Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Concours 14 / ZG1400 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 15, 2017, 10:55:38 am

Title: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 15, 2017, 10:55:38 am
     Yesterday I received an email from someone in Arizona asking about lowering the fan switch temp to help his bike run at lower temps. I think he was surprised by the answer, and I wanted to share it with everyone.

    I am a professional mechanic in Florida. I specialized for decades in rebuilding automotive engines, and almost all of the engines I rebuilt were originally victims of overheating. As such, I studied up on how cooling systems work. I found along the way that most folks (read :nobody except engineers) really don't understand how the cooling systems work. I learned a very effective modification a couple decades ago, that I currently use in every vehicle I have, and I never have heat issues. Ever.

   Let me also say that what I'm going to share is not new to this forum. I shared this back in '05 with the c-10 guys, and if you ask the c-10 guys who have been around, this has been nicknamed "Steve's coolant cocktail". So this isn't new, just maybe new to you  ;).

   First, let's get a few things out of the way with some education.

  1) All a cooling system is doing is transferring BTU's from the engine to the ambient air. The more efficient that transfer is, the better the system will shed heat.

  2) Coolant is very poor at heat transfer. Water is the most effective.

  3) Every cooling system has a finite ability to shed heat, and that ability depends on the ambient air temps. So a cooling system in 70* ambient air may be able cool the coolant down to the thermostat cycling temp, but at 100* ambient it probably won't be able to do so unless it has a lot of surface area and flow volume in the radiator.

  4) lowering a thermostat temp isn't going to help the cooling system shed heat, or lower the operating temps unless the radiator has the ability to cool down to that temp. In many cases raising the thermostat temp is the thing to do as it provides the most linear and consistent operating temps for the engine.

  5) lowering coolant temps by thermostat opening temp will result in a less efficient engine. Heat in an engine expands the metal producing better cylinder sealing, helps the oil circulate with less pumping loss, and aids combustion. All within controlled parameters, of course.

  6) Radiators shed heat by airflow through them, as they transfer the heat from the cooling medium to the air. Changing electric fan cycle temps is largely an exercise in futility, as at about 25 mph the forward movement of the bike meets the airflow ability of the fans. Any higher speed than that produces more airflow than the fans provide, so lowering fan "on" temps has no effect on the coolant temps. 

  7) lowering fan cycle temp settings really only effects the cooling system when in traffic, with low available airflow. Typically fans will come on around 210* and off around 190. the temp will never go below the thermostat setting. Lowering the "on" temp will only result in the heat blowing on the rider for a longer duration as the fan comes on sooner and stays on til the preset off temp is reached. Remember that once on, the fan will stay on till the setting temps drops to the pre-set off temp, which HAS to higher than the thermostat temp, or the fan will run all the time once the thermostat opens. If the original ON temp was 210*, and the new temp is 195* the max temp difference the rider would feel is 15* BUT with the lower setting the fan will cycle more and blow that 195* heated air onto you for a longer time. Pick your poison, there's no free rides... as long as the engine is running it's releasing and  shedding the same BTU's.

  I'm going to stop here and pick up on the next post.

  Steve


 

Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 15, 2017, 11:37:03 am
 To continue:

  So with those facts established, what can be done to make a cooling system more efficient in it's ability to shed heat? We need to maximize the coolant medium's ability to gain and lose BTU's (heat).

   As stated previously typical automotive coolants are poor at heat transfer. Slow to gain and slow to lose heat. Water is the best medium, but it has the limitation of a lower boiling point and potential for nucleate boiling, which is localized hot spots generally around the combustion chamber which can over time erode metal, particularly aluminum. I have personally seen aluminum cylinder heads with pinholes from the cooling passages to the exhaust ports from said hot spot erosion. Water can also freeze, and that's not good, either.

   So what to do?

   Here is the BEST cooling medium I have ever used... low cost and highly effective.

   Use appx 15% non silicate coolant of your choice--- about 16 to 20 oz.

      4-6 oz of a product named "water wetter"
 
      The balance of fill will be DISTILLED water.

    So here's why it works as well as it does... the water is really the heat transfer product, which is why we want such a high concentration of it. We need distilled water so as to not introduce minerals that can attack the metals of the cooling system. The coolant is to prevent freezing down to maybe 20*, raise the boiling point and also it will prevent metal damage. The water wetter is a surfactant that allows the water to flow into the small crevices of the cooling passages (water jacket) and prevents the water from localized nucleate boiling. It also will help keep the system clean and prevent metal erosion.

    Some might look at the "boiling point" being lowered and think that's a problem. Not so, because this cocktail does such a good job shedding heat the boiling point is a non issue.

   If you are in a climate that has cold winters, you may want to bump up the coolant volume to maybe 30%, but understand you're reducing the ability to shed heat, too. Of course if you're going to live in North Dakota but do an August ride through Death Valley, you may want to change the coolant medium at some point to match the prevailing conditions. Again, no free ride, you're up against the  ability of the radiator to exchange heat and the coolant to provide it's antifreeze properties.

    If you set up your cooling system with this "coolant cocktail" you'll find the cooling system to be much more efficient at shedding heat in ALL circumstances. You will find the running temps in very hot ambient conditions will come down to the mechanical ability of the radiator to shed heat. You'll also find the fan cycling times to be minimized because of the efficient heat transfer.

   I realize there are newer products out there. Engine Ice, etc, and honestly since I hit on the above cocktail I haven't messed with anything else. Those products may work well, but water is cheap and the cocktail works great.

   I hope some of the c-10 guys who have been around for a long time and used this will chime in. This isn't rocket science, but it works. I included the "educational portion" because I find educated guys make better decisions and don't fall for "fixes" that look good on the surface but fall short in reality.

  Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Jerdurr on September 15, 2017, 12:12:38 pm
Awesome write up Steve. And you are saying you never had an issue with reduced boiling point, even in the scorching heat of Florida? Do you recommend distilled, or de-ionized water?
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 15, 2017, 12:22:37 pm
Awesome write up Steve. And you are saying you never had an issue with reduced boiling point, even in the scorching heat of Florida? Do you recommend distilled, or de-ionized water?

 Never an issue, in any vehicle, even towing a camping trailer from florida to texas in july with a hotrodded 4 cylinder 4runner and 4.88 gears. When my c-14 is on my dyno it cools off WAY faster than it did with the stock coolant, and riding in the full daytime summer heat it stays at 2 bars.  Yes, distilled water, pick it up at the grocery store. Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: ghostrider990 on September 15, 2017, 12:23:12 pm
Good Info Steve!

If I can be devils advocate for just a moment, can you explain why all manufacturers recommend a 50/50 dilution of water and
Coolant vs. the cocktail??

Is it simply the "seat belt law" principle:  make the rule for Everyone in all regions and environments, so the manf's liability
is reduced??

Do we know if any of the aftermarket coolants are based on this type of mixture??

Personally, I ride in cold weather (35+degf), but when my bike sits in even COLDER weather, I would worry about "freezing".

