Author Topic: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.  (Read 3271 times)

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Offline JDSCO

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2017, 09:01:36 pm »
I read about this cocktail years ago, here in COG. It does work. Thanks Steve.
It's not practical to perform annual coolant changes on most bikes.
I don't have access to DI water, nuclear reactors or whatever, but I do have access to distilled water and a motorcycle that's really easy to swap coolant.
I run this "cocktail" at 25% with 10% Water Wetter in my KTM 990, a v-twin that's prone to run on the hot side, on single track.
It's a bike that's prone to corrosion/erosion in the water pump cavity caused by old, contaminated coolant.
I do mostly <20mph trails, 80 to 50deg F. This cocktail allows cooler running with minimal airflow and my single cooling fan cycles on and off vs being on constantly.
I change the coolant, 2.1 liters, annually.
Many 990 riders mount an aux fan and a 190 vs 210deg fan thermo switch. I run the stock, single fan/210deg system.

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Offline PeteTN_zgtr

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2017, 11:32:51 pm »

[/quote]

I don't know what temps you work with, for all I know you work with nuclear reactors, but I would assume if water is the primary coolant medium, and the temps are below boiling, then water wetter or a similar chemical compound would be useless.

 Steve
[/quote]

Actually Steve controlled moderate boiling will increase cooling because of the heat absorbed to turn the water to steam. Obviously too much at a localized area would not be good but with really high velocity flow boiling helps. I'm not referring to engines though but some of the test equipment we work with a little moderate boiling is allowable. Bulk water temperature is way below boiling but localized boiling is OK if the flow velocity keeps new cool water coming.


Offline olie

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2017, 01:00:25 am »


I don't know what temps you work with, for all I know you work with nuclear reactors, but I would assume if water is the primary coolant medium, and the temps are below boiling, then water wetter or a similar chemical compound would be useless.

 Steve
[/quote]

Actually Steve controlled moderate boiling will increase cooling because of the heat absorbed to turn the water to steam. Obviously too much at a localized area would not be good but with really high velocity flow boiling helps. I'm not referring to engines though but some of the test equipment we work with a little moderate boiling is allowable. Bulk water temperature is way below boiling but localized boiling is OK if the flow velocity keeps new cool water coming.
[/quote]

If you reduce the boiling point to take advantage of the Heat of Vaporization of the water by adding the water wetter or other voodoo stuff, you will have consumption of water... I don't think you want that in a motorcycle engine, especially in a C14 that is a pain to add coolant. Industrial heat exchangers can easily add water to make up the proper level.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2017, 01:33:52 am »

Actually Steve controlled moderate boiling will increase cooling because of the heat absorbed to turn the water to steam. Obviously too much at a localized area would not be good but with really high velocity flow boiling helps. I'm not referring to engines though but some of the test equipment we work with a little moderate boiling is allowable. Bulk water temperature is way below boiling but localized boiling is OK if the flow velocity keeps new cool water coming.

That wouldn't be good in an engine. the block and heads are generally sand cast and flow around the combustion chambers is challenging already. Engineers and hotrodders have often resorted to steam holes and adding fittings to get coolant to flow in hot spots where flow is often stalled and insufficient. As I stated in my original post, I have dealt with aluminum heads that are pin holed right through to the exhaust ports. The aluminum is turned to mush, and there's nothing to even weld to. Plus what must be considered is that the temp spikes will cause detonation issues. Boiling in a pipe that you can continually flow through may be acceptable, but boiling in a cylinder head is really not allowable for a number of reasons.
Steve
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Offline Mcfly

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2017, 01:51:29 am »
I used Steve's coolant cocktail for 3 years with excellent results.  This mix DOES work. 

I was going to use  Engine Ice, but it is NOT an additive, requires flushing the cooling system completely, then using ONLY Engine Ice as your coolant.  Problem there is, what if you're on the road and have a cooling issue?  Can't top off with regular antifreeze.... 

So, for simplicity, and all around ease of use, Steve's mix rates purdy high.

