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Offline GIant81

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breath better
« on: April 26, 2018, 12:17:54 am »
I think she should be able to breath a bit better now

https://imgur.com/f4TGcwR
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 12:22:25 am by GIant81 »

Offline Justin726

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Re: breath better
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2018, 12:36:12 am »
 :-\

I just changed mine this weekend as well.  I let mine go way too far. Going to make it a point to check it on a more routine basis.   :-[

Offline ghostrider990

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Re: breath better
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2018, 12:38:07 am »
 :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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Offline jwh20

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Re: breath better
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2018, 12:40:38 am »
IMHO the C14's air filter is WAY small.  I understand that they had only a limited space to put it in but with the front-facing air inlets and the small size, it does get dirty very quickly.  I check mine out every few months.
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Offline GIant81

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Re: breath better
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2018, 12:57:34 am »
I guess every oil change should be good, now I just have to learn how to clean and re-oil the K&N

Offline Deepsea

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Re: breath better
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2018, 04:59:25 am »
GIant81, dirty but not to bad.


Justin 726, I have seen much worse. I changed one for a customer that was so packed it felt smooth across the pleats. He spent a lot of time on dirt roads.


Be careful with the K&N. An extremely common error is applying excessive amounts of oil. It takes very little. A few years ago I tested the K&N and the OEM filters on an AirBench. There was so little difference I went back to the OEM filter because it did a better job of blocking particulate matter (crap) from the engine and didn't get the sensors gunked up with an oily film that collects dirt. Also the K&N needs to be cleaned more frequently than the OEM needs changed. The up side is you only buy the K&N once. They are good (really just ok) but do have some down sides.
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: breath better
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2018, 05:51:21 am »
(Flame suit on)
Over the years, I've had two performance cars with small turbochargers. One was WRX (GD,HawkEye). Second, I had turbocharged naturally aspirated 2.0L (Suzuki J20A) engine and ran it for almost 3 years before moving onto next project.
WRX didn't like K/N filters at all. MAF fouling was greatest concern, especially after converting recirculating valve to BOV.
The one it really worked well with was AEM dry-flow. It still needed to be cleaned after a while. But there was no oiling involved. Usage of K&N oil filter was counterproductive as extra suction (from 17 psig boost)  would strip oil from fibers much quicker that N/A engine (@0 psig)  ;D 
Same story with J20A engine.  It ran great on regular paper-cone filter. Later I've switched to AEM dry-flow.
I've used K&N on speed density engine fuel management with good results. But had issues with mass flow engine fuel management when ran K&N in it. 
It is my subjective opinion.
YMMV!  :)
 

   

Offline Roger B

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Re: breath better
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2018, 11:18:46 am »
:-\

I just changed mine this weekend as well.  I let mine go way too far. Going to make it a point to check it on a more routine basis.   :-[


Do you know how many miles are on that filter?

Offline Grant

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Re: breath better
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2018, 11:23:53 am »
(Flame suit on)
Over the years, I've had two performance cars with small turbochargers. One was WRX (GD,HawkEye). Second, I had turbocharged naturally aspirated 2.0L (Suzuki J20A) engine and ran it for almost 3 years before moving onto next project.
WRX didn't like K/N filters at all. MAF fouling was greatest concern, especially after converting recirculating valve to BOV.
The one it really worked well with was AEM dry-flow. It still needed to be cleaned after a while. But there was no oiling involved. Usage of K&N oil filter was counterproductive as extra suction (from 17 psig boost)  would strip oil from fibers much quicker that N/A engine (@0 psig)  ;D 
Same story with J20A engine.  It ran great on regular paper-cone filter. Later I've switched to AEM dry-flow.
I've used K&N on speed density engine fuel management with good results. But had issues with mass flow engine fuel management when ran K&N in it. 
It is my subjective opinion.
YMMV!  :)
 

   

I have had the same experience with K&N in the performance diesel world. As vehicle have made the shift to MASS air systems oiled filters have become problematic.
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Offline P07r0457

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Re: breath better
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2018, 05:50:48 pm »
It shocks me to see people still fall for the K&N scam.

