Author Topic: clutch issues  (Read 773 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline flyboy3107

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 11978
  • Membership Level: Active
clutch issues
« on: June 07, 2018, 01:13:50 pm »
Good morning all,
I am having a clutch issue  I hope someone can help with. Riding it last week on a hot day, almost felt like I lost clutch, squishy feeling at lever. Someone had a clutch cable on here, so I purchased that also speed bleeders. Changed everything over and bled system. Clutch feels fine sitting in drive way and starting in first gear, shifting into second or third and so on, the lever feels fine pulling in to change gears, when I release lever almost feels like I lose clutch for a second and the it grabs and the bike almost surges. Someone mentioned the slave cylinder may need replacing. Is there replaceable parts in slave, or should I just look into replacing? Or am i barking up the wrong tree?. No issues before last week when lever went soft.   I have a 2009 ABS with 25000 on it. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks Flyboy3107

Offline Daytona_Mike

  • Sport Tourer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2234
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2018, 04:35:42 pm »
There is an issue where you feel whats called a 'Double Bump' feeling in the clutch lever. This is caused by a broken star spring in the clutch/basket area.
It is not a common failure but I have heard of it happening in the earlier models.
If you shift kind of quickly (release the lever fast) and you feel feedback (Double bump is what most people call it)  in that lever then most likely you do have a broken star spring.  A broken star spring causes the clutch pack to 'rattle' back and forth in the clutch basket.
If so it is not to hard at all to fix but don't wait. Some of the broken star spring  parts can get embedded in clutch components that you dont want it to. Most of the time they just crack at first and later on break apart.

« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 04:39:13 pm by Daytona_Mike »
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline Red Fox

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 628
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: 11691
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2018, 04:51:45 pm »
Doesn't sound like the same issue, but I've used 3 different synth 10w-40 oils and there's a difference in slippery quality leading to clutch howl on takeoff when oil is hot. 
Redline was the worst (most slippery), Mobil 1, then Kawa least howl.

  If you can't ID cause and are using synth oil then switch to mother Kawa brand and see if it helps.

Personal experience info here - not changing this into an oil thread.
TryCities, WA.    2011  C-14, silver.

Offline Boomer

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 989
  • Me dwarfing Vivian
    • Boomers GTR Site
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2018, 06:28:35 pm »
Sounds to me like yer star springs have broken.
They are part of the back torque limiter, or slipper clutch.
George "Boomer" Garratt
Wickford, UK
CDA-007


Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 7444
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2018, 06:44:49 pm »
Good morning all,
I am having a clutch issue  I hope someone can help with. Riding it last week on a hot day, almost felt like I lost clutch, squishy feeling at lever. Someone had a clutch cable on here, so I purchased that also speed bleeders. Changed everything over and bled system. Clutch feels fine sitting in drive way and starting in first gear, shifting into second or third and so on, the lever feels fine pulling in to change gears, when I release lever almost feels like I lose clutch for a second and the it grabs and the bike almost surges. Someone mentioned the slave cylinder may need replacing. Is there replaceable parts in slave, or should I just look into replacing? Or am i barking up the wrong tree?. No issues before last week when lever went soft.   I have a 2009 ABS with 25000 on it. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks Flyboy3107

this sounds like an issue with the master cylinder, on the bars.
There is a small set of holes in the bottom of that resevoir, the one on the right sometimes gets a blockage, caused by some debris, which in turn, restricts the flow back (due to the spring in the slave cylinder for retracting that piston) into the master, to fully relase the pressure.
Probably during the bleed process, this occured, or right before.

I've disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled these master cylinders before (they are a real pain to do, it seems to take 3 hands) but that remedied the issue. Of course, it will result in another full bleed of that system again, after removing and refurbing the master.

as for star springs, I don't recall any needing replaced so far, if there was I missed it, but have seem multiple issues with the piston and return hole on the m/c.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline flyboy3107

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 11978
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2018, 07:59:03 pm »
Think I will take apart Master cylinder before digging into star springs. But those are the two causes I am leaning to. Thanks for all the input. Will keep you all updated

Offline barberman

  • Tricycle
  • Posts: 38
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2018, 09:07:01 pm »
I dug into my clutch (2012 14)  thinking a broken star spring was it and it wasn't. I was lucky because it takes Kawi's special wrench to remove that center nut on the pressure plate. Very expensive to buy and the bike shop didn't want to loan it.  none of the stars had any cracks or defects. But while in there the pressure pushed out the push rod. So after pushing it back in a couple times then reassembling, and bleeding on the slave- that double bump stopped. Air in the slave cylinder I guess.

