Author Topic: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions  (Read 6967 times)

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Offline Scott Bechler

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09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« on: June 12, 2012, 01:35:13 pm »
I didn't find this in any searches. I would think it had been discussed before unless I just can't read. The manual says with cyl 1 at the end of the compression stroke adjust int. & exhaust on cyl 4. Cylinder 4 would be TDC at the end of the exh stroke on valve overlap with both int, & exh. partially open. It would make sense to adjust the valve opposite of what the manual states. Any comments?

Scott

Offline Bakerman

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2012, 06:18:15 pm »
I'm in the middle of trying to do this myself and I noticed the same thing as you.  I was always taught that you take your measurement on each individual cylinder with that cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke.  The manual says:

"When positioning #1 piston at TDC at the end of the compression stroke:
   Inlet Valve clearance of #2 and #4 Cylinders
   Exhaust Valve Clearance of #3 and #4 Cylinders"

"When positioning #4 piston at TDC at the end of the compression stroke:
   Inlet Valve clearance of #1 and #3 Cylinders
   Exhaust Valve Clearance of #1 and #2 Cylinders"

Are those of you that have adjusted your valves measuring in the manner that the manual states or are you putting each cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke and then measuring that cylinder only?

The method in the manual just seems bizarre and wrong.

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2012, 06:28:11 pm »
As long as the ramp for the cam lob is not against the bucket, and it positioned anywhere on the heel of the lobe, I don't think it will make much difference, since the entire heel of the lobe is round. The way it's done in the manual is probably just to save time.

But if you're curious, try checking them both ways and post your results. I suspect you won't find much difference. The old C10 manual has you do it the same way, and several other bikes I've seen do it this way as well.
Fred H.


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Offline Bakerman

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2012, 07:14:02 pm »
Thanks Fred.  I think doing each cylinder individually is the way to go.  When I tried the method listed in the service manual I found that some of the ones it said to measure were being depressed by the cam lobe.  Sure ain't gonna get any clearance that way!   ;)   Some you could get the feeler gauge in there but had go in from either the rear of the intake cam or the front of the exhaust cam.  It's much easier to set each one to TDC and go in between the cams.

I'm at just under 16K miles and found that they were all in spec.  Cool, I didn't really want to have to pull the cams out anyway.

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2012, 07:32:31 pm »
When I tried the method listed in the service manual I found that some of the ones it said to measure were being depressed by the cam lobe. 

Something is wrong then. There shouldn't be any pressure on the ones you are checking if the engine is in the proper position.
Fred H.


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Offline Bakerman

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2012, 08:02:55 pm »
Yes, that's why I made my measurements with each individual cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke instead of using the service manual method.  This way I can be certain I am measuring properly.  I think the service manual writer goofed. :-[

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2012, 10:34:18 am »
Yes, that's why I made my measurements with each individual cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke instead of using the service manual method.  This way I can be certain I am measuring properly.  I think the service manual writer goofed. :-[

You must have either had the engine in the wrong position, or you were checking the wrong valves. I've done it the way the service manual says to, and it does work.
Fred H.


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Offline Bakerman

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2012, 12:45:33 pm »
  The manual says:

"When positioning #1 piston at TDC at the end of the compression stroke:
   Inlet Valve clearance of #2 and #4 Cylinders
   Exhaust Valve Clearance of #3 and #4 Cylinders"

"When positioning #4 piston at TDC at the end of the compression stroke:
   Inlet Valve clearance of #1 and #3 Cylinders
   Exhaust Valve Clearance of #1 and #2 Cylinders"


If you notice what the manual says above, when at TDC on the compression stroke on cylinder 1, it doesn't even tell you to check any of the valves on cylinder 1.  When at TDC on the compression stroke on cylinder 4 they don't tell you to check any of the valve on cylinder 4.

When cylinder 1 is at TDC on the compression stroke, cylinder 4 is on valve overlap stroke.  And vice versus.  The manual is telling you to measure clearance on the valve overlap stroke instead of the compression stroke.  I think they have it exactly backwards.

Doesn't that make sense?

