Author Topic: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.  (Read 4543 times)

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« on: September 15, 2017, 10:55:38 am »
     Yesterday I received an email from someone in Arizona asking about lowering the fan switch temp to help his bike run at lower temps. I think he was surprised by the answer, and I wanted to share it with everyone.

    I am a professional mechanic in Florida. I specialized for decades in rebuilding automotive engines, and almost all of the engines I rebuilt were originally victims of overheating. As such, I studied up on how cooling systems work. I found along the way that most folks (read :nobody except engineers) really don't understand how the cooling systems work. I learned a very effective modification a couple decades ago, that I currently use in every vehicle I have, and I never have heat issues. Ever.

   Let me also say that what I'm going to share is not new to this forum. I shared this back in '05 with the c-10 guys, and if you ask the c-10 guys who have been around, this has been nicknamed "Steve's coolant cocktail". So this isn't new, just maybe new to you  ;).

   First, let's get a few things out of the way with some education.

  1) All a cooling system is doing is transferring BTU's from the engine to the ambient air. The more efficient that transfer is, the better the system will shed heat.

  2) Coolant is very poor at heat transfer. Water is the most effective.

  3) Every cooling system has a finite ability to shed heat, and that ability depends on the ambient air temps. So a cooling system in 70* ambient air may be able cool the coolant down to the thermostat cycling temp, but at 100* ambient it probably won't be able to do so unless it has a lot of surface area and flow volume in the radiator.

  4) lowering a thermostat temp isn't going to help the cooling system shed heat, or lower the operating temps unless the radiator has the ability to cool down to that temp. In many cases raising the thermostat temp is the thing to do as it provides the most linear and consistent operating temps for the engine.

  5) lowering coolant temps by thermostat opening temp will result in a less efficient engine. Heat in an engine expands the metal producing better cylinder sealing, helps the oil circulate with less pumping loss, and aids combustion. All within controlled parameters, of course.

  6) Radiators shed heat by airflow through them, as they transfer the heat from the cooling medium to the air. Changing electric fan cycle temps is largely an exercise in futility, as at about 25 mph the forward movement of the bike meets the airflow ability of the fans. Any higher speed than that produces more airflow than the fans provide, so lowering fan "on" temps has no effect on the coolant temps. 

  7) lowering fan cycle temp settings really only effects the cooling system when in traffic, with low available airflow. Typically fans will come on around 210* and off around 190. the temp will never go below the thermostat setting. Lowering the "on" temp will only result in the heat blowing on the rider for a longer duration as the fan comes on sooner and stays on til the preset off temp is reached. Remember that once on, the fan will stay on till the setting temps drops to the pre-set off temp, which HAS to higher than the thermostat temp, or the fan will run all the time once the thermostat opens. If the original ON temp was 210*, and the new temp is 195* the max temp difference the rider would feel is 15* BUT with the lower setting the fan will cycle more and blow that 195* heated air onto you for a longer time. Pick your poison, there's no free rides... as long as the engine is running it's releasing and  shedding the same BTU's.

  I'm going to stop here and pick up on the next post.

  Steve


 

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2017, 11:37:03 am »
 To continue:

  So with those facts established, what can be done to make a cooling system more efficient in it's ability to shed heat? We need to maximize the coolant medium's ability to gain and lose BTU's (heat).

   As stated previously typical automotive coolants are poor at heat transfer. Slow to gain and slow to lose heat. Water is the best medium, but it has the limitation of a lower boiling point and potential for nucleate boiling, which is localized hot spots generally around the combustion chamber which can over time erode metal, particularly aluminum. I have personally seen aluminum cylinder heads with pinholes from the cooling passages to the exhaust ports from said hot spot erosion. Water can also freeze, and that's not good, either.

   So what to do?

   Here is the BEST cooling medium I have ever used... low cost and highly effective.

   Use appx 15% non silicate coolant of your choice--- about 16 to 20 oz.

      4-6 oz of a product named "water wetter"
 
      The balance of fill will be DISTILLED water.

    So here's why it works as well as it does... the water is really the heat transfer product, which is why we want such a high concentration of it. We need distilled water so as to not introduce minerals that can attack the metals of the cooling system. The coolant is to prevent freezing down to maybe 20*, raise the boiling point and also it will prevent metal damage. The water wetter is a surfactant that allows the water to flow into the small crevices of the cooling passages (water jacket) and prevents the water from localized nucleate boiling. It also will help keep the system clean and prevent metal erosion.

    Some might look at the "boiling point" being lowered and think that's a problem. Not so, because this cocktail does such a good job shedding heat the boiling point is a non issue.