This is one reason I've never used straight water wetter, because I don't want to FORGET, and crack my heads when the temp drops in the off-season.  Also, I'm lazy and cheap, and don't want to have to change coolant every season.  :-[

Again -- not being antagonistic, just offering a counter-point to the obvious questions.  :beerchug:

gr

Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 15, 2017, 12:30:39 pm
Good Info Steve!

If I can be devils advocate for just a moment, can you explain why all manufacturers recommend a 50/50 dilution of water and
Coolant vs. the cocktail??

Is it simply the "seat belt law" principle:  make the rule for Everyone in all regions and environments, so the manf's liability
is reduced??

Do we know if any of the aftermarket coolants are based on this type of mixture??

Personally, I ride in cold weather (35+degf), but when my bike sits in even COLDER weather, I would worry about "freezing".

This is one reason I've never used straight water wetter, because I don't want to FORGET, and crack my heads when the temp drops in the off-season.  Also, I'm lazy and cheap, and don't want to have to change coolant every season.  :-[

Again -- not being antagonistic, just offering a counter-point to the obvious questions.  :beerchug:

gr

  You're not offering counter points, I covered all that except the 50/50 question. And I would guess the answer to that is the manufacturer sells you a vehicle that they expect won't be maintained and they don't know the climate it will be used in, so 50/50 is splitting the baby in the middle. Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: connie_rider on September 15, 2017, 12:34:17 pm
I've been wanting to add this to my C-10 for years.
Just never got around to it, and didn't know the exact mix.
Thanks for posting this again.

I'll take a stab at why 50/50 is recommended.

50/50 is the best mixture to prevent freezing problems.
Adding "or" decreasing the amount of antifreeze, raises the freezing point a bit..
   {Some Antifreeze Containers have a chart that shows the freeze protection based on mixture. (50/50 is shown to be optimum)}.

Living in Houston, I don't really need to be protected from freezing to  -50*...

Ride safe, Ted

PS: MOB Is correct. 50/50 is also an easier ratio for folks to understand..
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: EZ on September 15, 2017, 12:53:44 pm
     Yesterday I received an email from someone in Arizona asking about lowering the fan switch temp to help his bike run at lower temps. I think he was surprised by the answer, and I wanted to share it with everyone.

    I am a professional mechanic in Florida. I specialized for decades in rebuilding automotive engines, and almost all of the engines I rebuilt were originally victims of overheating. As such, I studied up on how cooling systems work. I found along the way that most folks (read :nobody except engineers) really don't understand how the cooling systems work. I learned a very effective modification a couple decades ago, that I currently use in every vehicle I have, and I never have heat issues. Ever.

   Let me also say that what I'm going to share is not new to this forum. I shared this back in '05 with the c-10 guys, and if you ask the c-10 guys who have been around, this has been nicknamed "Steve's coolant cocktail". So this isn't new, just maybe new to you  ;).

   First, let's get a few things out of the way with some education.

  1) All a cooling system is doing is transferring BTU's from the engine to the ambient air. The more efficient that transfer is, the better the system will shed heat.

  2) Coolant is very poor at heat transfer. Water is the most effective.

  3) Every cooling system has a finite ability to shed heat, and that ability depends on the ambient air temps. So a cooling system in 70* ambient air may be able cool the coolant down to the thermostat cycling temp, but at 100* ambient it probably won't be able to do so unless it has a lot of surface area and flow volume in the radiator.

  4) lowering a thermostat temp isn't going to help the cooling system shed heat, or lower the operating temps unless the radiator has the ability to cool down to that temp. In many cases raising the thermostat temp is the thing to do as it provides the most linear and consistent operating temps for the engine.

  5) lowering coolant temps by thermostat opening temp will result in a less efficient engine. Heat in an engine expands the metal producing better cylinder sealing, helps the oil circulate with less pumping loss, and aids combustion. All within controlled parameters, of course.

  6) Radiators shed heat by airflow through them, as they transfer the heat from the cooling medium to the air. Changing electric fan cycle temps is largely an exercise in futility, as at about 25 mph the forward movement of the bike meets the airflow ability of the fans. Any higher speed than that produces more airflow than the fans provide, so lowering fan "on" temps has no effect on the coolant temps. 

  7) lowering fan cycle temp settings really only effects the cooling system when in traffic, with low available airflow. Typically fans will come on around 210* and off around 190. the temp will never go below the thermostat setting. Lowering the "on" temp will only result in the heat blowing on the rider for a longer duration as the fan comes on sooner and stays on til the preset off temp is reached. Remember that once on, the fan will stay on till the setting temps drops to the pre-set off temp, which HAS to higher than the thermostat temp, or the fan will run all the time once the thermostat opens. If the original ON temp was 210*, and the new temp is 195* the max temp difference the rider would feel is 15* BUT with the lower setting the fan will cycle more and blow that 195* heated air onto you for a longer time. Pick your poison, there's no free rides... as long as the engine is running it's releasing and  shedding the same BTU's.

  I'm going to stop here and pick up on the next post.

  Steve


 

^^^ That ^^^ right there boys and girls is why I have issue with people trying to justify $37.00/ year for membership! Just because its free for forum subscribers doesn't justify NOT supporting the club.  As always Steve...  :beerchug: :beerchug:
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 15, 2017, 07:35:01 pm
Thank you Steve, for taking the time to bring this all back to refresh everyones minds on how coolants "really" work...
I agree 1000% with your explanations, and have always tried to explain this to others, that the coolants ability to absorb, and release heat effectively is the most important part of the equation...
Recently some discussion took place about "waterless coolants", and the benefits extolled by the manufacturers, which I clearly saw thru as a non choice on my part, due to the reduced capacity for absorption and release of BTU's...

As for the 50/50 mix, its befome industry standard so to speak, simply because half the USA see freezing temps in the winter... and probably 25% see below zero temps, sometimes for monthes... the mix prevents slushing and freezing, which tends to ruin things like freeze plugs, water pumps, and radiators... oh, and heater cores...
50/50 just makes it simpler to provide a mix, generically satisfying the temp ranges across the USA, but as we know, if you live in a "hot zone" mixing your own is a good choice

Thanks again, for wise words... :beerchug:
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: gpd323 on September 15, 2017, 08:25:33 pm
I have used Red lines water Wetter in all me vehicles for 20+ years now. I remember when it came in a bottle in granular form and you have to mix water to it to make the product. Now it comes ready to rock and roll.

Good read there Steve.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: JTX on September 15, 2017, 09:20:49 pm
Awesome write up Steve. And you are saying you never had an issue with reduced boiling point, even in the scorching heat of Florida? Do you recommend distilled, or de-ionized water?


Water wetter will definitely go in the c14 when I change out the fluid next year when it's due.


But never put tap-water, soft or hard, in your motorcycle or car unless its an emergency.  The minerals will attach to the engine parts and will damage it over time if it's used.