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Offline PeteTN_zgtr

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2017, 09:56:53 am »

Actually Steve controlled moderate boiling will increase cooling because of the heat absorbed to turn the water to steam. Obviously too much at a localized area would not be good but with really high velocity flow boiling helps. I'm not referring to engines though but some of the test equipment we work with a little moderate boiling is allowable. Bulk water temperature is way below boiling but localized boiling is OK if the flow velocity keeps new cool water coming.

That wouldn't be good in an engine. the block and heads are generally sand cast and flow around the combustion chambers is challenging already. Engineers and hotrodders have often resorted to steam holes and adding fittings to get coolant to flow in hot spots where flow is often stalled and insufficient. As I stated in my original post, I have dealt with aluminum heads that are pin holed right through to the exhaust ports. The aluminum is turned to mush, and there's nothing to even weld to. Plus what must be considered is that the temp spikes will cause detonation issues. Boiling in a pipe that you can continually flow through may be acceptable, but boiling in a cylinder head is really not allowable for a number of reasons.
Steve

Yeah completely agree! Just adding an interesting side-note. . .   We deal with water cooled test equipment like instrumentation systems that sit behind a jet engine in afterburner.  Water velocity is high.   

Yeah seems like I remember reading about the steam holes in the heads of 400 small block Chevy's.

BTW thanks for sharing your coolant cocktail recipe again.

Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2017, 10:16:34 am »
This discussion is like two gearhead-wannabe arguing who's got better butt dyno in regard to which of their tuned-up ricers has more MOJO.

Without empirical  data, i.e. dynamometer testing with gas analyzer, these two have dipped their toes in a pool of conjecture.   

But...But...But...Who doesn't love to gaze upon a tuned-up with pair of turbos, nitrous, tetrad tipped - spewing deafening cacophony of rich-mixture exhaust - car so slammed that its front "splitter" can fillet a well worn road kill in half? Right!  ;)


Cheers...
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 10:19:38 am by RoadKillHeaven »

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2017, 10:17:33 am »

Yeah seems like I remember reading about the steam holes in the heads of 400 small block Chevy's.



  True on the smallblock 400. I built many of them.

  When I built my 1109cc engine for Shoodaben (you c-14 guys should visit my web page and read up on that engine) I had to drill steam holes in the concours head to match with the zx11 block. The problem in the block was that the cylinders were so close water couldn't flow around them and was trapped. the newer / larger zx engines, the zzr12 and the zx12, both had siamesed cylinders because again, there was no more room left to bore, and kaw had to nikasil the aluminum to go as large as they did. Steam holes saved the day. Steve
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2017, 10:27:07 am »
Quote
and kaw had to nikasil the aluminum to go as large as they did
That is why low quality fuels should be avoided in Kaw engines. 

Offline JimBob

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2017, 04:53:27 pm »
Quote
and kaw had to nikasil the aluminum to go as large as they did
That is why low quality fuels should be avoided in Kaw engines.


Can you expand on this Roadkill? How does poor quality fuel (<definition needed>) affect Nikasil?

Offline Mark

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #60 on: September 19, 2017, 09:09:36 pm »
I'm so glad I renewed my membership today....will be doing this soon! Thanks Steve.
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2017, 07:35:54 am »
Quote
and kaw had to nikasil the aluminum to go as large as they did

That is why low quality fuels should be avoided in Kaw engines.



Can you expand on this Roadkill? How does poor quality fuel (<definition needed>) affect Nikasil?

https://www.torquecars.com/bmw/nikasil-issue.php
http://jagrepair.com/NikasilandSulfur.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil


Cheers...
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 07:39:38 am by RoadKillHeaven »

Offline Jorge

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2017, 09:46:49 am »
I thought the whole point of water wetter was to keep water in contact and flooding past the nooks and crannies in the engine and keep the temperature below the boiling point of the cocktail?

