Author Topic: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?  (Read 6230 times)

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Offline Rembrant

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C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« on: February 16, 2014, 05:59:18 pm »
Hiya Folks,

I have been curious about the C-14's actual coolant temperatures, and in the few searches I did on here, all I found were other people that were also curious, but still no answers.

Anyway, maybe this information has already been posted and discussed, but I thought I'd check mine out today and see what the actual temps were for each block in the instrument panel. The temperatures below were observed on my 2010 C-14.

There are six (6) blocks, and I'll call the bottom block #1. This is the one with the "C" or "F" in it. Mine has a "C" in it.

Block # 1 comes on at 30*C (86*F)
Block # 2 comes on at 50*C (122*F)
Block # 3 comes on at 70*C (158*F)
Block # 4 comes on at 85*C (185*F)
Block # 5 comes on at 100*C (212*F)
Block # 6 comes on at 110*C (230*F). If this block comes on, you are overheating, and the whole screen will be flashing a temperature warning. The 110*C I am posting here is an estimate...I am not curious enough to overheat my engine to find out, but the FSM gives 110*C (230*F) as the upper test limit. I've never hit the sixth block in either of my two Concours-14's, but I have seen 105*C on several other Kawasaki's I have had, and still never got an over-temp warning. My curiosity was only with normal operating temps...not the overheating limit.

Cooling fans turn on at exactly 95*C (203*F) and shut off at 90*C (194*F).

That's all. I had some time to kill, and I was curious.
Rem ;D
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:17:17 pm by Rembrant »
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Offline gPink

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 06:21:53 pm »
Rem, what was your method of measurement?

Offline Rembrant

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 06:26:40 pm »
Rem, what was your method of measurement?

Hey gPink,

I had the KDS plugged in to the ECU. It has a real-time monitor screen, and real-time graphing option. You can view various engine data while the engine is running. Laptop was sitting beside the bike, so I could watch the actual temp being read by the ECU at the same time the blocks were being illuminated on the dash.
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Offline gPink

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2014, 06:28:59 pm »
Rem, this is the first accurate data on temp I've seen. Thanks. Does the Woolich rig allow access to the temp setting code?

Offline Rembrant

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 06:37:37 pm »
Rem, this is the first accurate data on temp I've seen.

Me too...lol. If the information is out there, I haven't come across it yet. The numbers I posted above are about as accurate as we'll get, since they're directly from the coolant temp sensor on the back of the cyl head. ;D

Thanks. Does the Woolich rig allow access to the temp setting code?

No, unfortunately it does not. I've seen other guys ask the same question, but currently there is no DIY access to the on and off temperature settings.

Maybe Guhl has access to this? I don't know. In my searches I did see a couple people asking, and the suggestions were to contact Guhl. However, I never did come across any results.
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Offline gPink

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 06:45:21 pm »
I'm not in need of a reflash so I'm won't be talking to Mr. Guhl. At one time back at the beginning of the ecu hack Guhl had talked about a setup like Woolich but evidently decided to keep the info proprietary. I appreciate you making what you learn through the kds and the new software public info.
Gary

Offline Rembrant

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 06:51:18 pm »
I appreciate you making what you learn through the kds and the new software public info.
Gary

It's nothing really, I'm just playing around. Gettin' a little bit of cabin fever here...lol. I'm stuck waiting for parts, and / or spring...whatever gets here first...lol.
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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 09:03:20 pm »
This useful info tells me I usually run between 158 and 185 and rarely see 212. I usually don't sit in traffic long enough to see 203 and hear the fan turning on.This is great info. Thanks. :great:
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 09:42:05 pm »
This useful info tells me I usually run between 158 and 185 and rarely see 212. I usually don't sit in traffic long enough to see 203 and hear the fan turning on.This is great info. Thanks. :great:

I'd be between 158 and 185 in the spring and fall, and between 185-212 in the summer months, with the occasional step into the 5th block (212+) in traffic, etc.

The fans will run until their set-point even after the engine is shut off...I assume most guys are aware of this anyway, but just an FYI.
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Offline gPink

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2014, 10:21:25 pm »
My 08 fans shut off with the key.

Offline Rembrant

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2014, 10:27:20 pm »
My 08 fans shut off with the key.

