Author Topic: 2nd gear vanished (Read 1717 times)

Doden · « **on:** May 09, 2019, 12:24:58 am »

Riding to work last night. I took off from stoplight. Shifted from 1st to 2nd gear. Thought I hit neutral. It was in 2nd gear. Shifted up again and was in 3rd gear. All gears work correctly except 2nd gear. It seems to have vanished from gearbox. Anyone know what could cause this. Thanks for any help. 2013 Concours.

Freddy · « **Reply #1 on:** May 09, 2019, 12:56:10 am »

What does the display show when making those gears changes?

Doden · « **Reply #2 on:** May 09, 2019, 01:28:06 am »

Display shows properly. 1st. 2nd. Nothing there 3rd.

Freddy · « **Reply #3 on:** May 09, 2019, 08:58:57 am »

No unusual noises I suppose?

ghostrider990 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 09, 2019, 10:14:45 am »

So, what happened AFTER that??

Did it drive normally?? Was it JUST that once, or is 2nd gear gone?

Sounds like a "false neutral to me.....or a False Second.

gr

Freddy · « **Reply #5 on:** May 09, 2019, 10:46:06 am »

..........and is it still misbehaving? If so, no 2nd gear at all, or..........?

Bumblebee · « **Reply #6 on:** May 09, 2019, 11:05:38 am »

Before you do anything drastic, try replacing the clutch fluid and bleeding the line.

Doden · « **Reply #7 on:** May 09, 2019, 01:47:47 pm »

2nd gear is gone. I now have two neutrals. I can not find anything about this problem anywhere. I did make it home at least story has a bright side.

Gsled · « **Reply #8 on:** May 09, 2019, 03:45:40 pm »

Personally I would not ride it. Drain the oil and look for metal debris in oil and filter. You don't want metal particles circulating through the engine. If you find metal particles it's probably trans time. Sorry

Doden · « **Reply #9 on:** May 09, 2019, 06:42:25 pm »

Thanks it's parked. It's supposed to be 85 this weekend. We don't get alot of those in Washington. Thanks for your help.

KnoxSwift · « **Reply #10 on:** May 09, 2019, 07:24:42 pm »

X2 on Gsled comment...see if the gear exploded?

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #11 on:** May 09, 2019, 07:36:09 pm »

Quote from: KnoxSwift on May 09, 2019, 07:24:42 pm

X2 on Gsled comment...see if the gear exploded?

If a gear "exploded", you would know it... that's for sure.... I'm thinking the shifting "drum", and mechanism/star wheel/actuator/etc has an issue, broken spring, missing "pin", came apart, etc.... or one of the shift forks got hosed... maybe from shifting under power without using a clutch?

Quote from: Gsled on May 09, 2019, 03:45:40 pm

Personally I would not ride it. Drain the oil and look for metal debris in oil and filter. You don't want metal particles circulating through the engine. If you find metal particles it's probably trans time. Sorry

That sounds reasonable, but in reality the oil pump/pickup/system has a pre-screen down in the sump, to prevent that from actually migrating any where further than the sump... but, broken parts 'can' migrate around in the tranny... and possibly lock up another gear, or two...

My best conclusion may be adjusting the external shifting lever, as often people do adjust them when they do peg changes or other things (to accomodate bigger feet/boots etc.,)..... this adjustment ends up as a partial shift, especially first to second, and it's called a "short shift"... always creates this very symptom...
so before going into panic mode... maybe address that external shifter lever linkage..... it's free....

Freddy · « **Reply #12 on:** May 10, 2019, 12:24:30 am »

Quote from: MAN OF BLUES on May 09, 2019, 07:36:09 pm

Quote from: KnoxSwift on May 09, 2019, 07:24:42 pm
X2 on Gsled comment...see if the gear exploded?

If a gear "exploded", you would know it... that's for sure.... I'm thinking the shifting "drum", and mechanism/star wheel/actuator/etc has an issue, broken spring, missing "pin", came apart, etc.... or one of the shift forks got hosed... maybe from shifting under power without using a clutch?