Always use distilled water.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: freebird6 on September 15, 2017, 09:25:21 pm
Sitting in a series of medical lectures today. One ringer in the bunch so I decided to check on here for anything new. After listening to medical lectures where every data point and every outcome is scrutinized way more than anywhere else in my life I stumbled on this. Steve presented his ideas and thoughts spectacularly. Thanks for that. I don't know if I will use this info but I admire the effort and rationale used and the info shared
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Skiee on September 15, 2017, 10:08:36 pm
Great information, Steve.  Thank you!
I recommend this thread to be a sticky somewhere??

Norm
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on September 16, 2017, 03:34:28 am
Not to add more heat to the discussion, I want to remind dedicated people of motoring industry about few other aspects with which coolant has to work to create an efficient system.
While proper mixture of ethel/propyl glycol and water is very important, it is 101 of automotive cooling. However few people know that cavitation and adhesion are main enemies of efficient cooling system. Depleted coolant will induce cavitation and reduce adhesion to cooling jacket walls. WaterWetter helps with adhesion of coolant by reducing size of bubbles that are created upon coolant contact with hot cylinder wall jacket.
I know for a fact Ford and Dodge are very adamant about keeping ph/nitrate level in their coolants at optimum levels. Wall pitting is the  main killers of apparent bore cylinder walls in diesels. Electrolysis is another potential foe of an engine, more so cast iron/aluminium hybrid engine.
I'd suggest investing in coolant test kit, not only specific gravity or freeze point, but also to test PH/Nitrate levels. A rusty/oxidized/pitted on the inside radiator or cylinder cooling jacket will dramatically reduce cooling efficiency.

Cheers...
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Tour1 on September 16, 2017, 07:15:44 am
In my younger days driving junker cars I speculated that mis-firing cylinders was the cause of many overheating problems.  I believe the cylinders that worked would be overloaded while coolant stayed cool around the non-firing cylinders and kept the thermostat closed until pressure built up to an overflow condition.  Those late 60's and early 70's cars were loaded with vacuum hoses going through ports & switches  that never matched the diagrams, and I thought the MPG quest caused by the '73 oil embargo made the manufacturers lean the carb jets so much that only a brand new engine would run right.
Another thing I've seen is the frozen coolant overheat.  Marginal coolant freezes, maybe slushy, but the engine thaws it while warmin up, except the frozen radiator keeps coolant from circulating just like a stuck thermostat and it becomes a boilover.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on September 16, 2017, 07:50:54 am
In my younger days driving junker cars I speculated that mis-firing cylinders was the cause of many overheating problems.  I believe the cylinders that worked would be overloaded while coolant stayed cool around the non-firing cylinders and kept the thermostat closed until pressure built up to an overflow condition.  Those late 60's and early 70's cars were loaded with vacuum hoses going through ports & switches  that never matched the diagrams, and I thought the MPG quest caused by the '73 oil embargo made the manufacturers lean the carb jets so much that only a brand new engine would run right.
Another thing I've seen is the frozen coolant overheat.  Marginal coolant freezes, maybe slushy, but the engine thaws it while warmin up, except the frozen radiator keeps coolant from circulating just like a stuck thermostat and it becomes a boilover.
On top of that Flex radiator fans of yesteryears were very reliable.  ::)
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Kman on September 16, 2017, 08:29:11 am
Steve, I can see why you would want to use the "cocktail" when using a dyno since you don't get any airflow besides the fans so heat transfer would be a concern. But on the road, would the "cocktail" provide any tangible benefits such as more power, reduced gas consumption, less wear etc.? If you do use the "cocktail" would you need to flush more often due to the higher water content?

Thanks for another informative thread.

Dan
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 16, 2017, 10:34:44 am
Steve, I can see why you would want to use the "cocktail" when using a dyno since you don't get any airflow besides the fans so heat transfer would be a concern. But on the road, would the "cocktail" provide any tangible benefits such as more power, reduced gas consumption, less wear etc.? If you do use the "cocktail" would you need to flush more often due to the higher water content?

Thanks for another informative thread.

Dan

  As I stated in my initial post, I live in Florida and have seen / repaired / rebuilt hundreds of engines damaged due to overheating damage. I don't use the cocktail specifically to reduce wear or increase fuel consumption, I use it to keep little things like cylinder heads and blocks attached with intact head gaskets  ;). Overcooling and undercooling are both bad for fuel efficiency but that's not my main goal, as in my mind a grenaded engine, broken pistons etc is very inefficient.

  I change fluids on my vehicles at least every 2 years as regular maintenance. Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Jorge on September 16, 2017, 12:46:47 pm
Thanks Steve, good post and timely for me - I'm getting ready to change coolant on my C14.
As a side-note, in Northern climates the liquid stuff you put in your radiator is more likely to be called "anti-freeze" than "coolant".
Steve, does the "water wetter" have corrosion inhibitors that can make up for the lower concentration higher % of water is used?
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 16, 2017, 01:06:29 pm

Steve, does the "water wetter" have corrosion inhibitors that can make up for the lower concentration higher % of water is used?

Yes, in fact the manufacturer states that you can run Water Wetter with no coolant and the system is still fully protected.

 Bear in mind the more coolant (antifreeze) %, the less the heat transfer will be. This is why folks who run 50/50 coolant don't see much running temp reduction when they add Water Wetter .

 Here's the linky - https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=74&pcid=10 (https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=74&pcid=10)

 Steve

 
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Kman on September 16, 2017, 01:08:11 pm
Steve, I can see why you would want to use the "cocktail" when using a dyno since you don't get any airflow besides the fans so heat transfer would be a concern. But on the road, would the "cocktail" provide any tangible benefits such as more power, reduced gas consumption, less wear etc.? If you do use the "cocktail" would you need to flush more often due to the higher water content?

Thanks for another informative thread.

Dan

  As I stated in my initial post, I live in Florida and have seen / repaired / rebuilt hundreds of engines damaged due to overheating damage. I don't use the cocktail specifically to reduce wear or increase fuel consumption, I use it to keep little things like cylinder heads and blocks attached with intact head gaskets  ;). Overcooling and undercooling are both bad for fuel efficiency but that's not my main goal, as in my mind a grenaded engine, broken pistons etc is very inefficient.

  I change fluids on my vehicles at least every 2 years as regular maintenance. Steve

Correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but I've never heard of a properly maintained C14 overheat let alone suffer engine damage due to the cooling system being overwhelmed.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 16, 2017, 01:15:32 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but I've never heard of a properly maintained C14 overheat let alone suffer engine damage due to the cooling system being overwhelmed.

