Author Topic: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed  (Read 10753 times)

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Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2011, 05:01:01 pm »
Heh, not what Dynotronics says. This gets more interesting by the minute. What is the difference between what they do?

By the way, the ZX14 ECU was first downloaded in 2007 I think, by HealTech, trying to figure out how to get rid of the decel backfire without losing the gear indicator. They couldn't figure out how to do it, and gave up on it 2 years later.  Guhl is the first I heard of to offer a reflashed ECU for the ZX14 engine.

I have no idea what Dynotronics is telling you, but they are two totally different companies and none of the work that Don Guhl is doing is based on anything that Dynotronics is doing. I've been working with Don on this project for almost two years now. He and I developed this tune totally on our own, and the primary focus of it is to open the secondary butterflies. The adjustments to the fuel map are small potatoes compared to the butterfly map, and the fuel adjustments are pretty minor, it just tries to reduce some of the over richness that Kawasaki programmed in to bring it in closer to 13.2 to 13.4 range (~ .89 lamba). The big benifets of the Guhl reflash are from opening up the butterflies further and sooner. Go back to page one of this thread and watch the Utube videos I posted showing the butterfly opening rates.

I watched those videos intently, and they are what sold me on the idea of paying for a reflashed ECU.

Here is a direct cut and paste of the email I just got from Dynotronics.

Quote
John, Yes we open the secondaries sooner, ramp them open quicker, and keep them open till redline. We also adjust the timing, remove the restrictions, > adjust cam mapping,raise the rev limit, and speed limiters. We were the company that broke the coding on the GRT 1400 , so I'm happy you liked the > results of Gulh's tuning, as it is based on our research. BTW 13:1 is a bit too rich for the GTR1400

Dynotronics does more than Guhl if all the Guhl does is minor A/F map tweaks and major secondary map changes as you say. Apparently they disagree as to the history of decoding the C14 ECU too, lol. As well as saying a 13:1 A/F is too rich, which I totally agree with based on dyno tuning my ZX14.

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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2011, 05:02:23 pm »
One more thing I'd like to mention. My wideband 02 sensor is installed upstream of the CAT's in the header, and my secondary air system is plugged. This means my 02 sensor is reading the unaltered output of the exhaust. Many tuners will simply insert an O2 sensor up the exhaust pipe AFTER the CAT's and this can skew their results, as will the secondary air supply system if it is not plugged.
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Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2011, 05:10:09 pm »
One more thing I'd like to mention. My wideband 02 sensor is installed upstream of the CAT's in the header, and my secondary air system is plugged. This means my 02 sensor is reading the unaltered output of the exhaust. Many tuners will simply insert an O2 sensor up the exhaust pipe AFTER the CAT's and this can skew their results, as will the secondary air supply system if it is not plugged.

Agree.

But I don't run stock exhausts on anything, though. LOL.

The O2 bung on my ZX14's Brock's CT-DUAL exhaust system is about a foot past the collector, going towards the back of the bike. Brock did that because if you have it in front of the collector, the resonance is too great for accurate readings. The O2 sensors we can get are too slow to function like that properly.

Its a trade off between getting a clean sample and functioning in a condition of resonant shock waves bouncing around so close to the exhaust ports. On an aftermarket exhaust with no CATs, it can be further back, away from the resonance.

Where is the bung on the Muzzy C14 exhaust system? I'll have to ask Rob if nobody knows.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2011, 05:14:20 pm »
It really doesn't matter to me who did what first and I don't care to get in a tuner war over who makes the best reflash. This is why I asked a few weeks back that Dynotronics have their own thread on here.

You'll have to make your own decision on which way you want to go. As I said earlier, we intentionally left the fueling on the rich side to protect the engine. Longevity was more important to us than getting every last possible HP out of the engine. Running it a bit rich helps keep it cooler, and also insures you won't have a problem if you get a bad load of gas or your fuel pump pressure is a little low or some other such event. Don and I both felt it was better to error on the side of too rich than too lean. We also decided not to mess with the ignition tables for fear of causing detonation that could reduce the engines lifespan. Same thing goes for the rev limiter. Our approach was to make the minimum amount of changes we could from stock, but still get a nice improvement in throttle response and low end torque, and that is exactly what we achieved.

