Author Topic: Acceleration problem-getting worse  (Read 1640 times)

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Offline Ronnie

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Acceleration problem-getting worse
« on: October 24, 2017, 12:22:01 pm »
2012 C14 with 29k miles on the clock and Steve's decel tune.  A few thousand miles ago, I started occasionally noticing a slight surge when accelerating.  Not terrible and very seldom, but enough for me to notice.  I first thought maybe the traction control was kicking in due to slick spots on the road I couldn't see.  As it got to be more often and more pronounced, I pinpointed it to only doing it when low on fuel(less than a gallon or gallon and a half).  When it went in for a service last month, they checked everything and couldn't find a problem(Like a dummy I had filled it up with gas a couple of days before).  Coming home Sunday from my place in the mountains, it started doing it very badly.  Any throttle input more than probably 20% and it falls on it's face above 3 or 4k RPMs.  This was with at least half a tank of 93 octane still in it.  I'm leaning towards a fueling problem like maybe a clogged fuel filter or water in the tank???  It acts like a fueling problem, but wanted to get you guys/gals opinion on if these bikes can exhibit symptoms of a fueling problem when it's actually a spark problem??  It's not a dead miss and it never stumbles, just falls on it's face like it's not getting fuel.  Any guidance or tips would be appreciated.  Also, it has the original battery still.  It shows 13.7 V when keyed on before cranking and then goes up to 14.6 or 14.7 after a few seconds of idling.  Could dirty terminals/ground wire connection cause this?  I'm hoping to work on it this Saturday.  Thanks in advance!
Ronnie

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Offline Baggerjohn

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 12:43:33 pm »
Fuel filter is the first thing I'd check.

Air filter is the second.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2017, 01:24:56 pm »
   I don't know if the c-14 will suffer this, but the c-10 will exhibit the exact same issues when the gas cap isn't venting and the tank develops vacuum. Not sure on the 14 because it has a fuel pump and not gravity fed, but I'm sure at some point vacuum would reduce fuel pressure. You can diagnose by leaving a spare key in the gas cap and then opening the cap when the problem presents itself during a ride. If the starvation goes away, you have your culprit. If you stop and open the cap and here a "woosh" of air filling the tank, then you know the cap isn't venting.

  We've also seen clogged fuel filters and failing fuel pumps exhibit the same issues.

HTH, Steve
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Offline smithr1

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 03:59:29 pm »
After getting to and cleaning the fuel filter on my 2010 with 50k I am SURE any bike with a similar life will need the filter cleaned or replaced.   NASTY!

Of course the flip side of this is being sure your air filter is clean also.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2017, 06:11:56 pm »
2012 C14 with 29k miles on the clock and Steve's decel tune.  A few thousand miles ago, I started occasionally noticing a slight surge when accelerating.  Not terrible and very seldom, but enough for me to notice.  I first thought maybe the traction control was kicking in due to slick spots on the road I couldn't see.  As it got to be more often and more pronounced, I pinpointed it to only doing it when low on fuel(less than a gallon or gallon and a half).  When it went in for a service last month, they checked everything and couldn't find a problem(Like a dummy I had filled it up with gas a couple of days before).  Coming home Sunday from my place in the mountains, it started doing it very badly.  Any throttle input more than probably 20% and it falls on it's face above 3 or 4k RPMs.  This was with at least half a tank of 93 octane still in it.  I'm leaning towards a fueling problem like maybe a clogged fuel filter or water in the tank???  It acts like a fueling problem, but wanted to get you guys/gals opinion on if these bikes can exhibit symptoms of a fueling problem when it's actually a spark problem??  It's not a dead miss and it never stumbles, just falls on it's face like it's not getting fuel.  Any guidance or tips would be appreciated.  Also, it has the original battery still.  It shows 13.7 V when keyed on before cranking and then goes up to 14.6 or 14.7 after a few seconds of idling.  Could dirty terminals/ground wire connection cause this?  I'm hoping to work on it this Saturday.  Thanks in advance!

