Author Topic: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?  (Read 1265 times)

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2019, 01:24:19 am »
show me.

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and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Bruiser

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2019, 01:27:28 am »
When taking a trip, carry a bottle of HEET. It helps to burn that old worthless gas.
Bruiser

2012 Kawasaki C14
93 Kawasaki C10
1982 Honda CX500 Turbo
1980 Kawasaki KZ1000ST
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1976 Honda 750K
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1972 Honda SL125

Offline Freddy

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2019, 01:30:22 am »
show me.

You'll work that out for yourself when you do the filter.   :)
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2019, 02:29:33 am »
no, I seriously ask you to show me this. A check valve is not a pressure regulating device, per se, it can be, but only in cases of specific design( i.e. dual function multi pressure/circuit back flow devices) but in this case (it's a simple ball/spring device) it's just a back flow prevention, and it's purpose is benign, and only used to 'seal'. not to "regulate flow",
it's used to prevent backflow between the pump,throttle rail, and fuel source, negligible, by prohibiting an air pocket between the two. spring and ball.. that is all...
now, if there is actually a pressure regulating device, within the pump, that I am not aware of, it is different than a simple check valve as noted. I'm sure there is a "pressure "switch, that says "shut off/turn on", but not an actual regulating device. Per se.


but you did make me do further study, and I thank you for that. :motonoises: :great:
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 02:33:53 am by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Freddy

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2019, 03:54:28 am »
Let me ask you this Rich: where is the check valve you speak of?  Where is the pressure regulating device?

You say: dual function multi pressure/circuit back flow devices)   That's what IS in the pump.


........ but in this case (it's a simple ball/spring device) it's just a back flow prevention, and it's purpose is benign, and only used to 'seal'. not to "regulate flow.....      Not so.

You say: I'm sure there is a "pressure "switch, that says "shut off/turn on", but not an actual regulating device.
  Being sure it has a pressure switch doesn't make it exist. 

If you check the DFI section of the FSM you will note that there is no pressure switch because the pump runs constantly while the engine is running.  The bulk of the fuel pumped simply circulates within the tank, going thru the filter again and again and again while the small amount needed for combustion is bled off to the injectors.

All will be revealed when you do your own.   :beerchug:

Perhaps you're confusing this K system with a BMW bike system?    :beerchug:
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2019, 06:49:25 pm »
Update:  I ran a tank of new gas after cleaning things up, down to near empty, and had full power the whole way. I also added more miles on yet another tank.

I’m calling it bad gas. Thanks for that Shell  >:( Shell V-Power in this case was Shell H2O No-Power.  I like their gas, but that tank failed me.

Silver 2011 C-14 and 2019 Versys 1000 SE LT+.  Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2019, 07:16:48 pm »
Let me ask you this Rich: where is the check valve you speak of?  Where is the pressure regulating device?

You say: dual function multi pressure/circuit back flow devices)   That's what IS in the pump.


........ but in this case (it's a simple ball/spring device) it's just a back flow prevention, and it's purpose is benign, and only used to 'seal'. not to "regulate flow.....      Not so.

You say: I'm sure there is a "pressure "switch, that says "shut off/turn on", but not an actual regulating device.
  Being sure it has a pressure switch doesn't make it exist. 

If you check the DFI section of the FSM you will note that there is no pressure switch because the pump runs constantly while the engine is running.  The bulk of the fuel pumped simply circulates within the tank, going thru the filter again and again and again while the small amount needed for combustion is bled off to the injectors.

All will be revealed when you do your own.   :beerchug:

Perhaps you're confusing this K system with a BMW bike system?    :beerchug:

 :rotflmao:

you "over read" something into the comments, that I did not say.
I was only explaining there "is" a check valve, and a check valve "differs" from a flow control device (I never said one was in this pump "f/c" device, that is).

this is the info printed on the page for the "replacement" pump I noted before that supposedly "works great" (3 people have posted buying and using them in the last 1-1/2 years)
https://www.highflowfuel.com/i-23443610-quantum-t35-intank-fuel-pump-for-kawasaki-concours-14-zg1400-2008-2018-replaces-49040-0024.html

Includes:
UC-T35 EFI fuel pump w/ check valve
Polyethylene (not paper) strainer
Viton canister o-rings
Replacement wiring leads
 
Features & Benefits:
Pressure: +/- 43psi OE spec
OEM or better performance
Polished corrosion-resistant case to help minimize seizing during non-operation
Specifically designed for quiet operation
Drop-in replacement
Gradient density fuel strainer for superior contaminant filtration
Patented check valve technology
Compatible with modern ethanol-infused pump gasoline

I've not "ripped" mine apart...

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2019, 08:25:02 pm »
I still question if there is an "internal" switch, within the pump,(the physical sealed pump unit, not the plastic housing/shell) that is supposed to "shut off" in the event pressure becomes "too high".. and again, I admit, I do not "know", not having pulled a defective one apart....
but reading the sections of my FSM, and looking at "inspections", It does support my "check valve" statement, as without one, the system would not "maintain" pressure with the key off, or when cycled off and on multiple times.

•Measure the fuel pressure with the engine stopped.
Fuel Pressure right after Ignition Switch ON, with pump running:
Standard: 304 kPa (3.1 kgf/cm², 44 psi)

after 3 seconds from Ignition Switch ON, with pump
stopped:
Standard: 280 kPa (2.9 kgf/cm², 41 psi) , residual fuel pressure
The system should hold the residual
pressure about 30 seconds.