Don't oil it enough, and it doesn't filter effectively.

Oil it too much, and it causes problems.

What was so wrong with an OEM filter??  For most vehicles, paper-style filters are superior, in every way.  Granted, for our C14s the OEM filter is more expensive than it should be...  But still, it's a small price to pay for effective, guaranteed filtration and no fuss.
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Offline GIant81

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Re: breath better
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2018, 06:08:50 pm »
I pay for it once, and I can clean it later, and don't have to bother with buying a new one all the time. 

I'm sure filters are like oil/tires everyone has their preference. 

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: breath better
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2018, 07:08:27 pm »
It shocks me to see people still fall for the K&N scam.

Don't oil it enough, and it doesn't filter effectively.

Oil it too much, and it causes problems.

What was so wrong with an OEM filter??  For most vehicles, paper-style filters are superior, in every way.  Granted, for our C14s the OEM filter is more expensive than it should be...  But still, it's a small price to pay for effective, guaranteed filtration and no fuss.

Intend to agree somewhat, as I've experienced the people overoiling them since their inception...
I admit, I have used them extensively in cabureted engines and bike I've owned, as it was no big issue to get in periodically, and clean an airbox, or even pull carbs for cleaning, but since I've had the C14 I have resisted, and cautioned about them and the pitfalls..
I am not saying they don't adequately clean the air, what my complaint is, is the propensity of the oil mist coating and causing issue with Airflow sensors, air temp sensor, and any other sensor in the airpath, coupled with the difficulty in cleaning the acyual airbox, and finally the throttl bodies and butterfly plates... I've also experienced great displeasure in the rubber gasket used as a seal, when using them on a C10, and after you attempt to clean one a couple times, the gasket falls off... p.I.t.a.

The C14 K&N filter comes "pre oiled", and its pretty saturated for my liking, then, they toss in a plastic bubble full of oil, and expect people to understand how to use it... and then, everyone over oils them...

I've had a can of Aerosol K&N filter oil spray, that I purchased in 1979.... which even tho I used it on many bikes, is still about half full...
Its easy to control "how much" you spray on, only making a clean filter "pink", and not "sopping wet and red"...
https://www.motosport.com/product/?adpos=1o1&cc=us&creative=188670675565&device=t&gclid=Cj0KCQjw8YXXBRDXARIsAMzsQuXy9Iuxls8LvXaumVs3wSASI5rcVNOHR_wSAHX6LvJDNvEOAJHfzU8aAgbZEALw_wcB&key=KN-Air-Filter-Oil-Spray&matchtype=&mrkgadid=1409985861&mrkgcl=500&network=g&product_id=KNN0005-X001-Y001&psreferrer=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F&pssource=true&rkg_id=0&segment=badger

I say right off, if you buy the filter, buy the spray, and toss those plastic oil filled bubbles in the trash. :rotflmao:
I do find the OEM paper filter to be a fine filter, and as I get about 20k out of them, I have no issue...
There are others as aftermarket ones go, and I may try one this season, but I won't be installing a K&N in this bike ever.

The HiFlow comes to mind, and I think it will be a fine performer...  at 1/3 the price....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hiflo-Air-Filter-HFA2916-Kawasaki-Concours-14-Ninja-ZX-14/311884938880?fits=Make%3AKawasaki%7CModel%3AConcours+14&epid=1237305936&hash=item489dca7e80:g:b5AAAOSwOA1aAe43

Best price...
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hif-hfa2916/overview/
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 07:16:23 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline gsun

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Re: breath better
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2018, 07:36:57 pm »
I recall reading a comparison of the K&N and the OEM. The OEM trapped smaller particles and I figure that's good enough for me. Any filter will catch a bug...