Offline oldnslo_MO

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2012, 01:03:43 pm »
Yes, that's why I made my measurements with each individual cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke instead of using the service manual method.  This way I can be certain I am measuring properly.  I think the service manual writer goofed. :-[

You must have either had the engine in the wrong position, or you were checking the wrong valves. I've done it the way the service manual says to, and it does work.
          Me too,although I used the dreaded Hotcams shims. been workin great for 66K... :beerchug:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
happy trails  2016 concours14,2010 bmw k1300ggt, 2015 bmw r1200rt, 09 concours14, 75 kawasaki H1   500cc*79 triumph bonneville750* 2 each  82su zuki gs1100e* 05 yamaha fz1 1100* 03 yamaha fz1 1100*01 goldwing 1800*97 goldwing 1500* 93 goldwing 1500* 80 kawasaki vulcan 1500*76 kawasaki kz650* 66 triumph Bonneville 650* 68 triumph tr 650* 72 norton commando750* 70 bsa rocket III 750*  68 hon cb350* 66 hon cb305*1960 BSA golden flash 500cc*1950 cushman

Offline Bergmen

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2012, 01:59:29 pm »
  The manual says:

"When positioning #1 piston at TDC at the end of the compression stroke:
   Inlet Valve clearance of #2 and #4 Cylinders
   Exhaust Valve Clearance of #3 and #4 Cylinders"

"When positioning #4 piston at TDC at the end of the compression stroke:
   Inlet Valve clearance of #1 and #3 Cylinders
   Exhaust Valve Clearance of #1 and #2 Cylinders"


If you notice what the manual says above, when at TDC on the compression stroke on cylinder 1, it doesn't even tell you to check any of the valves on cylinder 1.  When at TDC on the compression stroke on cylinder 4 they don't tell you to check any of the valve on cylinder 4.

When cylinder 1 is at TDC on the compression stroke, cylinder 4 is on valve overlap stroke.  And vice versus.  The manual is telling you to measure clearance on the valve overlap stroke instead of the compression stroke.  I think they have it exactly backwards.

Doesn't that make sense?

It certainly does and I completely agree with you. It is bass ackwards in the manual if this is how it is stated. This might work on a flat-head four in a 1942 Jeep but not an engine with the performance of the Concours 14.

I always go cylinder-to-cylinder, TDC compression (or close, does not have to be spot-on) even if it is a V-8 with 4 valves per.

Dan
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2012, 02:31:04 pm »
Now I'm starting to get cornfused too. I need to have the valve cover off and the head in front of me to take a look at this again myself. I'll ask Kawasaki for a reading on this and see what they say.

Its been quite a while since I did mine, but I believe I did it by the book and everything went fine.
Fred H.


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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2012, 02:43:40 pm »
Closer examination of the drawing in the service manual shows an A in the non-darkened circle for the valves that you are supposed to check, but it doesn't agree with the wording to the left. If I am interpreting the drawing correctly and the non darkened circles are the ones they mean for you to check, then I think the drawing is correct, but the wording is wrong that goes with it is wrong.

Furthermore, if you position the cams with the marks like they show, and then reference the position, I think you may find that with the IN and EX marks pointing out, that it actually has the engine position at #4 TDC of compression, not #1.

I'll see if I can get Kawasaki to respond and clear this up so I don't have to tear my bike apart again just to confirm this.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 02:47:40 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
Fred H.


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Offline Bergmen

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2012, 03:15:16 pm »
The drawing to the right appears correct as you say:



but the descriptions under each heading need to be swapped.

Also, what is that goofy sketch at the upper left corner of each drawing?

Dan
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Offline Bakerman

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2012, 03:19:09 pm »
Fred, don't you dare tear your bike apart to confirm this!   :))

Man, that's waaaaay too much work to answer a simple question.   :)

I was reconciling what the text says with the diagram.  The text says to adjust the valves with the darkened circles.  I think it's the exact opposite.  I think you are correct in that the diagram is correct (adjust non-darkened ones) but the wording is wrong.

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2012, 03:24:42 pm »
The goofy drawing at the left shows the marks on the right side end of the cam shafts, and I believe they are correct. The first drawing actually shows the cams with cylinder #4 at TDC of compression stroke (not #1).  So in the first section of text, if you simply changed Cylinder #1 TDC to say Cylinder #4 TDC I think everything would be correct, IF you are meant to check valves that are colored in black.
Fred H.


