Author Topic: Crush washer sizes and sources  (Read 1051 times)

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Offline 4Bikes

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Crush washer sizes and sources
« on: February 13, 2019, 02:51:43 pm »
I know Murph sells the oil drain plug crush washers.  I was in search of the final drive crush washers part # 92022-1086.  The visit to the normal Kawi parts sites show that purchasing 5 individual washers with shipping costs $21.50 to $24.00. 

So not liking that, I go to Amazon and find this Copper crush washer kit in assorted sizes M5 M6 M8 M10 M12 M14 M16 M20 with quantities for each size ranging from 15 to 30 Pieces.  $13.99 and free shipping.  Seemed like a no brainer, but I'm interested to know if anybody has an even better option?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CZBNBNT/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Hope this helps someone else….
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Offline CRocker

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2019, 03:37:33 pm »
That might be exactly what I'm looking for...

The washer you mention 92022-1086 shows it to be     WASHER,8.2X16X1

The 8mm washers in the kit are not the exact size...but, I wouldn't be afraid to try them... :beerchug:

Offline Gixerhp

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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2019, 04:32:08 pm »
Thanks John.   Good point and glad I asked.  Still liking your Switchback lights   :beerchug:  See you at the national.. 
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Offline Daboo

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2019, 05:53:53 pm »
I'll be branded a heretic for this, but I don't replace my crush washer unless I lose it.  If I lose my crush washer, I'd go to the nearest auto parts store with the drain bolt and buy two new ones. 

Why would anyone buy 200 crush washers?  Even 40, since only one size will fit the bike? 


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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2019, 06:34:33 pm »
The C-14 takes two sizes of crush washer.  The reason for buying so many ( I know I will never use them all) is because it's a kit and you can get so many for the price of shipping just one washer.  I  tried the auto parts stores and they do not sell crush washers that fit the final drive.  I wont argue that crush washers cant be reused with success.  It's purpose is to be a gasket and smash a bit to seal and prevent leaks.  Once its smashed its smashed and may or may not make a proper seal.  Note that Aluminum crush washers crush a lot more than Copper.  I have not replaced a crush washer each time (mainly the final drive) and had no leaks.  But I do replace them periodically.  The same one forever, could be pushing luck?  Who knows for sure?     
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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2019, 06:48:07 pm »
Here's a nice thread I found:
https://www.twtex.com/forums/threads/purpose-of-a-crush-washer.5530/

I reuse mine and replace them when I lose them or they look funky.
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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2019, 07:02:48 pm »
That threads explains some of it, thanks.   Not sure I would want to deal with a leak for an entire oil change cycle, or have the final drive leak on the real wheel before I got to this point?

Snip for that thread: Yep, the crush washer is intended to provide a better seal for the drain plug. I've always just clean and re-used them until they start to leak.
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Offline Skiee

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2019, 09:29:09 pm »
I just recently did a oil/final drive change last week. Found mine on Ebay. 10 for $10. My first one lasted the 5yrs. I've had the bike. Didn't leak, just looked "funky".
I've got 45 yrs. of washers I guess!?! 🙄
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2019, 09:33:50 pm »
The C-14 takes two sizes of crush washer.  The reason for buying so many ( I know I will never use them all) is because it's a kit and you can get so many for the price of shipping just one washer.  I  tried the auto parts stores and they do not sell crush washers that fit the final drive.  I wont argue that crush washers cant be reused with success.  It's purpose is to be a gasket and smash a bit to seal and prevent leaks.  Once its smashed its smashed and may or may not make a proper seal.  Note that Aluminum crush washers crush a lot more than Copper.  I have not replaced a crush washer each time (mainly the final drive) and had no leaks.  But I do replace them periodically.  The same one forever, could be pushing luck?  Who knows for sure?   

My Autozone and Advance Auto (and also my NAPA stores) carry these, they are in a pack on a hook... like $2.50 for 5pcs... some are copper, some are aluminum...
I don't have any issue using the copper ones, and in truth, they are actually softer, and seal better than the aluminum ones I have... the copper take much less torque to smash/seal IMHO.
I hate paying "shipping" for something like this, when I can take a 20 minute round trip, while it's draining, and have them in hand and installed immediately.