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: breath better
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2018, 07:52:43 pm »
I recall reading a comparison of the K&N and the OEM. The OEM trapped smaller particles and I figure that's good enough for me. Any filter will catch a bug...

Yes, in almost every instance, an OEM paper product will catch smaller particals initially, but will also be rendered to a restricted airflow faster, but its there to clean air, so...
Ironically, the longer a K&N is in place, to a point, it will continually improve to catch smaller and smaller particle, because, well, the openings become blocked, rendering less larger openings, and combined with the oily gunk, do the same until the time it is also fully blocked..
Like I pointed out, my basis of filter choice was not on its ability to trap extremely small particles, its based on not bringing an "oil mist" into my airbox and associated components, which will need to be removed periodically, and painfully so to do.

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Offline Deepsea

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Re: breath better
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2018, 08:16:04 pm »
"I pay for it once, and I can clean it later, and don't have to bother with buying a new one all the time.  I'm sure filters are like oil/tires everyone has their preference."

Yes and no. Several years ago I was contracted to to test a selection of OEM and Aftermarket air filters by one of the bike mag's. Using my FlowMetrics Air Flow Test Bench the results were surprising. K&N mostly passed a higher volume but not always. The C14 OEM filter was within 1 1/2 % of the K&N total air flow. That's when I cleaned out the oily residue in the airbox and went back to the OEM filter. Someone at MamaKaw did an excellent job of designing spec's for the stock filter. It works very well and the only downside is cost. And it's a PITA to change.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: breath better
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2018, 09:09:04 pm »
"I pay for it once, and I can clean it later, and don't have to bother with buying a new one all the time.  I'm sure filters are like oil/tires everyone has their preference."

Yes and no. Several years ago I was contracted to to test a selection of OEM and Aftermarket air filters by one of the bike mag's. Using my FlowMetrics Air Flow Test Bench the results were surprising. K&N mostly passed a higher volume but not always. The C14 OEM filter was within 1 1/2 % of the K&N total air flow. That's when I cleaned out the oily residue in the airbox and went back to the OEM filter. Someone at MamaKaw did an excellent job of designing spec's for the stock filter. It works very well and the only downside is cost. And it's a PITA to change.


I really wish we had someone with an airflo bench available here today, as that HiFlow product really has my curiousity up, and has since I first found them...
I'm pretty sure based on its construction, it will flow as well, if not equally, as good as the OEM, only possible glitch is in its construction, which I can't find to be a real "glitch"... the OEM has "screening" on it, which in a real sense, somewhat reduces "active surface area" in a "calculated" sense, but the HiFlow has a hghly "perforated" plate, only on one side. Some may say it would be more restrictive, but looking closely at it, and calculating its open area, I find it is very close in reality to the OEM... I guess we will never really know, but when I buy the ghing, I'll probably buy 2, and send one down to Steve, for him to run and see what the air/fuel mix and Co figures end up like on the dyno, with the only difference being the filter... it may show something, hopefully.

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Offline Phil

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Re: breath better
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2018, 09:14:19 pm »
The amount of dirt passed through the K&N is enough for me to stay away. I have run them in the past, on a conversion van that was difficult to access the filter, since I had to remove the seat to get the engine cover off, and on a ZX1000R I rode and drag raced. The ZX1000R had two K&N filters. I bought it that way. At the point where the runners in the intake forked off, there was visible erosion from particles. It was very evident.

This chart shows the amount of dirt passed through various filters. The Purolator had a bad seal so the results for is aren't indicative of what it would be with a good seal.


Here is the source for this image. http://nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

I used to be sold on them, but I stick to OEM type filters now.

Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: breath better
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2018, 09:22:13 pm »
Another aspect of superiority of K&N air filters is lack of use in automotive fleet.
It seems K&N is only reserved for gullible consumer.
I've been to meetings where maintenance consumables had been discussed in great details. AEM and K&N filters were mentioned repeatedly as well as performance brakes and suspension parts.
One would think if K&N and alike filtration product are such money-saving, maintenance-downtime reducing investment, the shots-calling management would have accepted the prospect of saving money for end-of-the-year bonuses. But the common wisdom and experience - meany of upper echelon management have extensive automotive background - dictates them to avoid such "snake oil" products like a plague.

Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: breath better
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2018, 09:31:36 pm »
Quote
I really wish we had someone with an airflo bench available here today
How does it measure amount of dirt entering cylinders ?
Part people fail to understand is that oil is not stationary substance. Imbuing of oil happens gradually, thus reducing effectiveness of filtration media. The byproduct imbuing is increase , although temporary, of air flow  which air flow meter will clearly indicate.
Paper filter will not exhibit said imbuing, unless immersed in a liquid media.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 01:08:23 am by RoadKillHeaven »

Online JDSCO

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Re: breath better
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2018, 10:43:03 pm »
When you buy your new Concours, you negotiate a few air and few oil filters in the "deal"
It used to be t-shirts, now it's expendables

When you change your air filter, think about changing your fork fluid
Imagine the particulates your forks circulate after 10k miles

I'm amazed with the dirty filters I've seen, on this forum, over the years
One post showed a filter with 30k miles, it was scary
One post says he changed his fork oil at 50k miles and it still looked good
Really?

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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: breath better
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2018, 02:12:12 am »
Quote
In 60 minutes the AC Filter accumulated 574gms of dirt and passed only 0.4gms. After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms.
Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt.
That is disconcerting...

Offline Deepsea

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Re: breath better
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2018, 03:37:59 am »
K&N (Ken Johnson and Norm McDonald) has been around for over 60 years. It came into being after Malcome Smith purchased their motorcycle dealership in Riverside, CA, near March AFB where I grew up(sort of). In the beginning it was a very good product compared to other options. If you wanted to make the engine breath better there weren't many choices. No filter, velocity stacks with wire screen or questionable dry pod filters. The oil used isn't just "Oil" but has an element of glue included when properly applied and allowed to "Dry". For dirt racing this was a real boon. With the short time of motocross and some desert races they could be cleaned between heats. Additional engine wear didn't matter, the engine got rebuilt frequently anyway. That was then, this is now. OEM filters are much better now and last longer. There is still a place in motorcycling for the K&N air filters but IMHO it's not on a street bike.


Sorry MOB, my flow bench is in storage while I'm in Germany.
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Offline Roger B

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Re: breath better
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2018, 12:24:37 pm »
The amount of dirt passed through the K&N is enough for me to stay away. I have run them in the past, on a conversion van that was difficult to access the filter, since I had to remove the seat to get the engine cover off, and on a ZX1000R I rode and drag raced. The ZX1000R had two K&N filters. I bought it that way. At the point where the runners in the intake forked off, there was visible erosion from particles. It was very evident.

This chart shows the amount of dirt passed through various filters. The Purolator had a bad seal so the results for is aren't indicative of what it would be with a good seal.


Here is the source for this image. http://nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

I used to be sold on them, but I stick to OEM type filters now.


Phil, according to your graph the ACDelco far outperformed all others if I'm reading it correctly, is that correct ?

Offline Phil

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Re: breath better
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2018, 08:31:12 pm »



Phil, according to your graph the ACDelco far outperformed all others if I'm reading it correctly, is that correct ?


That's what it looks like to me. I have seen other tests like this, with similar results, but this is the only one I found quickly. Suffice to say, I think the OEM Kawasaki will be fine for my bike.

Offline Phil

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Re: breath better
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2018, 08:33:28 pm »
Quote
In 60 minutes the AC Filter accumulated 574gms of dirt and passed only 0.4gms. After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms.
Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt.
That is disconcerting...

Yes it is, and based on the erosion of the inside of the intake of my old ZX1000R, I would say it is probably fairly accurate.