Yes, my 2010 C14 does as well...the fans will still run if the engine is off but the key is still on.
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Offline gPink

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2014, 10:38:19 pm »
OK, mine too. At that point all it's doing is cooling the radiator so I just shut it down.

Offline BDF

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2014, 11:03:44 pm »
Outstanding! Excellent info., thanks for posting this for the rest of us.

When my bike runs warm, it only goes to mid- scale (I guess it is four blocks) and the fans cycle on / off but the temp. gauge remains the same; your data makes it perfectly clear why and how this is happening.

Thanks again Cory.

Brian

Hiya Folks,

I have been curious about the C-14's actual coolant temperatures, and in the few searches I did on here, all I found were other people that were also curious, but still no answers.

<snipped excellent data chart>

Cooling fans turn on at exactly 95*C (203*F) and shut off at 90*C (194*F).

That's all. I had some time to kill, and I was curious.
Rem ;D
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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2014, 11:10:45 pm »
Outstanding! Excellent info., thanks for posting this for the rest of us.

When my bike runs warm, it only goes to mid- scale (I guess it is four blocks) and the fans cycle on / off but the temp. gauge remains the same; your data makes it perfectly clear why and how this is happening.

Thanks again Cory.

Brian


Yup, you can be running along with the temp gauge on the 4th block, and the cooling fans will cycle on and off without changing the gauge.

I had some time to kill today...lol, so I did some experimenting;).

I was pretty sure that I wasn't the only guy that was curious. ;D
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Offline lather

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2014, 11:14:46 pm »
<Snip>The 110*C I am posting here is an estimate...I am not curious enough to overheat my engine to find out, but the FSM gives 110*F as the upper test limit. I've never hit the sixth block in either of my two Concours-14's, but I have seen 105*F on several other Kawasaki's I have had, and still never got an over-temp warning. My curiosity was only with normal operating temps...not the overheating limit.

Great post but want to clarify. I believe all the  *F's quoted above should be *C's, right Rembrandt?

Offline Rembrant

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2014, 11:16:04 pm »
<Snip>The 110*C I am posting here is an estimate...I am not curious enough to overheat my engine to find out, but the FSM gives 110*F as the upper test limit. I've never hit the sixth block in either of my two Concours-14's, but I have seen 105*F on several other Kawasaki's I have had, and still never got an over-temp warning. My curiosity was only with normal operating temps...not the overheating limit.

Great post but want to clarify. I believe all the  *F's quoted above should be *C's, right Rembrandt?

Yessir, that they should...lol. Hang on, I'll go back and correct them asap;).

Thanks,
Rem ;D
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Offline uhoh

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2014, 12:43:45 am »
nice to get reliable information. 

thanks for your work!
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2014, 11:43:02 pm »
Update:

I started the bike today at a cooler temp, and the lower (#1) block in the coolant temp gauge was not illuminated. It did come on at 30*C (86*F), just FYI. I corrected my original post to show this number.

As for Mr. LakeTrax,

Just for the heck of it, it would be interesting to do a cold start with the KDS tool hooked up and see what actual engine temps are achieved before the ecu closes the secondaries(in turn closing the throttle plates) and lowers to the idle to the regular 1150-ish rpms.

I did check this today for the heck of it, and for inquiring minds that need to know...lol, this is what I found:

When I turned the bike on, the coolant temp was at 12*C (54*F) and the ambient temp was 8*C (46*F).

The secondary throttle plates were in position for cold-start at 78% open. With the STP's in this position, the throttle plates are open 2.5%. This is the high idle mechanical position. The secondary throttle stays in this position until the coolant temp reaches 40*C (104*F), and then it starts slowing closing. Once the coolant temp reaches 45*C (113*F), The secondary throttle plates close completely, thus dropping the idle back to normal @ 1150 RPM.

So, by the time the second block in your temp gauge comes on, high idle is completely finished.

This info was a bit difficult to read, since you're trying to watch three moving numbers at the same time...lol. What's interesting, is that the KDS software has a graphing function which allows you to select any three items of data to watch. I was able to select coolant temp, throttle position, and sub-throttle position. You can print the graph when you're done reading it, but I did that part wrong and ended up with a nice PDF with three flat lines on it...lol.

Aren't you glad you know now?...lol.

