxer forum that have sent stuff to them and been very happy with the results.

Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: Bruiser on September 04, 2013, 03:56:39 am
G, I have a dumb question...did you spray it on while the exhaust was hot??  Do it cold, no prep is necessary.  Just lay on your side, rattle can that sucker, let it dry and problem solved...a nice blacked out exhaust header, that doesn't stand out when the bike is on its sidestand.  And with the slipon carbon Delkovic, the look is pretty nice.
Title: Re: 09 exhaust help
Post by: G Man on September 23, 2013, 02:43:41 pm
Outstanding replies to my post.  I appreciate all your comments and info.  I built my own "soda blaster" to prep my pipes once I get them off.  I am not planning to remove the Catalytic Converter  so I plan to only have the outside of the pipes from the cylinders to the Two Brothers Carbon Fiber slip-on coated in black ceramic.  Thanks for the link for the body fasteners.  I know I will need some of those through this process.  I will let you all know how it goes with pictures of the final product.  Thanks