Author Topic: ABS failure due to fluid  (Read 19050 times)

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Offline mattchewn

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #100 on: March 12, 2017, 12:31:23 am »
Correction:

Stabbing the rear brakes will activate the ABS for the REAR ONLY. This will not activate the ABS for the front unless you are on a surface (ice), that using only the rear brake causes the front wheel to lock up or come close to locking up. This is how these systems are designed. The system will only work the wheel or wheels that are ACTIVELY experiencing lockup. On dry pavement with decent tires you will have to make a PANIC stop to activate the front ABS. Most people would think twice before grabbing the front brake that hard on a bike. I do every time I practice it. One thing that helped was being able to lock the front wheel on my KLR and not crash, through practice.
While on the track at 140 MPH I had to grab all the brakes my 2012 C14 had in order to make turn 1. This meant pulling the lever to the handlebar and standing on the foot pedal as hard as I could. That will activate the ABS front and rear! 
Matt

I think I will stick to the gravel lot  ;)

140 on a gravel lot?  You got 'stones bro!   :-\

Matt
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2011 GSX1250 FA
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Offline Conrad

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2017, 12:37:27 pm »
Correction:

Stabbing the rear brakes will activate the ABS for the REAR ONLY. This will not activate the ABS for the front unless you are on a surface (ice), that using only the rear brake causes the front wheel to lock up or come close to locking up. This is how these systems are designed. The system will only work the wheel or wheels that are ACTIVELY experiencing lockup. On dry pavement with decent tires you will have to make a PANIC stop to activate the front ABS. Most people would think twice before grabbing the front brake that hard on a bike. I do every time I practice it. One thing that helped was being able to lock the front wheel on my KLR and not crash, through practice.
While on the track at 140 MPH I had to grab all the brakes my 2012 C14 had in order to make turn 1. This meant pulling the lever to the handlebar and standing on the foot pedal as hard as I could. That will activate the ABS front and rear! 
Matt

A correction to your correction.

The bolded section above is only applicable to bikes with linked brakes.
2008 C-14 ABS
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2017, 04:26:10 pm »
Correction:

Stabbing the rear brakes will activate the ABS for the REAR ONLY. This will not activate the ABS for the front unless you are on a surface (ice), that using only the rear brake causes the front wheel to lock up or come close to locking up. This is how these systems are designed. The ABS system will only work the wheel or wheels that are ACTIVELY experiencing lockup linked system or not is irrelevant. On dry pavement with decent tires you will have to make a PANIC stop to activate the front ABS. Most people would think twice before grabbing the front brake that hard on a bike. I do every time I practice it. One thing that helped was being able to lock the front wheel on my KLR and not crash, through practice.
While on the track at 140 MPH I had to grab all the brakes my 2012 C14 had in order to make turn 1. This meant pulling the lever to the handlebar and standing on the foot pedal as hard as I could. That will activate the ABS front and rear! 
Matt

A correction to your correction.

The bolded section above is only applicable to bikes with linked brakes.
Correction to the correction to the correction. Now we got it straight!
Matt
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Offline SteveJ.

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2017, 05:00:25 pm »
Correction:

Stabbing the rear brakes will activate the ABS for the REAR ONLY. This will not activate the ABS for the front unless you are on a surface (ice), that using only the rear brake causes the front wheel to lock up or come close to locking up. This is how these systems are designed. The system will only work the wheel or wheels that are ACTIVELY experiencing lockup. On dry pavement with decent tires you will have to make a PANIC stop to activate the front ABS. Most people would think twice before grabbing the front brake that hard on a bike. I do every time I practice it. One thing that helped was being able to lock the front wheel on my KLR and not crash, through practice.
While on the track at 140 MPH I had to grab all the brakes my 2012 C14 had in order to make turn 1. This meant pulling the lever to the handlebar and standing on the foot pedal as hard as I could. That will activate the ABS front and rear! 
Matt

A correction to your correction.

The bolded section above is only applicable to bikes with linked brakes.