Offline C. Moore

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1169
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 6662
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2018, 09:40:57 am »
Interesting thread. I get a real soft feel to my clutch lever that comes and goes. I'm going to bleed first and hope to avoid rebuilding the master. I've not read about the star spring going south on the C14. I remember it was/is an issue on the C10.
'10 C14  Dallas, Texas
CDA #523
COG# 6662

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 7444
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2018, 12:38:53 am »
removing the fluid, and sucking out debris from the master during that, then refilling, and flushing by bleeding at least 8 oz thru the system, will cure that.

as i noted, start springs are really not an issue anymore, on a C14 as opposed to a C10, which had one (pre 94) or 2 (94nup).. the C14 has upped the system by increasing the start spring quantity to 4 now, and also, added coil springs and secondary spring plates, along with 12 coil springs to the mechanism, to share the back loading during engine braking... not an issue these days..

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline ddtmoto

  • Road Bike
  • ***
  • Posts: 442
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2018, 01:39:50 am »
I had lots of issues with air somehow entering the clutch system on my '09 for years. I had to bleed the bubbles out every couple of weeks to get a good solid lever. I switched to Castrol LMA brake fluid a few years ago. The system is at least 90% better at keeping air out now... If yours has a soft lever, you are going to have to bleed the system to remove the bubbles. May as well try some different/good fluid...
04 GSXR1000
97 TLS1000
01 DRZ400E
09 Black on black ZG14...

Offline flyboy3107

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 11978
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2018, 12:04:41 pm »
Just an update,

I did bleed system again, still same issue. Removed clutch lever and ball and socket behind lever. There is a silver piece behind that which receives the ball end of piece behind lever. When I push on that there is movement of about 1/16" before I feel resistance. I am thinking that should feel solid with no movement. I do have a master cylinder rebuild kit coming as well as new slave cylinder coming. Hopefully will solve my issues.

Offline JPD

  • Training Wheels
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 12064
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2018, 12:29:33 pm »
That first 1/6" inch of movement is the master cyl piston going past the vent holes that MOB wants you to clean. If it didn't do that you couldn't get fluid into the system when the clutch linings wear, or fluid back to the reservoir when it expands.

Offline flyboy3107

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 11978
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2018, 04:12:11 pm »
New slave cylinder...installed, Master cylinder...removed, cleaned, and reinstalled. Bled system, and then bled some more, no air. Still having issue with bump at end of travel on shift lever. Think it's time to pull of clutch cover and see how the springs look.

Offline flyboy3107

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 11978
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2018, 05:21:38 pm »
Just to keep everyone updated, it is a broken star spring. Pulled clutch cover and basket cover, it was wedged in, stayed inside basket which I'm thankful for. I'm this far into it, should I do new plates? 23000 miles. Thanks!

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 7444
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2018, 07:14:25 pm »
Just to keep everyone updated, it is a broken star spring. Pulled clutch cover and basket cover, it was wedged in, stayed inside basket which I'm thankful for. I'm this far into it, should I do new plates? 23000 miles. Thanks!

plates are pretty robust, just make sure you get ALL the broken star parts removed.. check all the springs, there's 4, 2 different part numbers, 2 of each, stacked.. 39130-1078 and 39130-1079, the -1078's go in first, and the -1079's on top of the -1078's, all have to be staggered with regards to the 'tabs" that locate them with the shaft splines, refer to the FSM on how the clutch plates stack also, very important, they do have a specific order and location.

so far, you are the first person I have heard of with a broken C14 starspring...
winner winner chicken dinner... just kidding, good catch, I think the plates should be fine if you didn't have the issue for any long period prior to fixing it.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 07:23:24 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline flyboy3107