  Re-read my initial post paragraph 1. This was in response to the concept that lowering the fan "on" temp would help the engine run cooler, which is a misconception. If you read both of my posts carefully, it's all laid out there. I did not post this to remedy overheating issues, but more to dispell myths and help inform the guys who need to maximize heat shedding abilities in hot climates. Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Jeff Kerkow on September 16, 2017, 02:18:27 pm
Someone asked if Deionized or Distilled water is better.  The terms get used in place of each other.  Distilled means boiled and then condensing the steam leaving the minerals behind via that process. Deionized typically means removing the minerals via a resin or other methods. As an example your softener is a deionizer with resin designed to remove calcium as an example. For the purpose of blending with radiator coolant either is going to be fine. Always add your coolant additive. Distilled or deionized water in its pure state is corrosive and more so as it is heated.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Jorge on September 16, 2017, 06:01:58 pm
Thanks Steve, for the answer, and for the link  :great:
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 16, 2017, 06:08:01 pm
Someone asked if Deionized or Distilled water is better.  The terms get used in place of each other.  Distilled means boiled and then condensing the steam leaving the minerals behind via that process. Deionized typically means removing the minerals via a resin or other methods. As an example your softener is a deionizer with resin designed to remove calcium as an example. For the purpose of blending with radiator coolant either is going to be fine. Always add your coolant additive. Distilled or deionized water in its pure state is corrosive and more so as it is heated.

De ionized water is more than a resin or filtering operation... its an electrolytic process, which breaks down, and recombines the water molecule.. and by the process changes the "ionization" point or potential for electrolysis, of the water...and yes, common de ionizing units do use "resin" impreganted reverse osmosis membranes to filter, but there are other "metals" the water passes thru, to change the ion content...IM HO, its not something to be used in a coolant mixture, as its properties have the molecule "looking for something to fill" the disruption of the covalent bonds within the molecule... as soon as this water comes in contact with raw aluminum, and brass, and steel, all the materials found in mechanical parts of an engine and its system.... de ionized water changes form... and is no longer de ionized, matter of fact, it becomes more ionically reactjve than tap water... because tap waters molecule isn't "looking" for something to fill the valences in the bonds... now, I'm not saying to use tap water, just saying de ionized water becomes more reactive, and does pick up the metalic salts, and chemicals, from the metals, when heated under pressure...
Destilled water is just that, boiled, and the condensate "stilled out" to re condense, into somewhat pure state, and some, not a lot, but some minerals are present... that said, its the choice for use, as it is les reactive, and picks up much less ionization creating a more stabil mix, for a longer period, from the start of use...
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on September 16, 2017, 06:56:25 pm
And...everyone is so preoccupied with coolant "cocktail" forgetting that proper pressure in cooling systems is vital ...Why?
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 16, 2017, 07:29:05 pm
I don't think anyone has discounted the pressurization aspect whatsoever, it was, and is, a discussion about coolants, being used in an otherwise correctly sealed and working coolant system.  Which operates within the pressure specifications of the cap, and connections.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Jeff Kerkow on September 16, 2017, 07:47:11 pm
Someone asked if Deionized or Distilled water is better.  The terms get used in place of each other.  Distilled means boiled and then condensing the steam leaving the minerals behind via that process. Deionized typically means removing the minerals via a resin or other methods. As an example your softener is a deionizer with resin designed to remove calcium as an example. For the purpose of blending with radiator coolant either is going to be fine. Always add your coolant additive. Distilled or deionized water in its pure state is corrosive and more so as it is heated.

De ionized water is more than a resin or filtering operation... its an electrolytic process, which breaks down, and recombines the water molecule.. and by the process changes the "ionization" point or potential for electrolysis, of the water... IMHO, its not something to be used in a coolant mixture, as its properties have the molecule "looking for something to fill" the disruption of the covalent bonds within the molecule... as soon as this water comes in contact with raw aluminum, and brass, and steel, all the materials found in mechanical parts of an engine and its system.... de ionized water changes form... and is no longer de ionized, matter of fact, it becomes more ionically reactjve than tap water... because tap waters molecule isn't "looking" for something to fill the valences in the bonds... now, I'm not saying to use tap water, just saying de ionized water becomes more reactive, and does pick up the metalic salts, and chemicals, from the metals, when heated under pressure...
Destilled water is just that, boiled, and the condensate "stilled out" to re condense, into somewhat pure state, and some, not a lot, but some minerals are present... that said, its the choice for use, as it is les reactive, and picks up much less ionization creating a more stabil mix, for a longer period, from the start of use...

25 Years in the purified water industry but Rich knows more. Typical tap water created using weak bed Cation and Anion resin creates deionized water in the 25 - 200 Kohm/cm range, using strong bed Cation and Anion resin makes deionized water in 200 Kohm/cm cm to 1 Megohm/cm range that is all it takes no other steps. Purified water generated with a multiple effect still will also be in the 200 Kohm to 1 Megohm/cm range.  You can make higher purity water with mixed-bed deionization or other deionization processes but that is not what you are buying in the store.

The main point here, in this application is, if it is low purity deionized water, high purity deionized water, or distilled water, when you blend it with the coolant the analysis for the blended coolant will all be within specification and work fine. Higher purity water will not effect your final coolant blend or the ability of the coolant to perform properly.

Distilled or Deionized water without coolant blended will react with the metal material in your system and shorten its life.

I have made a living interchanging the technologies depending on the industry and application and in this application it does not matter.

In this case Rich your humble opinion is wrong.

Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 16, 2017, 08:27:25 pm
 :-X :truce:

Well Jeff, I stand corrected... and appologise. :great:

Please tell me tho, if using DI water alone, would have the effect I noted, as having a higher reactive effect downstream, after it cycles for let's say, maybe six monthes... not talking about a mix with coolant additives, just the water part.
I am curious, as a casual person. My questions are based on chemestry classes using reagent grades of DI, which are basically a bit cost prohibitive for use in radiators and batteries as such.
Also, in my more youthful engineering positions, developing water cooled resistive MRI body scanners, our experiments showed a larger incidence of ionic recombination of drawn out metals, (copper, and aluminum) when we experimented on using it in a sealed system for cooling the magnets, and we found distilled, or "double distilled" water as a better choice, then we ended up using some exotic combos of alcohol, and water, and prioritized ingredients to provide the least damage... just about the time we devloped the superfonductive cryogen filled MRI systems...
We saw some interesting effects during the foolant tests, as MRI was new, and the coolants used, did actually effect the quality of the imaging

But I do thank you for the explanations, I guess it does coincide with our findings back in 1980 in some respects, based on resistivity of the water itself.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Fred_Wa2gzw on September 16, 2017, 08:30:50 pm
Water Question??  Is the water extracted from the air such as the water collected by a dehumidifier free of impurities and safe to use??
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Ranger Jim on September 16, 2017, 08:47:18 pm
Given that distilled water is so inexpensive, why would you want to risk it?
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Ranger Jim on September 16, 2017, 08:50:51 pm
BTW & FWIW, I used Steve's cocktail in my C10 from the time I first heard about it until I sold it (probably 10=12 years) and NEVER had any issues with overheating even when my water pump crapped out on me coming through Atlanta one June. Temps would get to the upper range (but not into the red zone) in the traffic but would cool back down once I could get above 35 mph.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Jeff Kerkow on September 16, 2017, 09:08:29 pm
Rich

The reagent grade water you used in the lab was more than likely 18 Megohm/cm.  When you expose that water to atmosphere it equalizes with CO2 in the air and the quality drops to 720Kohm and it also become acidic when this happens.