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Offline Bergmen

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2012, 03:26:29 pm »
Fixed it:



Dan
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Offline Scott Bechler

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2012, 03:30:04 pm »
The wording is definitely wrong. That was my point. The firing order is 1-2-4-3. So if #1 is at TDC comp., #2 is BDC intake. Intake closes ABDC so therefore you could not check the intake clearance on them as the manual says. Also #4 is at TDC exhaust with both the intake & exhaust open and the manual says to check both in this position. As far as the diagram goes, the shaded circle is the valve it tells you to measure (shaded circle = circled letter A). As was already stated. The manual is BASS ACKWARDS.

Scott


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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 03:31:03 pm »
They show the timing marks on each camshaft. The upper drawing shows the cam timing marks facing away from each other. After a full turn of the crankshaft, the cam timing marks would then be facing each other, as shown in the lower photo.

Not sure about the original question but if you position the engine as shown in those drawings and check the valve lash, it will work correctly. Each valve indicated by a black circle will be on the heel or backside of the camshaft when the engine is in the recommended position. Notice how cylinders 2 and 3 check the exhaust and intake valves while the engine is in two different positions? That is the compensatory part of only having to place the engine in two positions to check all 16 valves.

Brian


The drawing to the right appears correct as you say:



but the descriptions under each heading need to be swapped.

Also, what is that goofy sketch at the upper left corner of each drawing?

Dan
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Offline BDF

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 03:35:42 pm »
Yep, you are right. The text on the left side is in the wrong place in reference to the drawings on the right. If they were swapped so that the bottom instructions went with the top drawing and vice- versa, it would be correct.

I would just suggest everyone ignore the text and go by the drawing- place the engine in the position indicated in each drawing respectively and measure the valve lash on the black valves that goes with the engine position of that specific drawing.

Brian

The wording is definitely wrong. That was my point. The firing order is 1-2-4-3. So if #1 is at TDC comp., #2 is BDC intake. Intake closes ABDC so therefore you could not check the intake clearance on them as the manual says. Also #4 is at TDC exhaust with both the intake & exhaust open and the manual says to check both in this position. As far as the diagram goes, the shaded circle is the valve it tells you to measure (shaded circle = circled letter A). As was already stated. The manual is BASS ACKWARDS.

Scott
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 03:44:35 pm »
I would just suggest everyone ignore the text and go by the drawing- place the engine in the position indicated in each drawing respectively and measure the valve lash on the black valves that goes with the engine position of that specific drawing.
Brian

Thanks Brian, yes that is how I did mine, and it worked fine, which is why I was originally confused, as the drawing in the manual seems correct for the black valves, it's just the text that is incorrect.
Fred H.


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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 03:51:18 pm »
I believe this is all that needs to be done to make it correct. Notice I swapped the #1 and #4 in the top line of the text. With the cams positioned as shown in the top drawing, the engine is really in the #4 TDC end of compression stroke position.

The text and the drawings now match up correctly.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 03:52:49 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2012, 04:02:07 pm »
By the way, thanks for bringing this to our attention Scott. I'm going to suggest to Kawasaki that they amend the manual.
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2012, 04:50:53 pm »
I believe this is all that needs to be done to make it correct. Notice I swapped the #1 and #4 in the top line of the text. With the cams positioned as shown in the top drawing, the engine is really in the #4 TDC end of compression stroke position.

The text and the drawings now match up correctly.




Fred, that's still not correct (at least how I am interpreting the drawing). The instructions indicate "Measuring Valve [A]", drawing shows "A" in a circle that is clear, the inference is not to check those valves that are darkened.

If you look at my "Fixed it" post, that is the way it should be explained and shown (just replace the "goofy sketch" showing the cam timing marks and you're good to go).

Dan
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2012, 05:21:23 pm »

Fred, that's still not correct (at least how I am interpreting the drawing). The instructions indicate "Measuring Valve [A]", drawing shows "A" in a circle that is clear, the inference is not to check those valves that are darkened.

If you look at my "Fixed it" post, that is the way it should be explained and shown (just replace the "goofy sketch" showing the cam timing marks and you're good to go).

Dan

Dan,

I'm pretty sure they are referencing the darkened valves. The circle with the A in it is shown as a reference designator to the dark colored valve next to it. They intend for you to adjust the valves that are darkened. If you look at the other reference designators in the drawing, you'll see they use a letter in a circle. The circle with the A in it doesn't represent a valve, but is used as the A reference designator and then shows a darkened valve next to it.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 05:23:59 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: 09 Service Manual Valve Clearance instructions
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2012, 05:40:09 pm »
Oh, now I get it. Man, that is confusing (at least to me but that isn't saying much).

Dan
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