•Start the engine, and let it idle. •Measure the fuel pressure with the engine idling.
Fuel Pressure (idling)
Standard: 304 kPa (3.1 kgf/cm², 44 psi)
NOTE
○The gauge hand will fluctuate. Read the pressure at the
average of the maximum and minimum indications.
If the fuel pressure is much higher than the specified, replace
the fuel pump (see Fuel Pump section).
If the fuel pressure is much lower than specified, check....etc.,

I'm kinda bummed, as I have stuff all apart right now, but I know many times messing with stuff, I have turned the bike "On" and "Off", with the ignition switch press/turn, and after a couple times (maybe 2 or 3 within 1 minute), the pump does "not" kick on for the 3 second ritual, and shut off...  like it "knows" there is residual pressure present...

Please try it on yours, and tell me if I was mistaken, it seems silly, but I really didn't pay much attention to it until now, when I recall this as common.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Freddy

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2019, 09:38:38 pm »
I'm away from my bike for a coupla daze but I think it behaves as you describe.  I have understood that to be a function of the ECU - to prime the fuel system just once within a fairly short period.    :beerchug:
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2019, 10:31:51 pm »
A point not to be lost here. My C-14 has been flawless for 66,000 plus miles mechanically, less one leaky seal in the final drive that was covered by warranty. I’m calling the bad gas something like fuel poisoning, so no fault of this mechanical wonder.  :motonoises:   :great:
Silver 2011 C-14 and 2019 Versys 1000 SE LT+.  Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2019, 10:34:50 pm »
I'm away from my bike for a coupla daze but I think it behaves as you describe.  I have understood that to be a function of the ECU - to prime the fuel system just once within a fairly short period.    :beerchug:
Thanks Freddy, I'll know more shortly, I just need a 2 day zero rain period so I can open my tanks and mess around... and my filters didn't get here yet anyway, so off to pick one up on Monday...

some else reading this can help us both, maybe, by doing as I asked...
"initiate the start sequence" (press/turn switch) multiple times in one minute, and report on how many times the pump "activates", then wait 5 minutes, and repeat... should be clear.

I do know it would spin up at least 2 times, but can't say that after 3 it really did..

can't imagine the ECU is "running a timer" on attempts... :)) :))

thanks, all this knowledge transfer is well worth discussion, it makes us all wiser :beerchug: :beerchug:

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Freddy

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2019, 09:26:35 am »
Will do in a coupla days Rich. 

Thinking about the pump on/off priming sequence with key and my comment that the ECU does it, I retract that 'thought.'  While riding my 10yo Can-Am Spyder today (while away over Easter with the girl of my dreams on back) I was distracted enough to think again and asked myself: 'how would that happen if the ECU is not powered when the key is off?'  And the answer I got was: 'I'm probly wrong about that.'

Anywho, maybe someone else can buy into our discussion and maybe even SISF knows the answers and simply add from his depth of knowledge.    :beerchug:
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline woodie

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2019, 12:49:38 pm »
WOW!!! I just made my post about the identical problem. Then I see your post. Unreal that we have the same symptom! Or maybe it's not unreal. Your bike is older then mine and with more miles, right? Boy, sure need to get this one figured out! I'm glad we are on this train together.

Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2019, 02:01:18 pm »
2011 with 66,000 miles. Could be the C-14 injectors are more sensitive to water than most engines?  I read your post and our symptoms are nearly identical.
Silver 2011 C-14 and 2019 Versys 1000 SE LT+.  Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline Alan_Yucius_FL

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2019, 01:52:05 pm »
 :popcorncouple:

Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2019, 06:41:10 pm »
My C-14 continues to run strong, so I have no doubt it was bad gas both times.  I cruised again by that gas station on Route 9 in Vermont, and realized it was also a Shell station.  So Shell gas did me wrong twice.   :??:
Silver 2011 C-14 and 2019 Versys 1000 SE LT+.  Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline flashback50

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2019, 04:27:56 pm »
My C-14 continues to run strong, so I have no doubt it was bad gas both times.  I cruised again by that gas station on Route 9 in Vermont, and realized it was also a Shell station.  So Shell gas did me wrong twice.   :??:

That must be a problem isolated to that particular station. Maybe dirty tanks? I have used only Shell in all my vehicles for years here in Tennessee and never had a problem.

Offline Jim

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2019, 04:44:02 pm »
There are so many variables in transporting gasoline, so you can't necessarily blame the station, although they have responsibilities, too. For starters, did the people taking care of the tanks at the refinery or bulk plant check the tanks for water regularly? For the hauler, was the trailer clean, or was some other product hauled in it? As for the station, they should check for water when they "stick" the tanks for inventory. As you can see, a lot can go wrong in the delivery process.

Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Bad gas, but twice in 10 months?
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2019, 05:23:00 pm »
I generally seek out Shell or other Tier 1 gas, and avoid the no name brands when possible.  I think Shell is one of the better ones.  I'm just pointing out that it was Shell that did me wrong twice, so it points to the fact that nothing is guaranteed.  I agree there are many factors out of control of the refined product.   
Silver 2011 C-14 and 2019 Versys 1000 SE LT+.  Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......