   If you are in a climate that has cold winters, you may want to bump up the coolant volume to maybe 30%, but understand you're reducing the ability to shed heat, too. Of course if you're going to live in North Dakota but do an August ride through Death Valley, you may want to change the coolant medium at some point to match the prevailing conditions. Again, no free ride, you're up against the  ability of the radiator to exchange heat and the coolant to provide it's antifreeze properties.

    If you set up your cooling system with this "coolant cocktail" you'll find the cooling system to be much more efficient at shedding heat in ALL circumstances. You will find the running temps in very hot ambient conditions will come down to the mechanical ability of the radiator to shed heat. You'll also find the fan cycling times to be minimized because of the efficient heat transfer.

   I realize there are newer products out there. Engine Ice, etc, and honestly since I hit on the above cocktail I haven't messed with anything else. Those products may work well, but water is cheap and the cocktail works great.

   I hope some of the c-10 guys who have been around for a long time and used this will chime in. This isn't rocket science, but it works. I included the "educational portion" because I find educated guys make better decisions and don't fall for "fixes" that look good on the surface but fall short in reality.

  Steve
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Offline Jerdurr

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2017, 12:12:38 pm »
Awesome write up Steve. And you are saying you never had an issue with reduced boiling point, even in the scorching heat of Florida? Do you recommend distilled, or de-ionized water?
Best,

JD

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2017, 12:22:37 pm »
Awesome write up Steve. And you are saying you never had an issue with reduced boiling point, even in the scorching heat of Florida? Do you recommend distilled, or de-ionized water?

 Never an issue, in any vehicle, even towing a camping trailer from florida to texas in july with a hotrodded 4 cylinder 4runner and 4.88 gears. When my c-14 is on my dyno it cools off WAY faster than it did with the stock coolant, and riding in the full daytime summer heat it stays at 2 bars.  Yes, distilled water, pick it up at the grocery store. Steve
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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2017, 12:23:12 pm »
Good Info Steve!

If I can be devils advocate for just a moment, can you explain why all manufacturers recommend a 50/50 dilution of water and
Coolant vs. the cocktail??

Is it simply the "seat belt law" principle:  make the rule for Everyone in all regions and environments, so the manf's liability
is reduced??

Do we know if any of the aftermarket coolants are based on this type of mixture??

Personally, I ride in cold weather (35+degf), but when my bike sits in even COLDER weather, I would worry about "freezing".

This is one reason I've never used straight water wetter, because I don't want to FORGET, and crack my heads when the temp drops in the off-season.  Also, I'm lazy and cheap, and don't want to have to change coolant every season.  :-[

Again -- not being antagonistic, just offering a counter-point to the obvious questions.  :beerchug:

gr

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2017, 12:30:39 pm »
Good Info Steve!

If I can be devils advocate for just a moment, can you explain why all manufacturers recommend a 50/50 dilution of water and
Coolant vs. the cocktail??

Is it simply the "seat belt law" principle:  make the rule for Everyone in all regions and environments, so the manf's liability
is reduced??

Do we know if any of the aftermarket coolants are based on this type of mixture??

Personally, I ride in cold weather (35+degf), but when my bike sits in even COLDER weather, I would worry about "freezing".

This is one reason I've never used straight water wetter, because I don't want to FORGET, and crack my heads when the temp drops in the off-season.  Also, I'm lazy and cheap, and don't want to have to change coolant every season.  :-[

Again -- not being antagonistic, just offering a counter-point to the obvious questions.  :beerchug:

gr

  You're not offering counter points, I covered all that except the 50/50 question. And I would guess the answer to that is the manufacturer sells you a vehicle that they expect won't be maintained and they don't know the climate it will be used in, so 50/50 is splitting the baby in the middle. Steve
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2017, 12:34:17 pm »
I've been wanting to add this to my C-10 for years.
Just never got around to it, and didn't know the exact mix.
Thanks for posting this again.

I'll take a stab at why 50/50 is recommended.

50/50 is the best mixture to prevent freezing problems.
Adding "or" decreasing the amount of antifreeze, raises the freezing point a bit..
   {Some Antifreeze Containers have a chart that shows the freeze protection based on mixture. (50/50 is shown to be optimum)}.

Living in Houston, I don't really need to be protected from freezing to  -50*...

Ride safe, Ted

PS: MOB Is correct. 50/50 is also an easier ratio for folks to understand..
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 02:29:41 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline EZ

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2017, 12:53:44 pm »
     Yesterday I received an email from someone in Arizona asking about lowering the fan switch temp to help his bike run at lower temps. I think he was surprised by the answer, and I wanted to share it with everyone.