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 11978
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2018, 08:48:19 pm »
Just to keep everyone updated, it is a broken star spring. Pulled clutch cover and basket cover, it was wedged in, stayed inside basket which I'm thankful for. I'm this far into it, should I do new plates? 23000 miles. Thanks!

plates are pretty robust, just make sure you get ALL the broken star parts removed.. check all the springs, there's 4, 2 different part numbers, 2 of each, stacked.. 39130-1078 and 39130-1079, the -1078's go in first, and the -1079's on top of the -1078's, all have to be staggered with regards to the 'tabs" that locate them with the shaft splines, refer to the FSM on how the clutch plates stack also, very important, they do have a specific order and location.

so far, you are the first person I have heard of with a broken C14 starspring...
winner winner chicken dinner... just kidding, good catch, I think the plates should be fine if you didn't have the issue for any long period prior to fixing it.
Thanks for info. I did know there were 4, two different numbers, ordered them and a new nut all in about 30.00. Do the six springs have to go back in same location? I have them marked so I do. I pulled the plates and discs out to inspect, and kept them in order as to how they came out. I have a manual that shows tolerances for springs and plates and discs, everything well within tolerance. The star that broke was one of the three tabs, and a clean break, waiting to receive parts before I take it apart. I did just get Steve's flash, and really enjoying it! I'm wondering if that may have had something to do with it. Thanks for the help. This site and you have been very helpful. Scott

Offline JaL3

  • Tricycle
  • Posts: 21
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2018, 10:19:49 pm »
Hijacking this thread just a bit; I have an issue with my clutch feel too. When the bike sits overnight, there's a lot of "play" on the lever before the clutch disengages. After pulling on the lever for about 10-20 times to midway of my morning commute, the play mostly goes away. I usually ride the bake during lunch break so the clutch is fine when I leave work.

I'm thinking air in the system maybe? The bike is 2016 with 8k Miles on it so I don't think there's any contamination/debris but I guess it's possible too. Any thoughts or recommendations?
Regards, Jay with 2016 ZG1400, Ivan's flash, seat modded by Spencer, Puig spoiler, Canyon Cages, Bar Risers, Rigid Industries aux LEDs, Switchback LEDs front and rear, Two Brothers Black Series Slip-On.

A skeptic that believes anything when provided with evidence.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 7444
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2018, 11:06:59 pm »
Just to keep everyone updated, it is a broken star spring. Pulled clutch cover and basket cover, it was wedged in, stayed inside basket which I'm thankful for. I'm this far into it, should I do new plates? 23000 miles. Thanks!

plates are pretty robust, just make sure you get ALL the broken star parts removed.. check all the springs, there's 4, 2 different part numbers, 2 of each, stacked.. 39130-1078 and 39130-1079, the -1078's go in first, and the -1079's on top of the -1078's, all have to be staggered with regards to the 'tabs" that locate them with the shaft splines, refer to the FSM on how the clutch plates stack also, very important, they do have a specific order and location.

so far, you are the first person I have heard of with a broken C14 starspring...
winner winner chicken dinner... just kidding, good catch, I think the plates should be fine if you didn't have the issue for any long period prior to fixing it.
Thanks for info. I did know there were 4, two different numbers, ordered them and a new nut all in about 30.00. Do the six springs have to go back in same location? I have them marked so I do. I pulled the plates and discs out to inspect, and kept them in order as to how they came out. I have a manual that shows tolerances for springs and plates and discs, everything well within tolerance. The star that broke was one of the three tabs, and a clean break, waiting to receive parts before I take it apart. I did just get Steve's flash, and really enjoying it! I'm wondering if that may have had something to do with it. Thanks for the help. This site and you have been very helpful. Scott

 ya need to send Steve a nasty letter about how his flash caused your clutch issue..... :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

just kidding...

you are confusing me about the "6 springs" thing...