My brain hurts. I have a 650 Versys with unlinked ABS. I A$$UME I should be activating the front and rear ABS separately, correct?
Yeah, if you want true ram air tuning, you better be willing to ram some air! (SiSF)
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #104 on: March 12, 2017, 05:49:11 pm »
Correction:

Stabbing the rear brakes will activate the ABS for the REAR ONLY. This will not activate the ABS for the front unless you are on a surface (ice), that using only the rear brake causes the front wheel to lock up or come close to locking up. This is how these systems are designed. The system will only work the wheel or wheels that are ACTIVELY experiencing lockup. On dry pavement with decent tires you will have to make a PANIC stop to activate the front ABS. Most people would think twice before grabbing the front brake that hard on a bike. I do every time I practice it. One thing that helped was being able to lock the front wheel on my KLR and not crash, through practice.
While on the track at 140 MPH I had to grab all the brakes my 2012 C14 had in order to make turn 1. This meant pulling the lever to the handlebar and standing on the foot pedal as hard as I could. That will activate the ABS front and rear! 
Matt

A correction to your correction.

The bolded section above is only applicable to bikes with linked brakes.

My brain hurts. I have a 650 Versys with unlinked ABS. I A$$UME I should be activating the front and rear ABS separately, correct?
Now you got it!   YES!
Matt
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Offline SteveJ.

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2017, 06:07:26 pm »
Correction:

Stabbing the rear brakes will activate the ABS for the REAR ONLY. This will not activate the ABS for the front unless you are on a surface (ice), that using only the rear brake causes the front wheel to lock up or come close to locking up. This is how these systems are designed. The system will only work the wheel or wheels that are ACTIVELY experiencing lockup. On dry pavement with decent tires you will have to make a PANIC stop to activate the front ABS. Most people would think twice before grabbing the front brake that hard on a bike. I do every time I practice it. One thing that helped was being able to lock the front wheel on my KLR and not crash, through practice.
While on the track at 140 MPH I had to grab all the brakes my 2012 C14 had in order to make turn 1. This meant pulling the lever to the handlebar and standing on the foot pedal as hard as I could. That will activate the ABS front and rear! 
Matt

A correction to your correction.

The bolded section above is only applicable to bikes with linked brakes.

My brain hurts. I have a 650 Versys with unlinked ABS. I A$$UME I should be activating the front and rear ABS separately, correct?
Now you got it!   YES!
Matt

Thanks Matt. See ya in Fellsmere.
Yeah, if you want true ram air tuning, you better be willing to ram some air! (SiSF)
Tick Tock, baby (Ironbuttal)
Steve J  Tavares, FL, one of the Floriduh Steves
'15 Versys650LT, '98 KLR650, (back home), '99 C-10, 234k miles sold

Offline gpd323

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2017, 07:18:40 pm »
But is not the ABS pump failures all related to the rear only? Affecting the rear brake only?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 11:17:56 pm by gpd323 »
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Offline TimB_PA

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2017, 07:41:06 pm »
Brake fluid on these bikes needs changed initially at 1 year or 12k miles. After that 2years and/or 15k is fine. If you aren't following this schedule, you will experience ABS failures. For the record the brakes on the C14 are not working very hard even accounting for the bikes capabilities. However even the best maintained and closed system is going to become contaminated due to the heat/cool cycle which produces condensation. This same contamination issue occurs with hydro clutches as well.
I am sort of surprised to see someone posting that the C14 uses dot fluid in the clutch? Many manufacturers have gone to veg oil as it's virtually impervious to moisture contamination. I'll have to look in my book.

Offline Freddy

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2017, 10:32:10 pm »
But is not the ABS failures all related to the rear only? Affecting the rear brake only?

Reportedly.  No-one's lived to report brake failure on the front.
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Offline seagiant1

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2017, 10:45:44 pm »
Brake fluid on these bikes needs changed initially at 1 year or 12k miles. After that 2years and/or 15k is fine. If you aren't following this schedule, you will experience ABS failures. For the record the brakes on the C14 are not working very hard even accounting for the bikes capabilities. However even the best maintained and closed system is going to become contaminated due to the heat/cool cycle which produces condensation. This same contamination issue occurs with hydro clutches as well.
I am sort of surprised to see someone posting that the C14 uses dot fluid in the clutch? Many manufacturers have gone to veg oil as it's virtually impervious to moisture contamination. I'll have to look in my book.