    I am a professional mechanic in Florida. I specialized for decades in rebuilding automotive engines, and almost all of the engines I rebuilt were originally victims of overheating. As such, I studied up on how cooling systems work. I found along the way that most folks (read :nobody except engineers) really don't understand how the cooling systems work. I learned a very effective modification a couple decades ago, that I currently use in every vehicle I have, and I never have heat issues. Ever.

   Let me also say that what I'm going to share is not new to this forum. I shared this back in '05 with the c-10 guys, and if you ask the c-10 guys who have been around, this has been nicknamed "Steve's coolant cocktail". So this isn't new, just maybe new to you  ;).

   First, let's get a few things out of the way with some education.

  1) All a cooling system is doing is transferring BTU's from the engine to the ambient air. The more efficient that transfer is, the better the system will shed heat.

  2) Coolant is very poor at heat transfer. Water is the most effective.

  3) Every cooling system has a finite ability to shed heat, and that ability depends on the ambient air temps. So a cooling system in 70* ambient air may be able cool the coolant down to the thermostat cycling temp, but at 100* ambient it probably won't be able to do so unless it has a lot of surface area and flow volume in the radiator.

  4) lowering a thermostat temp isn't going to help the cooling system shed heat, or lower the operating temps unless the radiator has the ability to cool down to that temp. In many cases raising the thermostat temp is the thing to do as it provides the most linear and consistent operating temps for the engine.

  5) lowering coolant temps by thermostat opening temp will result in a less efficient engine. Heat in an engine expands the metal producing better cylinder sealing, helps the oil circulate with less pumping loss, and aids combustion. All within controlled parameters, of course.

  6) Radiators shed heat by airflow through them, as they transfer the heat from the cooling medium to the air. Changing electric fan cycle temps is largely an exercise in futility, as at about 25 mph the forward movement of the bike meets the airflow ability of the fans. Any higher speed than that produces more airflow than the fans provide, so lowering fan "on" temps has no effect on the coolant temps. 

  7) lowering fan cycle temp settings really only effects the cooling system when in traffic, with low available airflow. Typically fans will come on around 210* and off around 190. the temp will never go below the thermostat setting. Lowering the "on" temp will only result in the heat blowing on the rider for a longer duration as the fan comes on sooner and stays on til the preset off temp is reached. Remember that once on, the fan will stay on till the setting temps drops to the pre-set off temp, which HAS to higher than the thermostat temp, or the fan will run all the time once the thermostat opens. If the original ON temp was 210*, and the new temp is 195* the max temp difference the rider would feel is 15* BUT with the lower setting the fan will cycle more and blow that 195* heated air onto you for a longer time. Pick your poison, there's no free rides... as long as the engine is running it's releasing and  shedding the same BTU's.

  I'm going to stop here and pick up on the next post.

  Steve


 

^^^ That ^^^ right there boys and girls is why I have issue with people trying to justify $37.00/ year for membership! Just because its free for forum subscribers doesn't justify NOT supporting the club.  As always Steve...  :beerchug: :beerchug:
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2017, 07:35:01 pm »
Thank you Steve, for taking the time to bring this all back to refresh everyones minds on how coolants "really" work...
I agree 1000% with your explanations, and have always tried to explain this to others, that the coolants ability to absorb, and release heat effectively is the most important part of the equation...
Recently some discussion took place about "waterless coolants", and the benefits extolled by the manufacturers, which I clearly saw thru as a non choice on my part, due to the reduced capacity for absorption and release of BTU's...

As for the 50/50 mix, its befome industry standard so to speak, simply because half the USA see freezing temps in the winter... and probably 25% see below zero temps, sometimes for monthes... the mix prevents slushing and freezing, which tends to ruin things like freeze plugs, water pumps, and radiators... oh, and heater cores...
50/50 just makes it simpler to provide a mix, generically satisfying the temp ranges across the USA, but as we know, if you live in a "hot zone" mixing your own is a good choice

Thanks again, for wise words... :beerchug:

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Offline gpd323

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2017, 08:25:33 pm »
I have used Red lines water Wetter in all me vehicles for 20+ years now. I remember when it came in a bottle in granular form and you have to mix water to it to make the product. Now it comes ready to rock and roll.

Good read there Steve.
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Offline JTX

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2017, 09:20:49 pm »
Awesome write up Steve. And you are saying you never had an issue with reduced boiling point, even in the scorching heat of Florida? Do you recommend distilled, or de-ionized water?


Water wetter will definitely go in the c14 when I change out the fluid next year when it's due.


But never put tap-water, soft or hard, in your motorcycle or car unless its an emergency.  The minerals will attach to the engine parts and will damage it over time if it's used.