If you used Deionized water on a brand new cooling system it will be attack the soft metals. How long is hard to tell. It takes very little of the metal to become sacrificial and stop the process. The ions balance out and the water no longer attack the metals.  Simple things like opening or allowing the system to breath allowing Oxygen and CO2 to enter may also increase the corrosive process.

I have had customers not knowing the corrosive properties of deionized corrode through a copper fitting in less than a month while other places run for years and not have an issue. The ones that run for years typically have run regular tap water through the pipes first and the Deionized water is attacking that not the piping.

Drifting way off topic here.

This is back on topic

I would be interested if someone would send me links to some white papers or scholarly articles supporting the "wet water" application.  I have to do tons and tons of industrial cooling and even a small percentage of improved heat transfer would mean lots of savings and I have yet to see it used in a commercial application. To be honest I am skeptical of its performance.



Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Jeff Kerkow on September 16, 2017, 09:20:43 pm
Water Question??  Is the water extracted from the air such as the water collected by a dehumidifier free of impurities and safe to use??

Water collected from a Dehumidifier is typically full of air born particulates as the air is typically blown across a coil as it condenses the dirt ends up in the water. These particulates are smaller than you can see but still end up in your system.

Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 16, 2017, 09:40:13 pm
Rich

To be honest I am skeptical of its performance.

wow, well, Ok. Thanks. I'll have to assume my many many experiences with the product has been unique and placebo effect.

 ETA... in case your understanding is that the water wetter is the cooling medium, here is what I wrote in post 2

    " So here's why it works as well as it does... the water is really the heat transfer product, which is why we want such a high concentration of it. We need distilled water so as to not introduce minerals that can attack the metals of the cooling system. The coolant is to prevent freezing down to maybe 20*, raise the boiling point and also it will prevent metal damage. The water wetter is a surfactant that allows the water to flow into the small crevices of the cooling passages (water jacket) and prevents the water from localized nucleate boiling. It also will help keep the system clean and prevent metal erosion."

  I don't know what temps you work with, for all I know you work with nuclear reactors, but I would assume if water is the primary coolant medium, and the temps are below boiling, then water wetter or a similar chemical compound would be useless.

 Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 16, 2017, 10:19:32 pm
Rich

To be honest I am skeptical of its performance.

wow, well, Ok. Thanks. I'll have to assume my many many experiences with the product has been unique and placebo effect.. Steve

Don't take this in the wrong way, as I understand what Jeff is saying, and also what watter wetter accomplishes, the systems he is speaking of are somewhat different, and cold /hot cycling on an engine, does differ from trying to keep a "consistant state of cooling on machine applications in many respects... I also have to comment that it was notable he did speak about CO2 and O2 effects of using DI water, both of which do effect performance, and corrosion liabilities to some effect.  Large instrumentation cooling, and "steady state machinery" cooled with industrial heat exchange units do not see the massive swings in temperature that motor vehicles see, swings of 120* + in machinery or kndustrial applications are rare, as they are robustly sized, stationary systems, over spec'd to keep donstant temps... unlike an m/c engine that is thrashed thru cycles of 70* to 235* within moments.
All have different needs,  as I mentioned briefly in one post above, MRI cooling I designed, had a max temp swing of about 80* delta, and if larger swings were present, it was construed as a major malfunction.. then, onto nuclear reactor technology, say, Navy ships, and power stations, where it takes a 200* swing to make people really nervous... in industrial applications numerous "stopgap" measures are taken, thru additional pumping systems, massive cooling "heat transfer" equipment, (coolant flowing thru radiators and or coils, that are also pre cooled with fluids, and even cryogens) to control heat runaway..

So I understand his point, and also yours, and not discounting the effects of enhanced cooling by use of water wetter, on a small moving machine, nor am I saying it would be cost effective for use, in a 70 ton chiller, used for indusrial usage...

Good conversation for sure.. :great:
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 16, 2017, 10:29:18 pm

Don't take this in the wrong way, as I understand what Jeff is saying, and also what watter wetter accomplishes, the systems he is speaking of are somewhat different, and cold /hot cycling on an engine, does differ from trying to keep a "consistant state of cooling on machine applications in many respects... I also have to comment that it was notable he did speak about CO2 and O2 effects of using DI water, both of which do effect performance, and corrosion liabilities to some effect.  Large instrumentation cooling, and "steady state machinery" cooled with industrial heat exchange units do not see the massive swings in temperature that motor vehicles see, swings of 120* + in machinery or kndustrial applications are rare, as they are robustly sized, stationary systems, over spec'd to keep donstant temps... unlike an m/c engine that is thrashed thru cycles of 70* to 235* within moments.
All have different needs,  as I mentioned briefly in one post above, MRI cooling I designed, had a max temp swing of about 80* delta, and if larger swings were present, it was construed as a major malfunction.. then, onto nuclear reactor technology, say, Navy ships, and power stations, where it takes a 200* swing to make people really nervous... in industrial applications numerous "stopgap" measures are taken, thru additional pumping systems, massive cooling "heat transfer" equipment, (coolant flowing thru radiators and or coils, that are also pre cooled with fluids, and even cryogens) to control heat runaway..

So I understand his point, and also yours, and not discounting the effects of enhanced cooling by use of water wetter, on a small moving machine, nor am I saying it would be cost effective for use, in a 70 ton chiller, used for indusrial usage...

Good conversation for sure.. :great:

  that's funny Rich - We cross posted, I just did an edit while you were typing, so I know you hadn't seen it. It seems we're on the same page. The big difference in this conversation is that y'all are engineers and well educated in the subject, and I'm about to fly the white flag and pull my "I'm just a dumb mechanic" card  :lol_hitting:  Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on September 16, 2017, 10:35:38 pm
It is known, automotive cooling system consists of electrochemically incompatible materials.  Deionized water has curious property conducting electricity thus increasing chances of electrolysis within cooling system.
Also, distilled water has very strong propensity to absorb minerals it comes in contact with. Using DI or DS water without proper additive package is detrimental to efficiency of cooling system.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Jeff Kerkow on September 16, 2017, 10:57:26 pm
We have small cooling units dedicated to specific tools that have challenging heat transfer applications.  I really wanted this to be a solution. They currently run just DI water with a small amount of additive to keep it from being corrosive. I was hoping to find more documentation to support this.  I still may give this a try on the small units.  But man o man if I could get 2 degrees out of the 1200 + tons of cooling I have now I would be a hero.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 17, 2017, 12:43:39 am
We have small cooling units dedicated to specific tools that have challenging heat transfer applications.  I really wanted this to be a solution. They currently run just DI water with a small amount of additive to keep it from being corrosive. I was hoping to find more documentation to support this.  I still may give this a try on the small units.  But man o man if I could get 2 degrees out of the 1200 + tons of cooling I have now I would be a hero.