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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2019, 11:48:04 pm »
As far as how “squishy” or sealing the properties of an Aluminum versus Copper crush washer are might depend upon thickness. My only experience with copper crush washers is with German engineering on an Audi. That crush washer was paper thin so no mass to squash. The Aluminum crush washers sold by Murph are much thicker, so I assume squash more. Not sure if an Aluminum washer should be paired with aluminum surfaces, but that could be a factor. One more thing to figure out to put the best parts on Concours?
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2019, 12:50:49 am »
 :)) :))

funny this all popped up, I was at Advance Auto about an hour ago, to pick up some IsoHeet to add to my  100% gas...

went over to the "wall hanger/Dorman/Help products", and saw 4 different versions of copper seal washers by the brake bleeders and Banjo bolts, 2 of which were the right size...
snapped a pic on my cellphone, but I have to "shrink" to post up, they were all about 1/16" thick, perfect...
all those copper ones are made of "dead soft" copper, very soft.
Going back in history, the crush washers used by all Bike companies, until recent years, were ALL copper, the ones used on brakelines and oil lines, and combined with the plated Banjo bolts (zinc, or cad plated steel) threaded into aluminum castings, were never an issue.. now consider the fact that brake fluid absorbs water "highly", and even today copper is the "standard" used for those washers... there is still no issue..

This whole "aluminum" seal washer came a a result of the closedown of some major copper mines just over 20 year ago, copper prices skyrocketed, and thus washer manufacturers went to aluminum, as it was soooo cheap, and we had megatons of recycled to use..
The power "industry"I was involved in, used mega amounts of huge copper wire, and copper flat bar a conductors, and we suffered cost increases on copper like 5x prices.    this led to the increased usage of aluminum wire/cable, and the resultant effects of an "inferior" conductor..comparably..

most people couldn't tell you this evolution.. :rotflmao:
 I do apologize tho, the 2 pack was $2.99, the 8 pack was $4.99
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 01:18:19 am by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2019, 04:00:47 am »
Will a close enough fit work? I have a 16X21X2.3 crush washer I get from my local car dealer for my oil changes. $0.90 each. I usually buy a handfull at a time. I'll try it on my next C14 oil change.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2019, 02:37:53 pm »
Personally, I find the idea of calling an aluminum flat washer a "crush" washer a misnomer. A good example of a true crush washer is like the type used on the head of the engine where the exhaust header is bolted. Those washers are made out of tubular copper and the washer is crushed in the process of tightening and can only be used once. A flat aluminum washer used on an oil drain plug can be used many times and unless it's really boogered up it'll never leak.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2019, 04:36:33 pm »
Will a close enough fit work? I have a 16X21X2.3 crush washer I get from my local car dealer for my oil changes. $0.90 each. I usually buy a handfull at a time. I'll try it on my next C14 oil change.

Harry,
4Bikes was asking specifically about a washer for the rear hub drain bolt, so I directed
to that, but also for the other drain plugs you can measure the bolt, and / or take it or the old washer with you for comparison...
Most or all of these drain bolts today, have a larger washer face "formed" onto the underside of the Hex, and also have "concentric/annular grooves" on that face;
This assists in "sealing" the 'softer' washer... as long a the bolt fits thru, with minimal clearance ( like maybe .010"-.020") and also extends to the outer diameter of the face on the bolt head, it's fine...




Personally, I find the idea of calling an aluminum flat washer a "crush" washer a misnomer. A good example of a true crush washer is like the type used on the head of the engine where the exhaust header is bolted. Those washers are made out of tubular copper and the washer is crushed in the process of tightening and can only be used once. A flat aluminum washer used on an oil drain plug can be used many times and unless it's really boogered up it'll never leak.

Yeah, it's a "name" thing, and I understand the difference (like the washer on a sparkplug), but in reality it' called a "sealing" washer... but we still call them crush washers..  as a "soft" sealing washer does "squish"... especially the copper ones; again, it's a personal preference, but I seldom if ever will use an aluminum one... a it takes a higher torque to seal it, and I don't like torquing on drain bolts/plugs that fit in aluminum tapped holes.. It may sound odd, but many bike specific "sealing" washers appear to something other than copper, but if you examine them after use, and lay on on a piece of sandpaper, and "scrub" the face, you will find it was just a plating (usually zinc) and does not effect the "squish"..

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2019, 05:05:12 pm »
https://www.mcmaster.com/hardware

20+ bikes, 5 cages, 1 parts book does most of the little bits.

yep, that's my "go to" supply for hardware...
but the quantities you end up with are overkill....

I was going to note a "sealing" washer option from MC, that has a bonded "O'-ring in the center, but I chose not to "toss" that stuff out, as if I suggested one, I'd have to stress on what people buy, and do with it.. and also stress having to drill holes in the hex on the bolt, to apply "lock wires" to prevent bolt loss.. just as a safety thing...

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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2019, 05:21:09 pm »
Personally, I find the idea of calling an aluminum flat washer a "crush" washer a misnomer. A good example of a true crush washer is like the type used on the head of the engine where the exhaust header is bolted. Those washers are made out of tubular copper and the washer is crushed in the process of tightening and can only be used once. A flat aluminum washer used on an oil drain plug can be used many times and unless it's really boogered up it'll never leak.