I tend to think it may be a case of the dirty fuel filter also, from your description and time lapse on performance degradation....
Meaning since it first appeared, it continually got worse...
As this system is pump fed, as Steve notes, fuel line clogs are really not an issue, as with water, unless a large amount is present... and at that point, the filter itself will be the point of failure...
As these tanks are a pain to drain, siphoning out the fuel down to less than a gallon is necessary, as fuel doesn't "drain" out of the line as it would on a gravity fed bike.. I have pulled and inspected my pump/filter assembly twice since '07, with about one gallon in it, and turned almost vertical to access the pump plate fro removal, and promptly dumping the remainder into a can using a large funnel... outdoors... for pump exam and to wipe out the tank inside...
Next time I pull my tank, I will be replafing the filter, just on general principle, as I don't want to have it occurr on a road trip...

Id start looking there...

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
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Offline Tinsailor

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 06:56:50 pm »
Yours is acting a lot like mine was and turned out to be a bad fuel pump. Inspect the filter first but no more mileage than you’ve got, that’s probably not it.

Offline NYbiomed

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 07:02:41 pm »
I think it's wise to ALWAYS check/clean the grounds first- it's easy and costs nothing, just do it right and use a dremel tool with a wire brush and apply dielectric grease afterwards to prevent future contamination/corrosion. I have a spare fuel pump from my VVT actuator debacle I can send you for diagnostic purposes if you want- PM me.

 :great:
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1999 Suzuki Katana 750   1993 Yamaha Seca II
1990 Kawasaki EX500      1983 Honda CB1000 Custom

Offline soonerone

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 08:56:36 pm »
Had the same thing happen on my '08 this summer at the National's.  It started this suddenly while we were out riding 2 up with about 1/2 tank of fuel.  Stopped and filled up and the problem went away. Anyway, long story short,  I apparently had picked up some bad gas on the last fill up.  After limping home and removing the pump/fuel filter, I found bits of rubber and metal shavings in the tank. New filter and a good cleaning fixed everything. Running great now.

J
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Offline BDF

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 09:18:42 pm »
Yeah, sounds like fuel delivery, either a bad fuel pump or clogged fuel filter, the second one being more likely.

The fuel pump is not made to be serviceable and meant to be treated as an entire unit; Kawasaki's way to deal with this is to just change out the fuel pump a**'y, which contains both the fuel pump and filter, as well as the regulator. That said, the fuel pump a**'y is pretty easy to take apart and change the filter or just install a new one, and there are threads on exactly how to do that as well as what the part number for a new filter is (the filter is not sold for a C-14 but rather a water vehicle but it is the same one).

But before replacing anything, you should do a volume test on the pump. The FSM states the pump should deliver a minimum of 2.26 US Fl. Oz. in 3 seconds. If your pump is not delivering enough fuel to allow the engine to run correctly, it will fail this test by a large amount.

The pump is fairly easy to R&R but you will have to drain (mostly) the tank, remove the tank and turn it upside down to get at the pump. From there it is just a matter of unbolting the pump and removing it; it uses a large O- ring to seal so you will not have to buy any gasket or seal beforehand.

Best of luck with this.

Brian

2012 C14 with 29k miles on the clock and Steve's decel tune.  A few thousand miles ago, I started occasionally noticing a slight surge when accelerating.  Not terrible and very seldom, but enough for me to notice.  I first thought maybe the traction control was kicking in due to slick spots on the road I couldn't see.  As it got to be more often and more pronounced, I pinpointed it to only doing it when low on fuel(less than a gallon or gallon and a half).  When it went in for a service last month, they checked everything and couldn't find a problem(Like a dummy I had filled it up with gas a couple of days before).  Coming home Sunday from my place in the mountains, it started doing it very badly.  Any throttle input more than probably 20% and it falls on it's face above 3 or 4k RPMs.  This was with at least half a tank of 93 octane still in it.  I'm leaning towards a fueling problem like maybe a clogged fuel filter or water in the tank???  It acts like a fueling problem, but wanted to get you guys/gals opinion on if these bikes can exhibit symptoms of a fueling problem when it's actually a spark problem??  It's not a dead miss and it never stumbles, just falls on it's face like it's not getting fuel.  Any guidance or tips would be appreciated.  Also, it has the original battery still.  It shows 13.7 V when keyed on before cranking and then goes up to 14.6 or 14.7 after a few seconds of idling.  Could dirty terminals/ground wire connection cause this?  I'm hoping to work on it this Saturday.  Thanks in advance!
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2017, 11:56:12 am »
Good Thread, and good responses.