Hi,
        NEVER, heard of that one??? :o

But I don't get around much!!! ;D
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2017, 11:22:12 pm »
 :-\ :rotflmao: ::)

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Offline flashback50

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #111 on: March 13, 2017, 12:44:20 pm »
Correction:

Stabbing the rear brakes will activate the ABS for the REAR ONLY. This will not activate the ABS for the front unless you are on a surface (ice), that using only the rear brake causes the front wheel to lock up or come close to locking up. This is how these systems are designed. The system will only work the wheel or wheels that are ACTIVELY experiencing lockup. On dry pavement with decent tires you will have to make a PANIC stop to activate the front ABS. Most people would think twice before grabbing the front brake that hard on a bike. I do every time I practice it. One thing that helped was being able to lock the front wheel on my KLR and not crash, through practice.
While on the track at 140 MPH I had to grab all the brakes my 2012 C14 had in order to make turn 1. This meant pulling the lever to the handlebar and standing on the foot pedal as hard as I could. That will activate the ABS front and rear! 
Matt

I think I will stick to the gravel lot  ;)

140 on a gravel lot?  You got 'stones bro!   :-\

Matt

Heck no!  Only about 15 mph on the gravel lol  ;)

Offline Brooke_Benfield_OR

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #112 on: March 13, 2017, 08:48:59 pm »
I became alarmed reading this thread and another related thread on an FJR forum that I set out yesterday to cause the ABS system on my FJR to intervene on a patch of gravel. I wasn't able to tell for sure if it actually cycled or not after applying what seemed like a great deal of pedal/lever effort so I just went home.

I grabbed the owners manual and read what Mama Yama says about the ABS system. The short version is that every time after turning on the key, the first time you exceed 6 MPH the ABS system is briefly cycled. I'm assuming that a failure to operate would set a code.

Are you folk sure that Maw Kaw doesn't do something like this?
Brooke Benfield  2013 FJR1300  COG #2185

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #113 on: March 13, 2017, 09:10:44 pm »
I became alarmed reading this thread and another related thread on an FJR forum that I set out yesterday to cause the ABS system on my FJR to intervene on a patch of gravel. I wasn't able to tell for sure if it actually cycled or not after applying what seemed like a great deal of pedal/lever effort so I just went home.

I grabbed the owners manual and read what Mama Yama says about the ABS system. The short version is that every time after turning on the key, the first time you exceed 6 MPH the ABS system is briefly cycled. I'm assuming that a failure to operate would set a code.

Are you folk sure that Maw Kaw doesn't do something like this?

can't say for sure it "actuates", but the diagnostics after startup keep the warning light on for a short distance, like maybe 75-100 feet before the wheel speed sensors register that they are turning equally, then the light shuts off...
I vaguely recall seeing this light flash during an abs actuation once, in extremely slippery wet road emergency stop, but I can't recall if it happened every time I had the ABS actuate, and save my butt... which was clinched..... :rotflmao:

I have an '08 model.

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Offline mattchewn

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #114 on: March 13, 2017, 09:11:01 pm »
Brooke,
every ABS system has a pretest routine it goes through every time it is turned on. How intricate and detailed this test is varies from system to system. This is what some are talking about here. Is Kawasaki actually liable for not making their system more sensitive to errors?
Matt
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Offline Freddy

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #115 on: March 14, 2017, 12:41:43 am »
I became alarmed reading this thread and another related thread on an FJR forum that I set out yesterday to cause the ABS system on my FJR to intervene on a patch of gravel. I wasn't able to tell for sure if it actually cycled or not after applying what seemed like a great deal of pedal/lever effort so I just went home.

I grabbed the owners manual and read what Mama Yama says about the ABS system. The short version is that every time after turning on the key, the first time you exceed 6 MPH the ABS system is briefly cycled. I'm assuming that a failure to operate would set a code.

Are you folk sure that Maw Kaw doesn't do something like this?


Yes it does, according to the senior tech service rep I spoke to about the ABS failure on my series 1 bike.  The valves & solenoids are cycled but the pump is not activated.  THE problem is that a failure to 'pass' the test does not set a fault code which SHOULD be indicated  by the ABS light staying on.  Hence we ride off in the false belief that all's well when it ain't.
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Offline gpd323

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #116 on: March 14, 2017, 12:53:24 am »
Next ride I will stab the rear brake again, it likes to skip when the ABS activates. Good info guys.  :beerchug:

I will then bleed the brakes again.
Greg Downing
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Offline Smitty

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #117 on: March 17, 2017, 02:40:28 pm »
I have sent my "defective" ABS pump from my 08' to MOB for dissection.  We shall see what he finds.  My ABS light never came on to indicate any failure in the system. 
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Offline TimR