Always use distilled water.

Offline freebird6

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2017, 09:25:21 pm »
Sitting in a series of medical lectures today. One ringer in the bunch so I decided to check on here for anything new. After listening to medical lectures where every data point and every outcome is scrutinized way more than anywhere else in my life I stumbled on this. Steve presented his ideas and thoughts spectacularly. Thanks for that. I don't know if I will use this info but I admire the effort and rationale used and the info shared

Offline Skiee

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2017, 10:08:36 pm »
Great information, Steve.  Thank you!
I recommend this thread to be a sticky somewhere??

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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2017, 03:34:28 am »
Not to add more heat to the discussion, I want to remind dedicated people of motoring industry about few other aspects with which coolant has to work to create an efficient system.
While proper mixture of ethel/propyl glycol and water is very important, it is 101 of automotive cooling. However few people know that cavitation and adhesion are main enemies of efficient cooling system. Depleted coolant will induce cavitation and reduce adhesion to cooling jacket walls. WaterWetter helps with adhesion of coolant by reducing size of bubbles that are created upon coolant contact with hot cylinder wall jacket.
I know for a fact Ford and Dodge are very adamant about keeping ph/nitrate level in their coolants at optimum levels. Wall pitting is the  main killers of apparent bore cylinder walls in diesels. Electrolysis is another potential foe of an engine, more so cast iron/aluminium hybrid engine.
I'd suggest investing in coolant test kit, not only specific gravity or freeze point, but also to test PH/Nitrate levels. A rusty/oxidized/pitted on the inside radiator or cylinder cooling jacket will dramatically reduce cooling efficiency.

Cheers...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 07:50:00 am by RoadKillHeaven »

Offline Tour1

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2017, 07:15:44 am »
In my younger days driving junker cars I speculated that mis-firing cylinders was the cause of many overheating problems.  I believe the cylinders that worked would be overloaded while coolant stayed cool around the non-firing cylinders and kept the thermostat closed until pressure built up to an overflow condition.  Those late 60's and early 70's cars were loaded with vacuum hoses going through ports & switches  that never matched the diagrams, and I thought the MPG quest caused by the '73 oil embargo made the manufacturers lean the carb jets so much that only a brand new engine would run right.
Another thing I've seen is the frozen coolant overheat.  Marginal coolant freezes, maybe slushy, but the engine thaws it while warmin up, except the frozen radiator keeps coolant from circulating just like a stuck thermostat and it becomes a boilover.
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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2017, 07:50:54 am »
In my younger days driving junker cars I speculated that mis-firing cylinders was the cause of many overheating problems.  I believe the cylinders that worked would be overloaded while coolant stayed cool around the non-firing cylinders and kept the thermostat closed until pressure built up to an overflow condition.  Those late 60's and early 70's cars were loaded with vacuum hoses going through ports & switches  that never matched the diagrams, and I thought the MPG quest caused by the '73 oil embargo made the manufacturers lean the carb jets so much that only a brand new engine would run right.
Another thing I've seen is the frozen coolant overheat.  Marginal coolant freezes, maybe slushy, but the engine thaws it while warmin up, except the frozen radiator keeps coolant from circulating just like a stuck thermostat and it becomes a boilover.
On top of that Flex radiator fans of yesteryears were very reliable.  ::)

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2017, 08:29:11 am »
Steve, I can see why you would want to use the "cocktail" when using a dyno since you don't get any airflow besides the fans so heat transfer would be a concern. But on the road, would the "cocktail" provide any tangible benefits such as more power, reduced gas consumption, less wear etc.? If you do use the "cocktail" would you need to flush more often due to the higher water content?

Thanks for another informative thread.

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2017, 10:34:44 am »
Steve, I can see why you would want to use the "cocktail" when using a dyno since you don't get any airflow besides the fans so heat transfer would be a concern. But on the road, would the "cocktail" provide any tangible benefits such as more power, reduced gas consumption, less wear etc.? If you do use the "cocktail" would you need to flush more often due to the higher water content?

Thanks for another informative thread.

Dan

  As I stated in my initial post, I live in Florida and have seen / repaired / rebuilt hundreds of engines damaged due to overheating damage. I don't use the cocktail specifically to reduce wear or increase fuel consumption, I use it to keep little things like cylinder heads and blocks attached with intact head gaskets  ;). Overcooling and undercooling are both bad for fuel efficiency but that's not my main goal, as in my mind a grenaded engine, broken pistons etc is very inefficient.

