Coolant cocktail - a more efficient cooling system.

[RoadKillHeaven]

And...everyone is so preoccupied with coolant "cocktail" forgetting that proper pressure in cooling systems is vital ...Why?

[MAN OF BLUES]

I don't think anyone has discounted the pressurization aspect whatsoever, it was, and is, a discussion about coolants, being used in an otherwise correctly sealed and working coolant system.  Which operates within the pressure specifications of the cap, and connections.

[Jeff Kerkow]

Someone asked if Deionized or Distilled water is better.  The terms get used in place of each other.  Distilled means boiled and then condensing the steam leaving the minerals behind via that process. Deionized typically means removing the minerals via a resin or other methods. As an example your softener is a deionizer with resin designed to remove calcium as an example. For the purpose of blending with radiator coolant either is going to be fine. Always add your coolant additive. Distilled or deionized water in its pure state is corrosive and more so as it is heated.

De ionized water is more than a resin or filtering operation... its an electrolytic process, which breaks down, and recombines the water molecule.. and by the process changes the "ionization" point or potential for electrolysis, of the water... IMHO, its not something to be used in a coolant mixture, as its properties have the molecule "looking for something to fill" the disruption of the covalent bonds within the molecule... as soon as this water comes in contact with raw aluminum, and brass, and steel, all the materials found in mechanical parts of an engine and its system.... de ionized water changes form... and is no longer de ionized, matter of fact, it becomes more ionically reactjve than tap water... because tap waters molecule isn't "looking" for something to fill the valences in the bonds... now, I'm not saying to use tap water, just saying de ionized water becomes more reactive, and does pick up the metalic salts, and chemicals, from the metals, when heated under pressure...
Destilled water is just that, boiled, and the condensate "stilled out" to re condense, into somewhat pure state, and some, not a lot, but some minerals are present... that said, its the choice for use, as it is les reactive, and picks up much less ionization creating a more stabil mix, for a longer period, from the start of use...

25 Years in the purified water industry but Rich knows more. Typical tap water created using weak bed Cation and Anion resin creates deionized water in the 25 - 200 Kohm/cm range, using strong bed Cation and Anion resin makes deionized water in 200 Kohm/cm cm to 1 Megohm/cm range that is all it takes no other steps. Purified water generated with a multiple effect still will also be in the 200 Kohm to 1 Megohm/cm range.  You can make higher purity water with mixed-bed deionization or other deionization processes but that is not what you are buying in the store.

The main point here, in this application is, if it is low purity deionized water, high purity deionized water, or distilled water, when you blend it with the coolant the analysis for the blended coolant will all be within specification and work fine. Higher purity water will not effect your final coolant blend or the ability of the coolant to perform properly.

Distilled or Deionized water without coolant blended will react with the metal material in your system and shorten its life.

I have made a living interchanging the technologies depending on the industry and application and in this application it does not matter.

In this case Rich your humble opinion is wrong.

[MAN OF BLUES]

 

Well Jeff, I stand corrected... and appologise.

Please tell me tho, if using DI water alone, would have the effect I noted, as having a higher reactive effect downstream, after it cycles for let's say, maybe six monthes... not talking about a mix with coolant additives, just the water part.
I am curious, as a casual person. My questions are based on chemestry classes using reagent grades of DI, which are basically a bit cost prohibitive for use in radiators and batteries as such.
Also, in my more youthful engineering positions, developing water cooled resistive MRI body scanners, our experiments showed a larger incidence of ionic recombination of drawn out metals, (copper, and aluminum) when we experimented on using it in a sealed system for cooling the magnets, and we found distilled, or "double distilled" water as a better choice, then we ended up using some exotic combos of alcohol, and water, and prioritized ingredients to provide the least damage... just about the time we devloped the superfonductive cryogen filled MRI systems...
We saw some interesting effects during the foolant tests, as MRI was new, and the coolants used, did actually effect the quality of the imaging

But I do thank you for the explanations, I guess it does coincide with our findings back in 1980 in some respects, based on resistivity of the water itself.

[Fred_Wa2gzw]

Water Question??  Is the water extracted from the air such as the water collected by a dehumidifier free of impurities and safe to use??

[Ranger Jim]

Given that distilled water is so inexpensive, why would you want to risk it?

[Ranger Jim]

BTW & FWIW, I used Steve's cocktail in my C10 from the time I first heard about it until I sold it (probably 10=12 years) and NEVER had any issues with overheating even when my water pump crapped out on me coming through Atlanta one June. Temps would get to the upper range (but not into the red zone) in the traffic but would cool back down once I could get above 35 mph.

[Jeff Kerkow]

Rich

The reagent grade water you used in the lab was more than likely 18 Megohm/cm.  When you expose that water to atmosphere it equalizes with CO2 in the air and the quality drops to 720Kohm and it also become acidic when this happens.

If you used Deionized water on a brand new cooling system it will be attack the soft metals. How long is hard to tell. It takes very little of the metal to become sacrificial and stop the process. The ions balance out and the water no longer attack the metals.  Simple things like opening or allowing the system to breath allowing Oxygen and CO2 to enter may also increase the corrosive process.