What's interesting to note is how much the STP's are open to get the high idle of 1500-1600 RPM. I know 78% may seem high, but with another 22% of travel to go, you can see why opening the STP's to 100% has a pretty serious effect on a closed throttle, or barely opened throttle.

Making any sense yet?...lol.

Rem ;D



« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 10:33:38 pm by Rembrant »
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Offline gPink

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2014, 11:47:12 pm »
What, no video?  :)

Offline Rembrant

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2014, 11:49:15 pm »
What, no video?  :)

Boy, have I got a video for you...

Have you ever seen "The Adventures of....."?

Oh never mind...lol. :nananana:
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Offline LakeTrax

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2014, 10:34:22 pm »
 :bravo_2:....... Now we're getting some meat 'n potatoes! >:D :popcorncouple:

We now know that any of the STP map cells at 0-2.5% throttle can have the secondary butterflies safely opened to anywhere below 60-70-ish% right? :017:

Keep in mind that in years past, I've only used the KDS tool to register fobs & tpms sensors on C14's... :(
I'm not sure about its "real-time" diagnostic capabilities with the engine off and ignition on, but the only things left to do would be to have the engine off and try opening the STP's to varying degrees using the WRT just to see exactly where they mechanically engage the throttle plates(60-75%?). Then, find out exactly how far the throttle plates are opened when the STP's are at 100%.

Personally, I would leave all 0% throttle cells for the STP map same as stock... or it sounds easily safe to set them anywhere between 0-50%. At 2.5% throttle, it is definitely now know safe to open them to anywhere below 78%... I'd probably go 50%-70.
As the STP rpm/throttle map cells grow larger, I would have them opening as aggressively as possible. Maybe 100% by 2,500-3,000 rpms? Again, how soon they can be opened to 100% all depends on how far open the throttle plates become opened with the STP's set at 100%. Once you find this throttle plate % mark, I would say it's safe to set all STP cells to 100% all the way to redline. Sweetness is coming!

Thanks again for sharing all of this info and doin' the leg-work bro! :beerchug:
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 10:47:52 pm by LakeTrax »

Offline BDF

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2014, 10:42:34 pm »
Good info.- thanks.

My bike is an '08 and may be different than later years but my fast idle is a range of throttle openings, not just ON / OFF. And mine backs off a bit too soon actually; I start the bike up when it is cold, it runs at perhaps 1,600 to 1,800 for a few seconds and then starts backing down in RPM until the idle speed is actually a bit below normal because the throttle is against the mechanical stop (no fast idle at all) and yet the engine is still cold- always one bar on the gauge and never two (normal operating condition for this bike).

I assume I have seem the max. idle speed possible, limited either in hardware (throttle cam) or in software (never more than XX % open at max. cold temp. that it responds to) as I have started the bike below 10 F.

Brian

Update:

I started the bike today at a cooler temp, and the lower (#1) block in the coolant temp gauge was not illuminated. It did come on at 30*C (86*F), just FYI. I corrected my original post to show this number.

As for Mr. LakeTrax,

Just for the heck of it, it would be interesting to do a cold start with the KDS tool hooked up and see what actual engine temps are achieved before the ecu closes the secondaries(in turn closing the throttle plates) and lowers to the idle to the regular 1150-ish rpms.

I did check this today for the heck of it, and for inquiring minds that need to know...lol, this is what I found:

When I turned the bike on, the coolant temp was at 12*C (54*F) and the ambient temp was 8*C (46*F).

The secondary throttle plates were in position for cold-start at 78% open. With the STP's in this position, the throttle plates are open 2.5%. This is the high idle mechanical position. The secondary throttle stays in this position until the coolant temp reaches 40*C (104*F), and then it starts slowing closing. Once the coolant temp reaches 50*C (122*F), The secondary throttle plates close completely, thus dropping the idle back to normal @ 1150 RPM.

So, by the time the second block in your temp gauge comes on, high idle is finished.

This info was a bit difficult to read, since you're trying to watch three moving numbers at the same time...lol. What's interesting, is that the KDS software has a graphing function which allows you to select any three items of data to watch. I was able to select coolant temp, throttle position, and sub-throttle position. You can print the graph when you're done reading it, but I did that part wrong and ended up with a nice PDF with three flat lines on it...lol.

Aren't you glad you know now?...lol.