So based on how water wetter works, unless you're having localized boiling / cavitation, it's not going to do better than what you have. OTOH, you seem to have supported what I posted about water being the best medium for heat transfer. steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: olie on September 17, 2017, 12:46:08 am
reading some of these postings, it looks like we have chemical and thermal properties voodoo...

.... so, what is/are the magical chemical component(s) in the "water wetter" that magically improve the Cp of the ethylene glycol /water mixture?  ... btw way, I read the Redline MSDS...

Dilsopropyl alcohol ether: 1-40%
Tri isopropyl alcohol diether: 1-40%
Sodium molybdate: 2-10%
Tolyltriazole: 1-3%
Polysiloxane polymer: n/a
(there are CAS#'s for those)

Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Jorge on September 17, 2017, 01:41:03 am
Rich, Jeff... PLEASE STOP!  I'm getting flashbacks to my 8 AM chemistry class ( I commuted, across Chicago, so I had to leave home at ~6:30 AM). Please no more :(

JK, of course. Great discussion in which I learned stuff i will not remember in on week. Hopefully not tru, adn I will retain some of it, but I do appreciate the discussion    :great:
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Derek on September 17, 2017, 07:38:59 pm

   If you are in a climate that has cold winters, you may want to bump up the coolant volume to maybe 30%, but understand you're reducing the ability to shed heat, too.

  Steve

For us "northerners"  that you recomend bumping the coolant to 30%, any guesses what that will lower the freeze point to?  I'm in Ontario where we can get cold... 0 to -20ish Celsius (32 to -4F)  on average and occasional -40C (-40F).   Obviously not riding  in those temps but the bike is sitting in a unheated garage.  Wouldn't want to have to drain the coolant cocktail every winter.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: olie on September 17, 2017, 07:55:28 pm
.... all you need to know except the voodoo....

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html)
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Jim Snyder on September 17, 2017, 08:05:46 pm
I have been running Steve's coolant cocktail in my C-10 for several years. My temp gauge rarely gets above the first notch on the
cold side of the gauge. And by no means am I what you call easy on the throttle. Bottom line is it works.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Derek on September 17, 2017, 08:08:50 pm
.... all you need to know except the voodoo....

[url]http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html[/url] ([url]http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html[/url])


According to that chart.... I should be running about 53% glycol not 30%
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 17, 2017, 08:24:58 pm
.... all you need to know except the voodoo....

[url]http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html[/url] ([url]http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html[/url])


According to that chart.... I should be running about 53% glycol not 30%


 Derek, the point of this thread was for guys in really hot climates, the ability to shed heat and the misconception that fan "on" temp would help the engine run cooler.  Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Derek on September 17, 2017, 08:32:51 pm


 Derek, the point of this thread was for guys in really hot climates, the ability to shed heat and the misconception that fan "on" temp would help the engine run cooler.  Steve

Too bad, it seemed really hot up here the other day... 28C (82f) and blasting down the highway at 120 KPH (75 mph) with the windshield fully up I was running 1 bar from the top which I have never seen before.  When I got off the highway temp gauge returned to its normal range (half mark or 1 above).  I was hoping this cocktail would help.... guess I'll just stick to the normal (for Canada) flush and re-fill at 50/50 mix....eh!

thanks
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 17, 2017, 08:50:16 pm


 Derek, the point of this thread was for guys in really hot climates, the ability to shed heat and the misconception that fan "on" temp would help the engine run cooler.  Steve

Too bad, it seemed really hot up here the other day... 28C (82f) and blasting down the highway at 120 KPH (75 mph) with the windshield fully up I was running 1 bar from the top which I have never seen before.  When I got off the highway temp gauge returned to its normal range (half mark or 1 above).  I was hoping this cocktail would help.... guess I'll just stick to the normal (for Canada) flush and re-fill at 50/50 mix....eh!

thanks

Somethings wrong with your bike, to run that hot at 82*. Probably a stuck thermostat and all you're cooling is coming from the bypass. Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Derek on September 17, 2017, 08:55:12 pm

Somethings wrong with your bike, to run that hot at 82*. Probably a stuck thermostat and all you're cooling is coming from the bypass. Steve

I better get that looked at.... my extended warranty runs out on the 27th.... or just change it myself.
Thanks
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: JDSCO on September 17, 2017, 09:01:36 pm
I read about this cocktail years ago, here in COG. It does work. Thanks Steve.
It's not practical to perform annual coolant changes on most bikes.
I don't have access to DI water, nuclear reactors or whatever, but I do have access to distilled water and a motorcycle that's really easy to swap coolant.
I run this "cocktail" at 25% with 10% Water Wetter in my KTM 990, a v-twin that's prone to run on the hot side, on single track.
It's a bike that's prone to corrosion/erosion in the water pump cavity caused by old, contaminated coolant.
I do mostly <20mph trails, 80 to 50deg F. This cocktail allows cooler running with minimal airflow and my single cooling fan cycles on and off vs being on constantly.
I change the coolant, 2.1 liters, annually.
Many 990 riders mount an aux fan and a 190 vs 210deg fan thermo switch. I run the stock, single fan/210deg system.

Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: PeteTN_zgtr on September 17, 2017, 11:32:51 pm

[/quote]

I don't know what temps you work with, for all I know you work with nuclear reactors, but I would assume if water is the primary coolant medium, and the temps are below boiling, then water wetter or a similar chemical compound would be useless.

 Steve
[/quote]

Actually Steve controlled moderate boiling will increase cooling because of the heat absorbed to turn the water to steam. Obviously too much at a localized area would not be good but with really high velocity flow boiling helps. I'm not referring to engines though but some of the test equipment we work with a little moderate boiling is allowable. Bulk water temperature is way below boiling but localized boiling is OK if the flow velocity keeps new cool water coming.

Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: olie on September 18, 2017, 01:00:25 am


I don't know what temps you work with, for all I know you work with nuclear reactors, but I would assume if water is the primary coolant medium, and the temps are below boiling, then water wetter or a similar chemical compound would be useless.

 Steve
[/quote]

Actually Steve controlled moderate boiling will increase cooling because of the heat absorbed to turn the water to steam. Obviously too much at a localized area would not be good but with really high velocity flow boiling helps. I'm not referring to engines though but some of the test equipment we work with a little moderate boiling is allowable. Bulk water temperature is way below boiling but localized boiling is OK if the flow velocity keeps new cool water coming.
[/quote]

If you reduce the boiling point to take advantage of the Heat of Vaporization of the water by adding the water wetter or other voodoo stuff, you will have consumption of water... I don't think you want that in a motorcycle engine, especially in a C14 that is a pain to add coolant. Industrial heat exchangers can easily add water to make up the proper level.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 18, 2017, 01:33:52 am

Actually Steve controlled moderate boiling will increase cooling because of the heat absorbed to turn the water to steam. Obviously too much at a localized area would not be good but with really high velocity flow boiling helps. I'm not referring to engines though but some of the test equipment we work with a little moderate boiling is allowable. Bulk water temperature is way below boiling but localized boiling is OK if the flow velocity keeps new cool water coming.