Quote from: Gsled on May 09, 2019, 03:45:40 pm
Personally I would not ride it. Drain the oil and look for metal debris in oil and filter. You don't want metal particles circulating through the engine. If you find metal particles it's probably trans time. Sorry

That sounds reasonable, but in reality the oil pump/pickup/system has a pre-screen down in the sump, to prevent that from actually migrating any where further than the sump... but, broken parts 'can' migrate around in the tranny... and possibly lock up another gear, or two...

My best conclusion may be adjusting the external shifting lever, as often people do adjust them when they do peg changes or other things (to accomodate bigger feet/boots etc.,)..... this adjustment ends up as a partial shift, especially first to second, and it's called a "short shift"... always creates this very symptom...
so before going into panic mode... maybe address that external shifter lever linkage..... it's free....

As MOB says, gears don't explode without a lot of noise. They don't actually 'explode' but may break a tooth off as was the case with my 2009 when I bought it a couple of years ago, which was a very noisy. As yours makes no noise, do as he suggests by removing the clutch cover and examining the shift mechanism. If there was a problem with another gear it would point to a shift fork issue as the 3 forks changes 2 gears each, so I'd say it's not a transmission problem as such, rather the mechanism behind the clutch assembly.

Grant · « **Reply #13 on:** May 10, 2019, 02:12:50 am »

There is only two possibilities. 1. The teeth on the second gear side of that particular slider have sheared off clean and that is highly unlikely. 2. Much more likely a malfunction with the shift fork drum. There is nothing that could happen within the clutch that would affect only one gear.

Sergei · « **Reply #14 on:** May 10, 2019, 10:29:25 am »

I owned a GSXR1100 that lost its 2nd gear. It was the shift fork.

Freddy · « **Reply #15 on:** May 10, 2019, 11:08:42 am »

That is a 5 speed apparently. As the C14 is a 6 speed it's unlikely to be a shift fork IMO - but I was wrong once before.

MtnRider · « **Reply #16 on:** May 10, 2019, 06:05:14 pm »

Huh, Freddy?

Don't know jack about transmission innards. Why yes on a 5 speed and probably a no on a 6 speed?

Thanks.

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #17 on:** May 10, 2019, 06:56:15 pm »

As I suggested, examine the physical point the shifter lever is attached to the shaft, and verify the punch marks line up, as in the picture below, this part is easy, and external...

then, verify the "angle" of the lever mechanism is at 90*, noted by the point B in the second photo...

Finally, if this has been verified, the next step is to remove the clutch cover, and the complete clutch pack, to access the "external" shifting "star/actuator/fork" mounted on the end of the shift shaft... as seen in the third picture...
this has been known to have a couple issues in the past. Broken springs, bolt backed out, locating dowel pin behind sheared, and loosened "stud" that holds spring... any of which could be the cause of an "incomplete" shift, or "false neutral"...

OK... edit to add;
after looking closely at the other thing you said...

Quote from: Doden on May 09, 2019, 01:28:06 am

Display shows properly. 1st. 2nd. Nothing there 3rd.

I'm asking you to clarify a bit... first and third show up on display? and second does not? or am I missing something...

I ask, as the electrical contact to send the signal to the gear "location" switch, is actually made by 2 pins, located on the end of the actual shifting drum... so a lack of "complete" rotation on the drum, to the "next" gear, as would occur from what I noted about the star mechanism and associated fork/lever, would in fact "short shift" and the sensor would show nothing in second gear.. also... what happens is in the "short shift", the drive gear does not fully engage second gear, stops short, then when shifting to third it will go into third.. I say look again at the lever, then follow up with the mechanism behind the clutch basket that rotates the physical shift drum.
hope that helps a bit... it's in section 9-37 of the FSM for your model year.

Freddy · « **Reply #18 on:** May 10, 2019, 11:03:17 pm »

Quote from: MtnRider on May 10, 2019, 06:05:14 pm

Huh, Freddy?

Don't know jack about transmission innards. Why yes on a 5 speed and probably a no on a 6 speed?

Thanks.

As I said above, 3 forks shift 2 gears each. If a fork was the issue in one gear it would also be an issue in the corresponding gear.

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #19 on:** May 10, 2019, 11:25:02 pm »

Quote from: Freddy on May 10, 2019, 11:03:17 pm

Quote from: MtnRider on May 10, 2019, 06:05:14 pm
Huh, Freddy?