What's interesting to note is how much the STP's are open to get the high idle of 1500-1600 RPM. I know 78% may seem high, but with another 22% of travel to go, you can see why opening the STP's to 100% has a pretty serious effect on a closed throttle, or barely opened throttle.

Making any sense yet?...lol.

Rem ;D
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Offline lather

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2014, 11:34:39 pm »
So the STPs have a role in cold start up. I wonder what impact this might have for those of us who have removed the STPs. So far I have had no problems with cold starts since removing the secondaries but i live in the deep south and probably have never tried to start below 30 degrees. Although I have had no problems I have noticed some erratic cold idle speeds.

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2014, 11:55:11 pm »
Keep in mind that in years past, I've only used the KDS tool to register fobs & tpms sensors on C14's... :(
I'm not sure about its "real-time" diagnostic capabilities with the engine off and ignition on, but the only things left to do would be to have the engine off and try opening the STP's to varying degrees using the WRT just to see exactly where they mechanically engage the throttle plates(60-75%?). Then, find out exactly how far the throttle plates are opened when the STP's are at 100%.

Hey Trax, there's actually a very easy way to check this, and I will get to it this weekend (maybe). All I have to do is plug in the KDS, and manually open the STP's from the side of the throttle body assembly, and check the positions of the throttle and the STP's. The throttle and STP positions are displayed in the KDS in volts. Knowing the fully open and fully closed voltages for each, the percentage is easy to calculate.

The KDS doesn't really have a ton of features, but what it does have is useful and works well. It does have some nifty diagnostic tools, like being able to manually fire the fuel pump, or to drop a cylinder while the engine is running when trying to track down a specific issue, individual IGN coil tests, valves, etc.

Only problem is, the C14 is too reliable...lol. Who needs diagnostics anyway??...lol.

PS: Actually, in the diagnostics section, I can test the STP actuator, and make it cycle 0%-100%-0%, so I'll see if I can capture the throttle voltages while doing so. It may all happen too quickly for my little peach pit brain to take it all in anyway;). Stay tuned.

My bike is an '08 and may be different than later years but my fast idle is a range of throttle openings, not just ON / OFF. And mine backs off a bit too soon actually; I start the bike up when it is cold, it runs at perhaps 1,600 to 1,800 for a few seconds and then starts backing down in RPM until the idle speed is actually a bit below normal because the throttle is against the mechanical stop (no fast idle at all) and yet the engine is still cold- always one bar on the gauge and never two (normal operating condition for this bike).

I assume I have seem the max. idle speed possible, limited either in hardware (throttle cam) or in software (never more than XX % open at max. cold temp. that it responds to) as I have started the bike below 10 F.

Brian

Yeah, of course it's hard to know if there were any changes in the cold-start routine between 2008-2010. Anything is possible. They may be similar, but not necessarily identical. I know with my 2010 at least, the STP's went directly to 78% open at the temperature I tested them at, and they stayed there until 40*C, and which time they started gradually closing. So, in my case, the high idle ramped all the way down to the normal idle, or very close to it.

I haven't looked at the ECU's for the 2008-2009 models, or the part numbers to see if they changed between the years. The 2010 C14 has an ECU that is specific to that year only, and it looks like the 2011-2013, and maybe 2014 all have the same ECU's. The ECU's all the way through are the same physically, so the different part numbers indicate different programs....we just don't know what it is that's been changed between models. Once somebody uploads a 2011 C14 BIN file in the WRT software, I'll be able to compare maps and see what the differences are. I don't have access to the first gen model BIN files, so I can't compare them to the 2nd gen's..

Rem ;D
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 12:03:00 am by Rembrant »
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: C-14 Coolant Temp Gauge block(s) actual temperatures?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2014, 11:58:59 pm »
So the STPs have a role in cold start up. I wonder what impact this might have for those of us who have removed the STPs. So far I have had no problems with cold starts since removing the secondaries but i live in the deep south and probably have never tried to start below 30 degrees. Although I have had no problems I have noticed some erratic cold idle speeds.

Nothing to worry about lather. Removing the plates alone doesn't effect the cold start-up. If you remove the plates, the STP mechanism is still completely intact and still does what it's supposed to. The cold-start mechanical action is taking place outside the throttle body assembly.
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