That wouldn't be good in an engine. the block and heads are generally sand cast and flow around the combustion chambers is challenging already. Engineers and hotrodders have often resorted to steam holes and adding fittings to get coolant to flow in hot spots where flow is often stalled and insufficient. As I stated in my original post, I have dealt with aluminum heads that are pin holed right through to the exhaust ports. The aluminum is turned to mush, and there's nothing to even weld to. Plus what must be considered is that the temp spikes will cause detonation issues. Boiling in a pipe that you can continually flow through may be acceptable, but boiling in a cylinder head is really not allowable for a number of reasons.
Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Mcfly on September 18, 2017, 01:51:29 am
I used Steve's coolant cocktail for 3 years with excellent results.  This mix DOES work. 

I was going to use  Engine Ice, but it is NOT an additive, requires flushing the cooling system completely, then using ONLY Engine Ice as your coolant.  Problem there is, what if you're on the road and have a cooling issue?  Can't top off with regular antifreeze.... 

So, for simplicity, and all around ease of use, Steve's mix rates purdy high.

Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: PeteTN_zgtr on September 18, 2017, 09:56:53 am

Actually Steve controlled moderate boiling will increase cooling because of the heat absorbed to turn the water to steam. Obviously too much at a localized area would not be good but with really high velocity flow boiling helps. I'm not referring to engines though but some of the test equipment we work with a little moderate boiling is allowable. Bulk water temperature is way below boiling but localized boiling is OK if the flow velocity keeps new cool water coming.

That wouldn't be good in an engine. the block and heads are generally sand cast and flow around the combustion chambers is challenging already. Engineers and hotrodders have often resorted to steam holes and adding fittings to get coolant to flow in hot spots where flow is often stalled and insufficient. As I stated in my original post, I have dealt with aluminum heads that are pin holed right through to the exhaust ports. The aluminum is turned to mush, and there's nothing to even weld to. Plus what must be considered is that the temp spikes will cause detonation issues. Boiling in a pipe that you can continually flow through may be acceptable, but boiling in a cylinder head is really not allowable for a number of reasons.
Steve

Yeah completely agree! Just adding an interesting side-note. . .   We deal with water cooled test equipment like instrumentation systems that sit behind a jet engine in afterburner.  Water velocity is high.   

Yeah seems like I remember reading about the steam holes in the heads of 400 small block Chevy's.

BTW thanks for sharing your coolant cocktail recipe again.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on September 18, 2017, 10:16:34 am
This discussion is like two gearhead-wannabe arguing who's got better butt dyno in regard to which of their tuned-up ricers has more MOJO.

Without empirical  data, i.e. dynamometer testing with gas analyzer, these two have dipped their toes in a pool of conjecture.   

But...But...But...Who doesn't love to gaze upon a tuned-up with pair of turbos, nitrous, tetrad tipped - spewing deafening cacophony of rich-mixture exhaust - car so slammed that its front "splitter" can fillet a well worn road kill in half? Right!  ;)


Cheers...
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 18, 2017, 10:17:33 am

Yeah seems like I remember reading about the steam holes in the heads of 400 small block Chevy's.



  True on the smallblock 400. I built many of them.

  When I built my 1109cc engine for Shoodaben (you c-14 guys should visit my web page and read up on that engine) I had to drill steam holes in the concours head to match with the zx11 block. The problem in the block was that the cylinders were so close water couldn't flow around them and was trapped. the newer / larger zx engines, the zzr12 and the zx12, both had siamesed cylinders because again, there was no more room left to bore, and kaw had to nikasil the aluminum to go as large as they did. Steam holes saved the day. Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on September 18, 2017, 10:27:07 am
Quote
and kaw had to nikasil the aluminum to go as large as they did
That is why low quality fuels should be avoided in Kaw engines. 
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: JimBob on September 19, 2017, 04:53:27 pm
Quote
and kaw had to nikasil the aluminum to go as large as they did
That is why low quality fuels should be avoided in Kaw engines.


Can you expand on this Roadkill? How does poor quality fuel (<definition needed>) affect Nikasil?
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Mark on September 19, 2017, 09:09:36 pm
I'm so glad I renewed my membership today....will be doing this soon! Thanks Steve.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on September 20, 2017, 07:35:54 am
Quote
and kaw had to nikasil the aluminum to go as large as they did

That is why low quality fuels should be avoided in Kaw engines.



Can you expand on this Roadkill? How does poor quality fuel (<definition needed>) affect Nikasil?

https://www.torquecars.com/bmw/nikasil-issue.php (https://www.torquecars.com/bmw/nikasil-issue.php)
http://jagrepair.com/NikasilandSulfur.htm (http://jagrepair.com/NikasilandSulfur.htm)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil)


Cheers...
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Jorge on September 20, 2017, 09:46:49 am
I thought the whole point of water wetter was to keep water in contact and flooding past the nooks and crannies in the engine and keep the temperature below the boiling point of the cocktail?
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Ranger Jim on September 20, 2017, 10:21:08 am
Water Wetter (basically) reduces the surface tension of water thereby making the creation of bubbles less. This keeps more of the water in contact with the hot areas enabling the water to transfer the heat.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 20, 2017, 10:24:09 am
I thought the whole point of water wetter was to keep water in contact and flooding past the nooks and crannies in the engine and keep the temperature below the boiling point of the cocktail?

 it is... is there something in this thread leading you to think otherwise? Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Mcfly on September 20, 2017, 08:00:46 pm
I thought the whole point of water wetter was to keep water in contact and flooding past the nooks and crannies in the engine and keep the temperature below the boiling point of the cocktail?

 it is... is there something in this thread leading you to think otherwise? Steve

Mention of steam.... water wetter lowering boiling point and similar discussions add confusion.

Good to remember the cocktail has coolant in the mix to raise the boiling point, as well as a pressurized system to
Increase that boiling point further....  well above normal operating temps.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 20, 2017, 09:18:37 pm


Mention of steam.... water wetter lowering boiling point and similar discussions add confusion.

Good to remember the cocktail has coolant in the mix to raise the boiling point, as well as a pressurized system to
Increase that boiling point further....  well above normal operating temps.

  Ahh, I didn't get that. The mention of steam holes was illustrating that sand cast cooling jackets typically have hot spots due to flow impediments, and sometimes other methods need to be employed to relieve the cavitation. Since we're not drilling on our c-14 heads, we need to rely on the goodness that water wetter brings to the cocktail. Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on September 21, 2017, 03:52:19 am
Is C14 open or closed deck head/block?

Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: connie_rider on September 21, 2017, 01:37:08 pm
Ya'll are overthinkin'.   :sign0023:

His mix has been used for years in the C-10's, and helped..