I assume you are talking about the 4 star springs, so yes, they need to be located as shown, and clocked to get the tabs in correct locations.
If you are talking about the 12 coiled springs, behind that whole mess, those are not location sensitive., nor are the ones first removed when pulling the pressure plate off. stick the plate stack in a ziploc bag, and pour in some clean oil to keep them soaked, so when you get your new springs you can resume assembly.

as for JAL3's comment,
you have to blame Ivan for his flash...
again, just kidding... :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

your issue is air/bleeding related, and possibly a bleeder not sealing well.. did you install speed bleeders?, not saying to install them, just asking.  If not, do a flush and system purge, it's due, and if you can't get pressure back, seek assistance from your dealership, you are under warranty, and they should assist... you paid for that.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline flyboy3107

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 11978
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2018, 11:44:33 pm »
I was referring to the six springs you take off to get to the whole mess. And yes I do realize the 4 stars need to go in a certain order. The service manual shows 2 of the same number going first, then two of the other number. Thanks for info about oil in Ziploc, I just have them sitting on bike. I will do that.

Offline JaL3

  • Tricycle
  • Posts: 21
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2018, 04:51:48 pm »

as for JAL3's comment,
you have to blame Ivan for his flash...
again, just kidding... :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

your issue is air/bleeding related, and possibly a bleeder not sealing well.. did you install speed bleeders?, not saying to install them, just asking.  If not, do a flush and system purge, it's due, and if you can't get pressure back, seek assistance from your dealership, you are under warranty, and they should assist... you paid for that.

Thanks MOB, that's what I suspected. I'll bleed it and if that doesn't help, I'll take it to the dealer. I ride almost daily so I don't want to leave it with the dealer if I don't have to. First time I have this issue during my >30 years of riding. Darn.
Regards, Jay with 2016 ZG1400, Ivan's flash, seat modded by Spencer, Puig spoiler, Canyon Cages, Bar Risers, Rigid Industries aux LEDs, Switchback LEDs front and rear, Two Brothers Black Series Slip-On.

A skeptic that believes anything when provided with evidence.

Offline JaL3

  • Tricycle
  • Posts: 21
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2018, 09:40:29 pm »
Bled the master and slave yesterday, seems to work fine now.  :great:
Regards, Jay with 2016 ZG1400, Ivan's flash, seat modded by Spencer, Puig spoiler, Canyon Cages, Bar Risers, Rigid Industries aux LEDs, Switchback LEDs front and rear, Two Brothers Black Series Slip-On.

A skeptic that believes anything when provided with evidence.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 7444
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2018, 10:44:42 pm »
Bled the master and slave yesterday, seems to work fine now.  :great:

Just a generic bleeding note, always bleed the furthest bleeder from the master first, then work back to the master...
air bubbles float, and migrate upwards. :great:

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline flyboy3107

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 11978
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2018, 11:42:47 pm »
Bled the master and slave yesterday, seems to work fine now.  :great:

Just a generic bleeding note, always bleed the furthest bleeder from the master first, then work back to the master...
air bubbles float, and migrate upwards. :great:
Any tricks on getting that nut off of star springs? I've tried a hammer drill, a wrench with bar for leverage, all to no avail. Any help?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 7444
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2018, 12:18:51 am »
Bled the master and slave yesterday, seems to work fine now.  :great:

Just a generic bleeding note, always bleed the furthest bleeder from the master first, then work back to the master...
air bubbles float, and migrate upwards. :great:
Any tricks on getting that nut off of star springs? I've tried a hammer drill, a wrench with bar for leverage, all to no avail. Any help?

SIGNIFICANT "OTHER', or spouse, sitting on bike on center stand, bike in first gear, and grind the end of the hex socket flat, to remove any semblence of an internal chamfer, have S/O press hard on rear brakes, while you use a 24" 1/2 breaker bar, and rubber mallet, or an electric impact driver (1/2" drive) and break it free, if doing it solo, jamb a 2x4 thru the rear wheel, locking the 'spokes' to the swing arm, it does take a bit of pressure, but it will pop free. have not done a C14, but the C10 socket required was actually an equivalent of an SAE socket size (fit tight, but that was a good snug fit)

let us know how this works..

also, mind the friction plates, thier locations in the stack, and the orientation of the outermost one...

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline flyboy3107

  • Mini Bike
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 11978
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: clutch issues
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2018, 12:27:57 am »
Thanks,
I will try it and let you know. My last resort is cutting it off. I have ordered a new one. Don't want to go that route.