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #118 on: March 17, 2017, 03:19:05 pm »
It will be nice to get to the bottom of this with a report from MOB.  I activated the rear ABS in a gravel parking lot yesterday. I might go ahead and put fresh brake fluid in the rear brake system. It's not all that old but it would not take very long to do. 
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Offline Staylo

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #119 on: March 17, 2017, 04:05:51 pm »
This might be a dumb question, but there's only one ABS pump on the bike correct? So if you activate the rear ABS then you are cycling the pump. Is it necessary to activate the front ABS as well? Obviously that will test your valves etc. in the front end, but wouldn't make any difference for the pump would it?
Lancaster County, PA
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #120 on: March 17, 2017, 04:44:28 pm »
It will be nice to get to the bottom of this with a report from MOB.  I activated the rear ABS in a gravel parking lot yesterday. I might go ahead and put fresh brake fluid in the rear brake system. It's not all that old but it would not take very long to do.

I have pump in hand, and will be starting on this shortly.
Unfortunatly the codes that may have been stored in the pump, were never recorded, if any occurred... not a big deal tho, I'll still check it out.

I have an '08 and the pump in hand is from an '08 also, I don't have a gen 2 pump yet or the manual for a gen 2 bike, so all I can do is what I have right now, if anyone has a bad gen 2 pump that is sitting out of the bike, id like one of those also,

And if anyone can do a pdf file for me from a gen 2 manual on the ABS unit and codes, let me know and shoot me a copy please...

Thanks...

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Offline Freddy

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #121 on: March 17, 2017, 11:05:01 pm »
This might be a dumb question, but there's only one ABS pump on the bike correct? So if you activate the rear ABS then you are cycling the pump. Is it necessary to activate the front ABS as well? Obviously that will test your valves etc. in the front end, but wouldn't make any difference for the pump would it?

Correct - just one pump.  As we know there are 2 types to ABS units - linked and non-linked.  The solenoids and valve are activated each time the bike is started and ridden a short distance then the ABS light goes off - it's supposed to stay ON if a fault is detected.  The pump is not activated during the initial self-test process.

Smitty's problem, mine and a relatively small but slowly growing number of other owners of the early (non-linked & separate circuit system) bike find that the ABS light goes OFF but the rear brake will fail to apply upon first and subsequent applications - no rear brake whatsoever, just a solid pedal that cannot be depressed.

The linked system seems to be fault free in this regard from what I've seen and read. 

The behaviour of the ABS system is different between the linked and non-linked systems while the linked system will exhibit different behaviour dependent upon the type of surface each tyre is in contact with - because the front & rear are linked.   ;D



MOB, gen 1 faults are retained within the ABS ECU memory even when it's removed from the bike and can only be deleted by following the prescribed procedure when powered up.  If his ABS light never came on it never recorded a fault.

As the KDS3 can be connected to the ABS unit it may be a good move to have the faulty unit checked that way before disassembly to see if KDS3 detects something that the self-test system does not - just a thought. 

FWIW, and as I'm sure you already know, the gen 2 unit is a little more complex electrically due to TC and consequent connections to the bike's ECU and has a different fault display/retrieval/delete.


Finally, there is a similar discussion happening on 'the other' forum which I and others here are watching or posting to.   :)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 06:08:29 am by Freddy »
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Offline Smitty

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #122 on: March 18, 2017, 12:34:45 am »
I don't know if this is relevant or not, but the ABS light never came on even when I deleted the ABS brake lines going to the pump and just had the lines going straight from the master cylinder to the caliper.
'08 Kawasaki Concours ABS; Decel Flashed by SiSF ("Gazelleda")
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Offline Staylo

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #123 on: March 18, 2017, 12:46:31 am »
This might be a dumb question, but there's only one ABS pump on the bike correct? So if you activate the rear ABS then you are cycling the pump. Is it necessary to activate the front ABS as well? Obviously that will test your valves etc. in the front end, but wouldn't make any difference for the pump would it?

Correct - just one pump.

So, for the sake of cycling the ABS pump periodically is it then sufficient to simply lock up the rear brake until the ABS kicks in, and not worry about getting the ABS to cycle on the front wheel?
Lancaster County, PA
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: ABS failure due to fluid
« Reply #124 on: March 18, 2017, 12:53:14 am »
style,
for the cycling of the pump yes, but the front solenoids won't get a workout without being used!
Matt
2018 H2 SXSE.  (FAT SXSE)
2011 GSX1250 FA
2009 Ninja 500R. (wifes')
2001 Bandit 650  (kids')