Just do it, or don't..   :popcorn:

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: barberman on September 21, 2017, 05:33:58 pm
THIS IS OUTSTANDING information. A buddy swears by ice" but at around fity bucks a quart. I think c14's take 31/2? This sounds like a great option.  This is one of the best discussions i've read.  -- I have joined in the forum here, but this talk makes me seriously consider joining up fully.  Which speaks volumes if you know me. Not a team player" as such..Thanks guys! K.Jenson.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: JDSCO on September 21, 2017, 07:10:21 pm
Ya'll are overthinkin'.   :sign0023:
Just do it, or don't..   :popcorn:
Ride safe, Ted

Indeed!
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 21, 2017, 07:26:31 pm
 :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:  ... it's the reasons forums exist.  :-[

Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: rcannon409 on September 21, 2017, 11:23:39 pm
Excellent info.

A few years back, we got called in to solve an equipment issue for that really big coffee chain you see on every corner.

They were tired of their mineral filled water damaging expensive coffee making quipment.  Aparently the sediment would attach itself, to the warmer, and make it impossible to reach required temperatures.  Very important when each location needs to serve the identical cup of coffee.

Of course, the customer knows best.  They wanted the cleanest, most pure water mankind has ever known, and they paid to get it.

Within three months, they complained of defective copper tubing..it leaked.  Pinholes. After the tubing was replaced, sections of the machines were disappearing.  Holes in steel.

Now they use a nice, clean, filtered and ph balanced water.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: rrsperry on September 29, 2017, 11:46:20 pm


I don't know what temps you work with, for all I know you work with nuclear reactors, but I would assume if water is the primary coolant medium, and the temps are below boiling, then water wetter or a similar chemical compound would be useless.

 Steve
[/quote

Actually Steve controlled moderate boiling will increase cooling because of the heat absorbed to turn the water to steam. Obviously too much at a localized area would not be good but with really high velocity flow boiling helps. I'm not referring to engines though but some of the test equipment we work with a little moderate boiling is allowable. Bulk water temperature is way below boiling but localized boiling is OK if the flow velocity keeps new cool water coming.
[/quote]

Ahhhh, takes me back to Nuc power school. The departure from nucleate boiling...
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Daytona_Mike on September 30, 2017, 02:11:51 am
Quote
and kaw had to nikasil the aluminum to go as large as they did
That is why low quality fuels should be avoided in Kaw engines.
My KTM's run    Nikasil cylinders.

All fuels today are ALL  very very low  to no sulfur fuels  in the U.S.  and Canada (and Europe)   including all diesel fuels so it seems to me this point is no longer valid.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: bobgroger on October 11, 2017, 12:21:22 am
The Nikasil problem ended in the late 90's. There were a bunch of engines, particularly BMW 4.4L V8s that has a problem with the high sulfuric fuels from cheapo refiners causing sulfuric acid that corroded the cylinders particularly the top and caused low compression. BMW replaced thousands of engines with "improved" Alusil blocks. Interestingly Porsche also used Nikasil and had no problems. Maybe their owners didn't fill up at the Quicky Mart? AT any rate the problem went away as the EPA mandated lowering the sulfur content and sulfur was totally gone by 2006.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: JimBob on October 11, 2017, 06:59:42 pm
Quote
and kaw had to nikasil the aluminum to go as large as they did

That is why low quality fuels should be avoided in Kaw engines.



Can you expand on this Roadkill? How does poor quality fuel (<definition needed>) affect Nikasil?

[url]https://www.torquecars.com/bmw/nikasil-issue.php[/url] ([url]https://www.torquecars.com/bmw/nikasil-issue.php[/url])
[url]http://jagrepair.com/NikasilandSulfur.htm[/url] ([url]http://jagrepair.com/NikasilandSulfur.htm[/url])
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil[/url])


Cheers...



Thanks - interesting reading.


Is Nikasil the same/similar coating GM used on the 141ci aluminum engines they used in the Vega back in the 70's?
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: NukeWorker on October 15, 2017, 10:31:21 am
Got a question

   Use appx 15% non silicate coolant of your choice--- about 16 to 20 oz.

      4-6 oz of a product named "water wetter"
 
      The balance of fill will be DISTILLED water.

  Steve
is that 16-20 oz. of coolant the 50/50 mix, or if using 50/50 mix would I double it to 32-40 oz of coolant?
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on October 15, 2017, 11:55:32 am
Got a question

   Use appx 15% non silicate coolant of your choice--- about 16 to 20 oz.

      4-6 oz of a product named "water wetter"
 
      The balance of fill will be DISTILLED water.

  Steve
is that 16-20 oz. of coolant the 50/50 mix, or if using 50/50 mix would I double it to 32-40 oz of coolant?

if using 50/50 you'ld have to double it. Steve
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: NukeWorker on October 15, 2017, 12:06:47 pm
 :great:
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: C5dad on December 31, 2017, 02:07:22 am
Hey gang,

Fwiw, the water wetter is designed to reduce the film thickness of the cooling fluids within the cooling system.  The film thickness of fluids on both sides of the radiators are calculated to determine heat exchange capacity.

As a Chem E, I was tortured in heat exchanger theory and design for multiple semesters though my senior design project.  I don't have my texts or handbooks available, but given the two alcohols and additives, the viscosity wil be reduced and thus reducing film thickness which in turn improves heat exchange from the coolant to the atmosphere.

As for the water - DI vs distilled, it's pretty well discussed.  I worked in an Ultrapure water lab for the semiconductor industry doing research.  Let's just say that the 18Mohm water made great coffee by extracting every last nanogram of caffeine and flavor.  Even regular coffee tasted good. But, the consequence was the damage it did to the coffee pot.  Ya got to leave a little something in thee otherwise the Universal solvent will come to equilibrium with the metals in our engine (pitting).

Steve, I'll need to do some calcs to see if this blend is good for me in AZ.  I do know a common misting nozzle spraying onto the fins works well on my F250 dragging a trailer uphill in the heat.

Oh the joys of Chemistry.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: CRocker on December 31, 2017, 04:49:37 am
I'm pretty basic...and, here's what I know...I bought Jim Snyder's C-10, and he said it has Steve's Coolant cocktail in it...it is the coolest running C-10 I have ever seen.

Don't know why it wouldn't work in a C-14. 

As far as I am concerned...end of story.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: WillyP on December 31, 2017, 03:27:14 pm

Is Nikasil the same/similar coating GM used on the 141ci aluminum engines they used in the Vega back in the 70's?

The Vega engines didn't have a coating, it was impregnated into the aluminum. Then after the block was cast the cylinder walls were etched to expose the silicon.
Title: Re: Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.
Post by: Brooke_Benfield_OR on December 31, 2017, 09:31:40 pm
Porsche made this process work just fine in the 928. GM...not so well.

Sadly, the Vega engine was pretty solid (iron or steel liners) by the time 1976 rolled around but the damage to the reputation of the car was done and so it was killed. I always thought it was a far better looking car than the Pinto.

My ex-wife bought John DeLoreans' book years ago and he stated that the suspension/front end collapsed on the first two Vegas to roll off the assembly line. GM sure put the "K" in quality back then.

Ok back on topic with the next post.  ;D