Don't know jack about transmission innards. Why yes on a 5 speed and probably a no on a 6 speed?

Thanks.

As I said above, 3 forks shift 2 gears each. If a fork was the issue in one gear it would also be an issue in the corresponding gear.

yeah, with the 3 forks, depending on which are being driven by the drum, pretty much so, but all 3 are not always being "moved" all the time (i.e., per shift).. but yeah, I do agree.. and bent forks (which I HAVE seen a lot of, usually only work in one direction, and stuff tends to "pop out of gear", creating loud noises also..

If you maybe have a photo of that shift drum, in your collection, and can show it, it may clarify what I kinda said already about that, and why he isn't getting a dash indicator showing his 'gear'... I know you get what I was saying, as you had to do 'surgery'...

Freddy · « **Reply #20 on:** May 11, 2019, 03:40:46 am »

The pic shows the 3 forks - 2 of em in mid air as they engage on the counter shaft in the top pic above while the 3rd fork is the middle one, engaged on the clutch shaft gear set below. If you look closely you can see the drum (rather dark) located between the clutch shaft gear set and the fork shaft (partially, right at the top of pic) on which 2 forks slide left & right; the middle fork slides on the shaft which you can see partially, immediately above the third gear from the left.

As you suggest MOB, if the external gear linkage is good, I suspect the problem to be in the drum shift mechanism as shown in your 3rd pic. (I've seen that on a Triumph 1050Tiger 6 speed which has the same arrangement.)

connie_rider · « **Reply #21 on:** May 11, 2019, 02:36:10 pm »

I'm also thinking external linkage or mechanism at the end of the shift drum.
Bent shift fork or other would tend to be more noisy, than just "nothing"..

Ride safe, Ted

Doden · « **Reply #22 on:** May 12, 2019, 01:26:03 am »

2nd shows up in display. Everything on the motorcycle acts normal. The only thing happening is 2nd gear acts like a 2nd neutral Also I don't know if this has anything to do with the gear problem. My fob battery was d ad. I replaced it with new ones. I tried two different brand new batteries in it. They both tested good. I don't know if that c an be or not.

Freddy · « **Reply #23 on:** May 12, 2019, 01:47:06 am »

Fobs, dead or alive, will have no bearing on the problem.

It's easy to remove the gear position sensor from the left side of the transmission case. It has 2 contacts on the end of the shift drum. It may be worth doing this to check if the shift drum is actually turning as it should between the 1-N-2-3 gears.

With the switch removed and the bike in neutral (as shown on the dash display before you remove the switch obviously) and on the centre stand, take a pic of the drum; put it into 1st gear, take another pic; put it back into neutral (the drum should be in the same position as before); put it into second - 1 lift of the lever while rotating the rear wheel, take a pic; repeat procedure for remaining gears.

Does the shift drum have 7 distinct positions (6 + neutral)?

Put it back to 1st gear, then up 1 for neutral, refit switch and report back.

C. Moore · « **Reply #24 on:** May 13, 2019, 10:17:03 am »

I agree with Freddy. Losing 2nd gear with no noise doesn't make sense to me. I had the transmission miss a shift once on my C10 and it sounded like the gears were exploding. I was able to downshift and get things back in sync with no further trouble. When I moved to the C14 the gear display wasn't reading right when I first acquired it. I cleaned things up including the gear position sensor and it started reading right. Good luck.

Quote from: Freddy on May 12, 2019, 01:47:06 am

Fobs, dead or alive, will have no bearing on the problem.

It's easy to remove the gear position sensor from the left side of the transmission case. It has 2 contacts on the end of the shift drum. It may be worth doing this to check if the shift drum is actually turning as it should between the 1-N-2-3 gears.

With the switch removed and the bike in neutral (as shown on the dash display before you remove the switch obviously) and on the centre stand, take a pic of the drum; put it into 1st gear, take another pic; put it back into neutral (the drum should be in the same position as before); put it into second - 1 lift of the lever while rotating the rear wheel, take a pic; repeat procedure for remaining gears.

Does the shift drum have 7 distinct positions (6 + neutral)?

Put it back to 1st gear, then up 1 for neutral, refit switch and report back.