I have had customers not knowing the corrosive properties of deionized corrode through a copper fitting in less than a month while other places run for years and not have an issue. The ones that run for years typically have run regular tap water through the pipes first and the Deionized water is attacking that not the piping.

Drifting way off topic here.

This is back on topic

I would be interested if someone would send me links to some white papers or scholarly articles supporting the "wet water" application.  I have to do tons and tons of industrial cooling and even a small percentage of improved heat transfer would mean lots of savings and I have yet to see it used in a commercial application. To be honest I am skeptical of its performance.

[Jeff Kerkow]

Water Question??  Is the water extracted from the air such as the water collected by a dehumidifier free of impurities and safe to use??

Water collected from a Dehumidifier is typically full of air born particulates as the air is typically blown across a coil as it condenses the dirt ends up in the water. These particulates are smaller than you can see but still end up in your system.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Rich

To be honest I am skeptical of its performance.

wow, well, Ok. Thanks. I'll have to assume my many many experiences with the product has been unique and placebo effect.

 ETA... in case your understanding is that the water wetter is the cooling medium, here is what I wrote in post 2

    " So here's why it works as well as it does... the water is really the heat transfer product, which is why we want such a high concentration of it. We need distilled water so as to not introduce minerals that can attack the metals of the cooling system. The coolant is to prevent freezing down to maybe 20*, raise the boiling point and also it will prevent metal damage. The water wetter is a surfactant that allows the water to flow into the small crevices of the cooling passages (water jacket) and prevents the water from localized nucleate boiling. It also will help keep the system clean and prevent metal erosion."

  I don't know what temps you work with, for all I know you work with nuclear reactors, but I would assume if water is the primary coolant medium, and the temps are below boiling, then water wetter or a similar chemical compound would be useless.

 Steve

[MAN OF BLUES]

Rich

To be honest I am skeptical of its performance.

wow, well, Ok. Thanks. I'll have to assume my many many experiences with the product has been unique and placebo effect.. Steve

Don't take this in the wrong way, as I understand what Jeff is saying, and also what watter wetter accomplishes, the systems he is speaking of are somewhat different, and cold /hot cycling on an engine, does differ from trying to keep a "consistant state of cooling on machine applications in many respects... I also have to comment that it was notable he did speak about CO2 and O2 effects of using DI water, both of which do effect performance, and corrosion liabilities to some effect.  Large instrumentation cooling, and "steady state machinery" cooled with industrial heat exchange units do not see the massive swings in temperature that motor vehicles see, swings of 120* + in machinery or kndustrial applications are rare, as they are robustly sized, stationary systems, over spec'd to keep donstant temps... unlike an m/c engine that is thrashed thru cycles of 70* to 235* within moments.
All have different needs,  as I mentioned briefly in one post above, MRI cooling I designed, had a max temp swing of about 80* delta, and if larger swings were present, it was construed as a major malfunction.. then, onto nuclear reactor technology, say, Navy ships, and power stations, where it takes a 200* swing to make people really nervous... in industrial applications numerous "stopgap" measures are taken, thru additional pumping systems, massive cooling "heat transfer" equipment, (coolant flowing thru radiators and or coils, that are also pre cooled with fluids, and even cryogens) to control heat runaway..

So I understand his point, and also yours, and not discounting the effects of enhanced cooling by use of water wetter, on a small moving machine, nor am I saying it would be cost effective for use, in a 70 ton chiller, used for indusrial usage...

Good conversation for sure..

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Don't take this in the wrong way, as I understand what Jeff is saying, and also what watter wetter accomplishes, the systems he is speaking of are somewhat different, and cold /hot cycling on an engine, does differ from trying to keep a "consistant state of cooling on machine applications in many respects... I also have to comment that it was notable he did speak about CO2 and O2 effects of using DI water, both of which do effect performance, and corrosion liabilities to some effect.  Large instrumentation cooling, and "steady state machinery" cooled with industrial heat exchange units do not see the massive swings in temperature that motor vehicles see, swings of 120* + in machinery or kndustrial applications are rare, as they are robustly sized, stationary systems, over spec'd to keep donstant temps... unlike an m/c engine that is thrashed thru cycles of 70* to 235* within moments.
All have different needs,  as I mentioned briefly in one post above, MRI cooling I designed, had a max temp swing of about 80* delta, and if larger swings were present, it was construed as a major malfunction.. then, onto nuclear reactor technology, say, Navy ships, and power stations, where it takes a 200* swing to make people really nervous... in industrial applications numerous "stopgap" measures are taken, thru additional pumping systems, massive cooling "heat transfer" equipment, (coolant flowing thru radiators and or coils, that are also pre cooled with fluids, and even cryogens) to control heat runaway..

So I understand his point, and also yours, and not discounting the effects of enhanced cooling by use of water wetter, on a small moving machine, nor am I saying it would be cost effective for use, in a 70 ton chiller, used for indusrial usage...