Waiting to see what he finds.   :popcorncouple:
 
gr
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Offline Ronnie

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2018, 05:27:51 pm »
I had forgotten about this post of mine from last year.  Figured I would fill everyone in on the outcome.  As the weather cooled off last year, the problem went away and I forgot all about it.  I ride almost every day and it never happened again.....until two weeks ago.  I had gone to my place in the mountains for a few days and was out riding with a buddy.  I took off fast and about 7k rpms in second gear it fell on it's face hard.  It came right back and ripped on up to redline and then didn't do it again the rest of the weekend.  On the way home after running 90-100mph on the interstate for about an hour, the problem came back very pronounced and stayed.  The bike would barely maintain 60-70mph and ANY increase in the throttle would cause it to stumble.  I babied it the last two hours home and went straight to the dealership to drop it off.  Fuel pump wound up being bad(which was my suspicion all along) and they said the fuel filter was very clogged.  I think the 95 degree temps, coupled with my spirited riding style just finally did it in.   Anyway, sorry to bring back such an old post but I figured I would give it some closure.  :)
Ronnie

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2018, 06:13:13 pm »
I had forgotten about this post of mine from last year.  Figured I would fill everyone in on the outcome.  As the weather cooled off last year, the problem went away and I forgot all about it.  I ride almost every day and it never happened again.....until two weeks ago.  I had gone to my place in the mountains for a few days and was out riding with a buddy.  I took off fast and about 7k rpms in second gear it fell on it's face hard.  It came right back and ripped on up to redline and then didn't do it again the rest of the weekend.  On the way home after running 90-100mph on the interstate for about an hour, the problem came back very pronounced and stayed.  The bike would barely maintain 60-70mph and ANY increase in the throttle would cause it to stumble.  I babied it the last two hours home and went straight to the dealership to drop it off.  Fuel pump wound up being bad(which was my suspicion all along) and they said the fuel filter was very clogged.  I think the 95 degree temps, coupled with my spirited riding style just finally did it in.   Anyway, sorry to bring back such an old post but I figured I would give it some closure.  :)

  Thanks for posting that . Another person contacted me about the same symptoms, and yup, it was the fuel pump. I guess nothing lasts forever! Steve
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2018, 08:10:55 pm »
I had forgotten about this post of mine from last year.  Figured I would fill everyone in on the outcome.  As the weather cooled off last year, the problem went away and I forgot all about it.  I ride almost every day and it never happened again.....until two weeks ago.  I had gone to my place in the mountains for a few days and was out riding with a buddy.  I took off fast and about 7k rpms in second gear it fell on it's face hard.  It came right back and ripped on up to redline and then didn't do it again the rest of the weekend.  On the way home after running 90-100mph on the interstate for about an hour, the problem came back very pronounced and stayed.  The bike would barely maintain 60-70mph and ANY increase in the throttle would cause it to stumble.  I babied it the last two hours home and went straight to the dealership to drop it off.  Fuel pump wound up being bad(which was my suspicion all along) and they said the fuel filter was very clogged.  I think the 95 degree temps, coupled with my spirited riding style just finally did it in.   Anyway, sorry to bring back such an old post but I figured I would give it some closure.  :)


  Thanks for posting that . Another person contacted me about the same symptoms, and yup, it was the fuel pump. I guess nothing lasts forever! Steve


bummer, but there is a good source for fuel pump assemblies now, for pretty cheap...
http://forum.cog-online.org/fuel-cooling-and-oil-systems-59/repacement-fuel-pumpfilter-combo/msg636925/#msg636925


IMHO, it's kind of a 'chicken or egg' thing, like which comes first...
I think that when the first symptoms surface, if the pump is pulled, and filter replaced, the pump will live on for a long time... trouble is, it gets passed off, and by the time the blockage is sooo bad it can't flow, it stresses the pump to the point of failure. This is based on what I've seen in years of car/truck issues, where this occurred (to me personally), and because I waited sooo long to replace a filter I have a truck sitting right now, which ran after I replaced the filter, but much too late, and the pump failed about 2 months later... now it sits, because I can't pull the truck bed off to replace the pump all by myself.. and dropping the tank ain't happening..
When it occurred on my other truck, same engine and manufacturer, I immediately replaced that filter, and the truck is fine, 3 years later... periodic filter replacement is easy, compared to cost and p.i.t.a. fuel pump replacement.
Kaw clearly caught on to the symptoms, and the issues, as they actually now have a pump filter and o-ring 'kit', for curing the problem when someone brings one in... unfortunately, It never hit the MicroFiche untill 2017... and anyone bringing in a pre '17 bike, they will gouge you for the 'full monty' pump assembly, because they never read those 'service bulletin updates'..

well, they probably do read them, but when they type in any bikes date pre '17, they can claim ignorance...
bummer...