  I change fluids on my vehicles at least every 2 years as regular maintenance. Steve
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Offline Jorge

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2017, 12:46:47 pm »
Thanks Steve, good post and timely for me - I'm getting ready to change coolant on my C14.
As a side-note, in Northern climates the liquid stuff you put in your radiator is more likely to be called "anti-freeze" than "coolant".
Steve, does the "water wetter" have corrosion inhibitors that can make up for the lower concentration higher % of water is used?

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2017, 01:06:29 pm »

Steve, does the "water wetter" have corrosion inhibitors that can make up for the lower concentration higher % of water is used?

Yes, in fact the manufacturer states that you can run Water Wetter with no coolant and the system is still fully protected.

 Bear in mind the more coolant (antifreeze) %, the less the heat transfer will be. This is why folks who run 50/50 coolant don't see much running temp reduction when they add Water Wetter .

 Here's the linky - https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=74&pcid=10

 Steve

 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 01:10:16 pm by Steve in Sunny Fla »
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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2017, 01:08:11 pm »
Steve, I can see why you would want to use the "cocktail" when using a dyno since you don't get any airflow besides the fans so heat transfer would be a concern. But on the road, would the "cocktail" provide any tangible benefits such as more power, reduced gas consumption, less wear etc.? If you do use the "cocktail" would you need to flush more often due to the higher water content?

Thanks for another informative thread.

Dan

  As I stated in my initial post, I live in Florida and have seen / repaired / rebuilt hundreds of engines damaged due to overheating damage. I don't use the cocktail specifically to reduce wear or increase fuel consumption, I use it to keep little things like cylinder heads and blocks attached with intact head gaskets  ;). Overcooling and undercooling are both bad for fuel efficiency but that's not my main goal, as in my mind a grenaded engine, broken pistons etc is very inefficient.

  I change fluids on my vehicles at least every 2 years as regular maintenance. Steve

Correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but I've never heard of a properly maintained C14 overheat let alone suffer engine damage due to the cooling system being overwhelmed.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2017, 01:15:32 pm »

Correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but I've never heard of a properly maintained C14 overheat let alone suffer engine damage due to the cooling system being overwhelmed.

  Re-read my initial post paragraph 1. This was in response to the concept that lowering the fan "on" temp would help the engine run cooler, which is a misconception. If you read both of my posts carefully, it's all laid out there. I did not post this to remedy overheating issues, but more to dispell myths and help inform the guys who need to maximize heat shedding abilities in hot climates. Steve
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Offline LSGiant

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2017, 02:18:27 pm »
Someone asked if Deionized or Distilled water is better.  The terms get used in place of each other.  Distilled means boiled and then condensing the steam leaving the minerals behind via that process. Deionized typically means removing the minerals via a resin or other methods. As an example your softener is a deionizer with resin designed to remove calcium as an example. For the purpose of blending with radiator coolant either is going to be fine. Always add your coolant additive. Distilled or deionized water in its pure state is corrosive and more so as it is heated.
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Offline Jorge

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2017, 06:01:58 pm »
Thanks Steve, for the answer, and for the link  :great:

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2017, 06:08:01 pm »
Someone asked if Deionized or Distilled water is better.  The terms get used in place of each other.  Distilled means boiled and then condensing the steam leaving the minerals behind via that process. Deionized typically means removing the minerals via a resin or other methods. As an example your softener is a deionizer with resin designed to remove calcium as an example. For the purpose of blending with radiator coolant either is going to be fine. Always add your coolant additive. Distilled or deionized water in its pure state is corrosive and more so as it is heated.

De ionized water is more than a resin or filtering operation... its an electrolytic process, which breaks down, and recombines the water molecule.. and by the process changes the "ionization" point or potential for electrolysis, of the water...and yes, common de ionizing units do use "resin" impreganted reverse osmosis membranes to filter, but there are other "metals" the water passes thru, to change the ion content...IM HO, its not something to be used in a coolant mixture, as its properties have the molecule "looking for something to fill" the disruption of the covalent bonds within the molecule... as soon as this water comes in contact with raw aluminum, and brass, and steel, all the materials found in mechanical parts of an engine and its system.... de ionized water changes form... and is no longer de ionized, matter of fact, it becomes more ionically reactjve than tap water... because tap waters molecule isn't "looking" for something to fill the valences in the bonds... now, I'm not saying to use tap water, just saying de ionized water becomes more reactive, and does pick up the metalic salts, and chemicals, from the metals, when heated under pressure...
Destilled water is just that, boiled, and the condensate "stilled out" to re condense, into somewhat pure state, and some, not a lot, but some minerals are present... that said, its the choice for use, as it is les reactive, and picks up much less ionization creating a more stabil mix, for a longer period, from the start of use...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 06:16:01 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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