By the way, Don Guhl has also been working with Brock on tuning the ZX-10.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 05:16:07 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline Stewart

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2011, 04:02:31 pm »
Another point I'd like to add and why I went with Guhl, is Don is local and doing all the work locally with bikes/riders locally, which led to my confidence.

If you want Don to tweak your bike in any particular direction and provide a different map, then I am sure he can do that, since he's got total control of his flash. I'm not suggestion others don't, I simply don't know.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2011, 02:26:22 pm »
I got some questions about this yesterday at the motorcycle show, so I just wanted to bump this thread back up so folks could see the secondary butterfly map and the videos that are on the first page of this thread.
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Offline nando

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2012, 02:28:32 am »
 :popcorncouple:
I am voting for anyone who wasn't there during the government shut-down.

Offline Rasmith

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2012, 11:54:21 am »
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2012, 01:24:52 pm »
:popcorncouple:

Thats some stale Popcorn
I think it's really Chex Mix in a decoy bag... only thing I can figure could keep im interested that long. LOL
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2013, 11:00:27 pm »
Bumping this back to the top for someone who asked about this. Just made a fresh batch of popcorn too.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 11:05:02 pm by Fred_Harmon_TX »
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Offline kawcon14rider

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2013, 05:54:20 am »
Keep your flys. Yes reflash. Yes does wonders for 08 & 09 also.
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Offline nando

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2013, 05:56:45 am »
Wonders?
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2013, 01:02:09 pm »
Wonders?

Well, considering the HP and TQ gains that Fuelmoto gained in tuning and dyno testing the C-14, it is pretty significant. It felt like a good improvement on my 08 C-14. I'd have to assume that even if the Guhl reflash doesn't provide the same power increases, it should still be "wonderous"...lol. From what I've been reading on here, it looks like the Guhl reflash maps are done with more day to day driveability than the Fuelmoto tuning of a few years ago.

I'm curious Fred...you mentioned that your SAI/emmissions are plugged off...you're referring to installing the blanking plates on the valve cover and removing that smog valve, etc, correct? Was this done so that you could get a cleaner A/F reading on the exhaust or simply to clean up the popping on decel, or....was there another performance purpose?

Also, I've read on here that some guys have installed velocity stacks on their tuned C-14's. I assume these are the ones offered by FactoryPro? Is it beneficial to install these with a Guhl reflash or with a Fuelmoto tuned PC5? Just curious.

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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2013, 08:57:01 am »
Dont know that we can assume the 2010 'normal' mode would be the same as an 08/09 stock (modeless).

Fred mentioned in this thread or another one, that he and Guhl compared stock ECU maps between 08/09 and a 2010/11 model, and they were indeed different.

Now, how much different they were he didn't say. One would assume that they're not significantly different...maybe they made some changes with regards to emissions specs or something, or made some minor adjustments to the power curve?

As far as I knew, the engines were unchanged for the 2010 model year....somebody can correct me if I'm wrong.
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2013, 11:24:37 am »
I capped off the secondary air system on my bike because I have O2 sensors installed in my exhaust, and I didn't want the injected air to mess up the readings from my sensors. I install a PCV with an O2 sensor feedback look as a way to test various map adjustments during the research phase of the Guhl reflash project.

The internal fuel tables on the 2008 and 2010 were slightly different.  I don't have them readily available to compare right now, so I can't say how much different, but as I recall, it wasn't a lot.

The reflash achieves about the same as what the old Fuel Moto map run in a Power Commander with the butterflies removed, except that the throttle response is less abrupt at lower rpms.
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Secondary Butterfly Maps Revealed
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2013, 12:28:48 pm »
I capped off the secondary air system on my bike because I have O2 sensors installed in my exhaust, and I didn't want the injected air to mess up the readings from my sensors.

Did your block-off plates come with a plug for the airbox tube? If not, what did you do to plug it?

I installed a set on my ZRX last winter when re-jetting the carbs, and it was a bit of a pain finding something to plug that hole with.

Just curious. Thanks.
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