I've had mine apart a couple times, to 'flush' clean the filter, and replace it, never needed the expensive kit with the o-rings, and tiny screws (in kit, because they figure you will loose one, or the TECH doing the work will at least..)
kit is
99999-0521   KIT,FUEL FILTER
$62 from RonAyers...  for like $15 worth of parts...

a bit pricey, but hey...
the COMPLETE Quantum pump, referenced up top, runs $70, and has a filter in it... they also sell filters for $15 for 3 filters.

filters are cheap, and easily sourced.
Kaw p/n 49019-0013

or    https://tinyurl.com/y7c2zhh2





best of luck.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 08:31:47 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2018, 10:18:10 pm »
This is my recent experience with surging and bucking when the tank gets low. Pulling the tank (easy) removing the gas, pulling the fuel filter and cleaning it totally solved the problem. While I cleaned the filter, I think it was water in the gas tank caused by just one bad gas station fill up.  As you can see from below, I know why and where it happened.

I was not kidding about getting great gas mileage on this trip with the SISF Decel flash. These are the actual calculations using miles and gallons. 48.5 MPG average and 3 fill ups at over 50 MPG.  It closely matched the average shown on the display as well.  This trip was more Touring than Sport.



Speaking of gas, I was on a rural secondary in the middle of Vermont on the way back and needed gas with no idea when the next gas stop was going to appear. I say that because it was an older station with a fuel truck filling the tanks. I always heard to avoid that because it stirs up crap in the tank, and you guessed it. I headed out of the station and later on with that tank I was passing some cars and she started to surge and buck above 4000 RPM. I filled the tank and it it seemed to be ok. As I neared home, I had 215 miles on the tank with about a gallon left  and it started to buck and surge above 3000 RPMs and would shut off if I closed the throttle. Water settles to the bottom of the tank, so it makes sense it was water.  I patted her on the tank and said let’s get you a gas drink. I had to do some careful riding and shifting to keep the RPM’s just right. I coasted into the next gas station and it stalled. Filling it up made the issue go away.

I could have dumped some Heet or some other gas treatment in to try to clear it up.  But not happy to have water or gunk in the tank, I did the gold standard thing and pulled the tank and disassembled the fuel pump and cleaned the filter. I had replaced it at 40,000 miles and it was not that dirty, so it had to be water in the gas. I took her for a ride and she and rips and roars as normal.

Even the best athletes can’t perform with food poising, so the C-14 is not to blame and as always gets me home. My bad for fueling at that station. Lesson learned. Otherwise that motorcycle was perfect for the long trip.
Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline Tinsailor

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2018, 12:18:18 pm »
I had forgotten about this post of mine from last year.  Figured I would fill everyone in on the outcome.  As the weather cooled off last year, the problem went away and I forgot all about it.  I ride almost every day and it never happened again.....until two weeks ago.  I had gone to my place in the mountains for a few days and was out riding with a buddy.  I took off fast and about 7k rpms in second gear it fell on it's face hard.  It came right back and ripped on up to redline and then didn't do it again the rest of the weekend.  On the way home after running 90-100mph on the interstate for about an hour, the problem came back very pronounced and stayed.  The bike would barely maintain 60-70mph and ANY increase in the throttle would cause it to stumble.  I babied it the last two hours home and went straight to the dealership to drop it off.  Fuel pump wound up being bad(which was my suspicion all along) and they said the fuel filter was very clogged.  I think the 95 degree temps, coupled with my spirited riding style just finally did it in.   Anyway, sorry to bring back such an old post but I figured I would give it some closure.  :)

I’m tellin ya, it’s doing exactly the same as my 13 was doing.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Acceleration problem-getting worse
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2018, 01:46:17 pm »
Ronnie, thanks for posting the follow up.
That info will help someone else someday!

Ride safe, Ted
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