Offline Ranger Jim

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2017, 10:21:08 am »
Water Wetter (basically) reduces the surface tension of water thereby making the creation of bubbles less. This keeps more of the water in contact with the hot areas enabling the water to transfer the heat.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2017, 10:24:09 am »
I thought the whole point of water wetter was to keep water in contact and flooding past the nooks and crannies in the engine and keep the temperature below the boiling point of the cocktail?

 it is... is there something in this thread leading you to think otherwise? Steve
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Offline Mcfly

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2017, 08:00:46 pm »
I thought the whole point of water wetter was to keep water in contact and flooding past the nooks and crannies in the engine and keep the temperature below the boiling point of the cocktail?

 it is... is there something in this thread leading you to think otherwise? Steve

Mention of steam.... water wetter lowering boiling point and similar discussions add confusion.

Good to remember the cocktail has coolant in the mix to raise the boiling point, as well as a pressurized system to
Increase that boiling point further....  well above normal operating temps.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2017, 09:18:37 pm »


Mention of steam.... water wetter lowering boiling point and similar discussions add confusion.

Good to remember the cocktail has coolant in the mix to raise the boiling point, as well as a pressurized system to
Increase that boiling point further....  well above normal operating temps.

  Ahh, I didn't get that. The mention of steam holes was illustrating that sand cast cooling jackets typically have hot spots due to flow impediments, and sometimes other methods need to be employed to relieve the cavitation. Since we're not drilling on our c-14 heads, we need to rely on the goodness that water wetter brings to the cocktail. Steve
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2017, 03:52:19 am »
Is C14 open or closed deck head/block?


Offline connie_rider

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2017, 01:37:08 pm »
Ya'll are overthinkin'.   :sign0023:

His mix has been used for years in the C-10's, and helped..

Just do it, or don't..   :popcorn:

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Offline barberman

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2017, 05:33:58 pm »
THIS IS OUTSTANDING information. A buddy swears by ice" but at around fity bucks a quart. I think c14's take 31/2? This sounds like a great option.  This is one of the best discussions i've read.  -- I have joined in the forum here, but this talk makes me seriously consider joining up fully.  Which speaks volumes if you know me. Not a team player" as such..Thanks guys! K.Jenson.

Offline JDSCO

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2017, 07:10:21 pm »
Ya'll are overthinkin'.   :sign0023:
Just do it, or don't..   :popcorn:
Ride safe, Ted

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2017, 07:26:31 pm »
 :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:  ... it's the reasons forums exist.  :-[

Steve
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2017, 11:23:39 pm »
Excellent info.

A few years back, we got called in to solve an equipment issue for that really big coffee chain you see on every corner.

They were tired of their mineral filled water damaging expensive coffee making quipment.  Aparently the sediment would attach itself, to the warmer, and make it impossible to reach required temperatures.  Very important when each location needs to serve the identical cup of coffee.

Of course, the customer knows best.  They wanted the cleanest, most pure water mankind has ever known, and they paid to get it.

Within three months, they complained of defective copper tubing..it leaked.  Pinholes. After the tubing was replaced, sections of the machines were disappearing.  Holes in steel.

Now they use a nice, clean, filtered and ph balanced water.

Offline rrsperry

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2017, 11:46:20 pm »


I don't know what temps you work with, for all I know you work with nuclear reactors, but I would assume if water is the primary coolant medium, and the temps are below boiling, then water wetter or a similar chemical compound would be useless.

 Steve
[/quote

Actually Steve controlled moderate boiling will increase cooling because of the heat absorbed to turn the water to steam. Obviously too much at a localized area would not be good but with really high velocity flow boiling helps. I'm not referring to engines though but some of the test equipment we work with a little moderate boiling is allowable. Bulk water temperature is way below boiling but localized boiling is OK if the flow velocity keeps new cool water coming.
[/quote]

Ahhhh, takes me back to Nuc power school. The departure from nucleate boiling...

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2017, 02:11:51 am »
Quote
and kaw had to nikasil the aluminum to go as large as they did
That is why low quality fuels should be avoided in Kaw engines.
My KTM's run    Nikasil cylinders.

All fuels today are ALL  very very low  to no sulfur fuels  in the U.S.  and Canada (and Europe)   including all diesel fuels so it seems to me this point is no longer valid.
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