Murph seems to agree with you since he calls them Oil Drain Plug Gaskets.  If you search his site for crush washers, you will only get brake line crush washers. 

https://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?cPath=130_136&products_id=240&osCsid=6gkClRQPpqI7afwEujFDa1
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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2019, 07:33:02 pm »
Personally, I find the idea of calling an aluminum flat washer a "crush" washer a misnomer. A good example of a true crush washer is like the type used on the head of the engine where the exhaust header is bolted. Those washers are made out of tubular copper and the washer is crushed in the process of tightening and can only be used once. A flat aluminum washer used on an oil drain plug can be used many times and unless it's really boogered up it'll never leak.

Murph seems to agree with you since he calls them Oil Drain Plug Gaskets.  If you search his site for crush washers, you will only get brake line crush washers. 

https://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?cPath=130_136&products_id=240&osCsid=6gkClRQPpqI7afwEujFDa1

Well, that's more like it. I'm getting more edumicated on this stuff everyday.
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Offline BadgerApaches

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2019, 06:04:01 pm »
https://www.mcmaster.com/hardware

20+ bikes, 5 cages, 1 parts book does most of the little bits.

yep, that's my "go to" supply for hardware...
but the quantities you end up with are overkill....


Well, yes and no.

I use these crush washers as single use washers; the crush aspect is designed for a specific tension/torque for thread tensions with fluids involved.   

Lots of folks disagree with that. It's a minor expense. Either way the McMasters catalog is an incredible resource while we still have it around, even just when using it for reference. 
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Offline JPD

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2019, 09:58:42 pm »
To me a crush washers are copper or aluminium with a tube or c shaped cross section that will be flattened during tightening. They are for one time use.

Solid sealing washers are a thick plain washed made of a soft alloy of copper or aluminium that will deform to fill small surface variations in the bolt head or the boss it screws into. Brake banjo bolts with seal washers, oil drain plugs. They are made to be once but if they are not damaged or scored I don't see any reason to not use them over. We would re heat treat the copper washers that were used with aviation spark plugs by heating them with a torch to cherry red and cooling them in water.

A sealing ring washer combination trade name lock-o-seal is a steel washer with a rubber seal inside it. The seal gets squished between the washer, part, bolt shank, and bolt head. It is recommended that it is replaced every time due to damage to the rubber seal during removal. I might reuse it with a careful inspection for any damage or hardening to the rubber.

Of course terms may get cross utilized depending on the industry you are in.

Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2019, 12:57:29 am »
I received this kit today, a 2 day wait. Again, more crush washers than I can likely ever use for the price of one Kwai washer and shipping. I can now do 40 oil and final drive changes on the C-14 with a fresh washer and have a bunch more sizes for who knows what. Can’t go wrong with that?  I compared the crush washers with some used ones.  It jumped out at me that the the only difference is the used crush washers are deformed with grooves. Would I use them again, I think not.

https://www.amazon.com/Swordfish-32411-Automotive-Aluminum-Assortment/dp/B06XD58DZF/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1550076610&sr=1-1&keywords=Aluminum+crush+washers
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2019, 02:22:02 am »
 :lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :bravo_2: :bravo_2: :sorry: :sorry: :deadhorse: :pokestick: :pokestick: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :a012:

no Autozone/NAPA in your town I  see..


good job :great: :great: :great: :great: :great:
hope the right size was in there.. and hope you dont drop the open box on the floor

yer' the aluminum washer Barron now..

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:



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Offline BadgerApaches

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2019, 07:08:52 am »
:lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :bravo_2: :bravo_2: :sorry: :sorry: :deadhorse: :pokestick: :pokestick: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :a012:

no Autozone/NAPA in your town I  see..


good job :great: :great: :great: :great: :great:
hope the right size was in there.. and hope you dont drop the open box on the floor

yer' the aluminum washer Barron now..

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:



/
Quote

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Wtf?

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2019, 10:10:39 am »
:lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :lol_hitting: :bravo_2: :bravo_2: :sorry: :sorry: :deadhorse: :pokestick: :pokestick: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :85: :a012:

no Autozone/NAPA in your town I  see..


good job :great: :great: :great: :great: :great:
hope the right size was in there.. and hope you dont drop the open box on the floor

yer' the aluminum washer Barron now..

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:



/
Quote

General/ Tech section? Check.

OP with a valid query? Check.

Wtf?
That's just MOB's unique sense of humor. :-\  He's a jolly feller and laughs a lot! :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Crush washer sizes and sources
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2019, 12:49:01 pm »
Sort of like the rubber o-ring Barron? Maybe I should make a big deal out of my find, and then have Coggers mail me an envelope with some money and I’ll send them two o-rings. Then I’ll get tired of that, and have Murph take over. But wait.... Murph sells the oil drain plug washers. So Murph just needs to stock the final drive washers and we are done and no need for this threads like this.   :s_laugh:
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