Good conversation for sure..

  that's funny Rich - We cross posted, I just did an edit while you were typing, so I know you hadn't seen it. It seems we're on the same page. The big difference in this conversation is that y'all are engineers and well educated in the subject, and I'm about to fly the white flag and pull my "I'm just a dumb mechanic" card    Steve

[RoadKillHeaven]

It is known, automotive cooling system consists of electrochemically incompatible materials.  Deionized water has curious property conducting electricity thus increasing chances of electrolysis within cooling system.
Also, distilled water has very strong propensity to absorb minerals it comes in contact with. Using DI or DS water without proper additive package is detrimental to efficiency of cooling system.

[Jeff Kerkow]

We have small cooling units dedicated to specific tools that have challenging heat transfer applications.  I really wanted this to be a solution. They currently run just DI water with a small amount of additive to keep it from being corrosive. I was hoping to find more documentation to support this.  I still may give this a try on the small units.  But man o man if I could get 2 degrees out of the 1200 + tons of cooling I have now I would be a hero.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

We have small cooling units dedicated to specific tools that have challenging heat transfer applications.  I really wanted this to be a solution. They currently run just DI water with a small amount of additive to keep it from being corrosive. I was hoping to find more documentation to support this.  I still may give this a try on the small units.  But man o man if I could get 2 degrees out of the 1200 + tons of cooling I have now I would be a hero.

So based on how water wetter works, unless you're having localized boiling / cavitation, it's not going to do better than what you have. OTOH, you seem to have supported what I posted about water being the best medium for heat transfer. steve

[olie]

reading some of these postings, it looks like we have chemical and thermal properties voodoo...

.... so, what is/are the magical chemical component(s) in the "water wetter" that magically improve the Cp of the ethylene glycol /water mixture?  ... btw way, I read the Redline MSDS...

Dilsopropyl alcohol ether: 1-40%
Tri isopropyl alcohol diether: 1-40%
Sodium molybdate: 2-10%
Tolyltriazole: 1-3%
Polysiloxane polymer: n/a
(there are CAS#'s for those)

[Jorge]

Rich, Jeff... PLEASE STOP!  I'm getting flashbacks to my 8 AM chemistry class ( I commuted, across Chicago, so I had to leave home at ~6:30 AM). Please no more

JK, of course. Great discussion in which I learned stuff i will not remember in on week. Hopefully not tru, adn I will retain some of it, but I do appreciate the discussion   

[Derek]

   If you are in a climate that has cold winters, you may want to bump up the coolant volume to maybe 30%, but understand you're reducing the ability to shed heat, too.

  Steve

For us "northerners"  that you recomend bumping the coolant to 30%, any guesses what that will lower the freeze point to?  I'm in Ontario where we can get cold... 0 to -20ish Celsius (32 to -4F)  on average and occasional -40C (-40F).   Obviously not riding  in those temps but the bike is sitting in a unheated garage.  Wouldn't want to have to drain the coolant cocktail every winter.

[olie]

.... all you need to know except the voodoo....

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html

[Jim Snyder]

I have been running Steve's coolant cocktail in my C-10 for several years. My temp gauge rarely gets above the first notch on the
cold side of the gauge. And by no means am I what you call easy on the throttle. Bottom line is it works.

[Derek]

.... all you need to know except the voodoo....

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html

According to that chart.... I should be running about 53% glycol not 30%

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

.... all you need to know except the voodoo....

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html

According to that chart.... I should be running about 53% glycol not 30%

 Derek, the point of this thread was for guys in really hot climates, the ability to shed heat and the misconception that fan "on" temp would help the engine run cooler.  Steve

[Derek]

 Derek, the point of this thread was for guys in really hot climates, the ability to shed heat and the misconception that fan "on" temp would help the engine run cooler.  Steve

Too bad, it seemed really hot up here the other day... 28C (82f) and blasting down the highway at 120 KPH (75 mph) with the windshield fully up I was running 1 bar from the top which I have never seen before.  When I got off the highway temp gauge returned to its normal range (half mark or 1 above).  I was hoping this cocktail would help.... guess I'll just stick to the normal (for Canada) flush and re-fill at 50/50 mix....eh!

thanks

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

 Derek, the point of this thread was for guys in really hot climates, the ability to shed heat and the misconception that fan "on" temp would help the engine run cooler.  Steve

Too bad, it seemed really hot up here the other day... 28C (82f) and blasting down the highway at 120 KPH (75 mph) with the windshield fully up I was running 1 bar from the top which I have never seen before.  When I got off the highway temp gauge returned to its normal range (half mark or 1 above).  I was hoping this cocktail would help.... guess I'll just stick to the normal (for Canada) flush and re-fill at 50/50 mix....eh!

thanks

Somethings wrong with your bike, to run that hot at 82*. Probably a stuck thermostat and all you're cooling is coming from the bypass. Steve

[Derek]

Somethings wrong with your bike, to run that hot at 82*. Probably a stuck thermostat and all you're cooling is coming from the bypass. Steve

I better get that looked at.... my extended warranty runs out on the 27th.... or just change it myself.
Thanks